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Scylla Rhiadra

The UnQueering of Second Life

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:

... who you found out later was not who they really were at all ... 

You mean, there are people who are little cartoon polygon figures in both worlds? Wow. And here I thought we were all a little bit different from our digital avatars.

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How about this for a moral imperative: Live and let live.

Oh, and do not, I repeat: do NOT do unto others as you wish to be done by, because others might have completely different tastes and expectations. Instead, treat them the way they want to be treated, as long as they're reasonable about it. Or, at the risk of repeating myself, simply leave them be. That might be the only thing that works for everyone.

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only the immoral, who pretend they are something they are not and use the limited technology of virtual worlds to hide behind a mask, intent on deception.

 

 

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how far does live and let live go?

isnt that back to morality again?

or does it mean someone could commit a crime against you and walk away free?

then we are just animals, reliant on law alone.

decency and mutual respect are gone.

 

 

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Even before I bother to read the last 27 pages of this stuff, I might ask why RL genders are any on anybody's damned business in SL.

If people can be expected to comply with demands for RL gender verification, then why not race verification?

Maybe people should be required to provide a statement as to whether they have any RL Jewish ancestors within 5 generations?

Whatever.

If I'm not supposed to care whether someone is "really a vampire", what right do I have to care whether they are really a natural redhead with massive boobs?

I usually tell other users that I just assume everyone is a 90 year old paraplegic transsexual who weighs 400 pounds.

It's just easier to think that way, and interact with people as they choose to be and as I choose to be.

The better question is not why we should trust people in SL about things that don't matter, but why we trust anybody in RL about things that do matter.

OTOH, if LL gets really good at policing genders (etc.) in SL, maybe they can extend their business to RL.

Is that what we want?

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Erm...SL is a game. Or, if you object to the term "game" - "a form of entertainment". One I pay good money to play, I might add. I might make friends here but that doesn't mean I'm obliged to interrupt my RP in order to reveal facts about my real-life if I don't care to, just because some poor schmucks can't distinguish between a 3D Internet platform (built as a form of amusement and not as a substitute for real life) and reality.

 

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:


Dogboat Taurog wrote:

... who you found out later was not who they really were at all ... 

You mean, there are people who are little cartoon polygon figures in both worlds? Wow. And here I thought we were all a little bit different from our digital avatars.

 

Boy, would I be curious to see a photo of Dogboat's avatar and a photo (clear, recent) of his RL operator...

signed,

One of the few who can honestly say that she's actually just a wee bitty better in RL.

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who would lie about their race or religion?

serious problem if they do.

so why lie about your gender if you are going to get involved in a "romantic" relationship with someone?

whats to hide?

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you could of course look at my inworld profile. thats what its there for...

as for a real life photo? you have to be joking.

show your " RL operator" in this forum if you like but don't expect mine.

ps. nice to see the subject moving from morality to vanity...:smileywink:

 

 

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Deltango Vale wrote:

From what I can see, your discussion with Dogboat is similar to one we had about a year ago. If I may quote myself, this time in your defense:

 

"The loose basket of Western values (Greco-Roman culture modified by monotheistic Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs) is not the dominant system in the world today, nor should it be. The value systems of ancient and modern Japan, China, India, Oceania, Africa and the indigenous peoples of the Americas and Australasia are older and as large if not larger than those of the West. To argue that Western values are superior to others is the height of arrogance. The belief that Western values should be imposed on the rest of the world is nothing less than moral bullying."

<snip>

I agree, but I'd like to add that the current set of Western morals and ethics are the exact opposite of traditional Judeo-Christian-Islamic morals. Many modern Christians have adopted them and now claim them for themselves as Christian values, but they were all pushed through against the will of the Churches and the Christian moral majority back in the day.

I'm speaking of the abolition of slavery, which was at least in the USA the result of a conflict between Lincoln's secular-agnostic mindset versus the convictions of Christian slaveholders who used the bible to justify slavery. And of course the social liberation of women. Gender equality is the polar opposite of the social values that are taught by the bible, the torah and the qu'ran.

Workers' rights are another example that is not easily reconciled with traditional Christian work ethics. Nor is the concept of welfare, considering Paul's "whoever does not work should not eat". Or the political concept of democracy, which is rooted in heathen (Greek and Roman) societies that predate the rise of Christianity, whereas traditional Christian principles include the divine rights of kings coupled with the unlimited moral and social authority of the clergy.

In short, modern Western values are all but religious values. They are secular in nature, born from the resistance against the authority of the church, against the supposedly god-given authority of monarchs, and against traditional Christian values in general. It's a bad joke that Christians nowadays claim them as their very own values and accomplishments, after they have been forced to cope with the disempowerment of the church, secular democratic rule, and greater social justice (a change for the better that is not yet complete, and which is still being opposed by conservative Christians).

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:

you could of course look at my inworld profile. thats what its there for...

as for a real life photo? you have to be joking.

show your " RL operator" in this forum if you like but don't expect mine.

ps. nice to see the subject moving from morality to vanity...:smileywink:

 

 

Bu...bu...but...I thought you had nothing to hide and that you'd spent half of this thread decrying any form of masking RL truth as deceipt, lying, fakery and immoral to boot????

 

If it isn't a game to you, it has to be real and if it's real, why on earth are you shy of showing your real face? Better "vain" (and, let's face it, I could hardly be worse than my avie) than utterly and completely inconsistent in my beliefs and loudly-voiced opinions.

*goes to mirror and slaps face for getting involved in this nonsensical, surreal, irrational conversation*

 

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

you could of course look at my inworld profile. thats what its there for...

as for a real life photo? you have to be joking.

show your " RL operator" in this forum if you like but don't expect mine.

ps. nice to see the subject moving from morality to vanity...:smileywink:

 

 

Bu...bu...but...I thought you had nothing to hide and that you'd spent half of this thread decrying any form of masking RL truth as deceipt, lying, fakery and immoral to boot????

 

If it isn't a game to you, it has to be real and if it's real, why on earth are you shy of showing your real face? Better "vain" (and, let's face it, I could hardly be worse than my avie) than utterly and completely inconsistent in my beliefs and loudly-voiced opinions.

*goes to mirror and slaps face for getting involved in this nonsensical, surreal, irrational conversation*

 

 

then you still dont understand carole, i suggest you slap your face again until you do.

 

 

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:

how far does live and let live go?

isnt that back to morality again?

or does it mean someone could commit a crime against you and walk away free?

then we are just animals, reliant on law alone.

decency and mutual respect are gone.

 

 

Live and let live ends where people are not inclined to let you live. It's a mutual thing. If you leave me alone, I also leave you be. But if you step on my toes, I'll seek satisfaction and compensation within the bounds of the law.

Mutual respect and decency works just the same way. I'm inclined to respect you and treat you in a decent way as long as you return the favor. If you show disrespect and insult me, I don't respect you anymore either.

Ironically, it is your golden rule (do unto others etc. pp.) that cannot be reconciled with the concept of law and order. What do you do when someone commits a crime against you? Do you treat the criminal like you would want to be treated in his situation? Do you really turn the other cheek when somebody harms you?

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:

as for a real life photo? you have to be joking. 

Ha! :smileyvery-happy: So much for honesty. How can you possibly expect other people to reveal details about their real life?

That's exactly what I meant with "live and let live". If you want anonymity for yourself, you'll have to grant the same to others.

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

you could of course look at my inworld profile. thats what its there for...

as for a real life photo? you have to be joking.

show your " RL operator" in this forum if you like but don't expect mine.

ps. nice to see the subject moving from morality to vanity...:smileywink:

 

 

Bu...bu...but...I thought you had nothing to hide and that you'd spent half of this thread decrying any form of masking RL truth as deceipt, lying, fakery and immoral to boot????

 

If it isn't a game to you, it has to be real and if it's real, why on earth are you shy of showing your real face? Better "vain" (and, let's face it, I could hardly be worse than my avie) than utterly and completely inconsistent in my beliefs and loudly-voiced opinions.

*goes to mirror and slaps face for getting involved in this nonsensical, surreal, irrational conversation*

 

Exactly. If Dogboat looks exactly like his avatar, we've all probably seen his RL face inworld. How would an RL photo reveal anything that we don't already know?

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:

only the immoral, who pretend they are something they are not and use the limited technology of virtual worlds to hide behind a mask, intent on deception.

 

 

Would you really believe me to be a pink-skinned transsexual elf in RL unless I told you otherwise? If I deceive you by role playing an elf in a fantasy world, you must be even more naive than I thought.

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Josh Susanto wrote:

Even before I bother to read the last 27 pages of this stuff, I might ask why RL genders are any on anybody's damned business in SL.

If people can be expected to comply with demands for RL gender verification, then why not race verification?

Maybe people should be required to provide a statement as to whether they have any RL Jewish ancestors within 5 generations?

Whatever.

If I'm not supposed to care whether someone is "really a vampire", what right do I have to care whether they are really a natural redhead with massive boobs?

I usually tell other users that I just assume everyone is a 90 year old paraplegic transsexual who weighs 400 pounds.

It's just easier to think that way, and interact with people as they choose to be and as I choose to be.

The better question is not why we should trust people in SL about things that don't matter, but why we trust anybody in RL about things that do matter.

OTOH, if LL gets really good at policing genders (etc.) in SL, maybe they can extend their business to RL.

Is that what we want?

That was exactly my point throughout the last 27 pages of this thread :) I'm not really sure why you ask me this. I can only wholeheartedly agree.

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This rather one-sided exchange with Dogboat reminds me of the people who chat me up and open the conversation with the question "are you really a transsexual? I mean, in RL too?" Nobody has ever bothered to ask if I really have pink skin, purple eyes or pointy ears. Or a 15 inch bleep, for that matter.

What they're essentially saying is "I can live with the thought that you have dangly bits in both worlds as long as you also have curves in addition. If not, you're not even worth talking to".  Way to respect another human being. I might as well ask them if they really have a sixpack in RL or more of a keg (although, ironically, most of them are fellow gender benders).

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you have what sounds like a female name.

if you have a female body then in all fairness i would assume you were a female.

as you have outed yourself i accuse you of being morally wrong.

 

 

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

This rather one-sided exchange with Dogboat reminds me of the people who chat me up and open the conversation with the question "are you really a transsexual? I mean, in RL too?" Nobody has ever bothered to ask if I really have pink skin, purple eyes or pointy ears. Or a 15 inch bleep, for that matter.

What they're essentially saying is "I can live with the thought that you have dangly bits in both worlds as long as you also have curves in addition. If not, you're not even worth talking to".  Way to respect another human being. I might as well ask them if they really have a sixpack in RL or more of a keg (although, ironically, most of them are fellow gender benders).

isn't that normal for you superficial  types? :smileyvery-happy:

 

 

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Recently was ask to voice, to prove gender, I don't mind voicing, but will not do it again as a statement. If you don't like b/c I won't voice tottaly based on gender then I am sorry.

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Ishtara Rothschild wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

you could of course look at my inworld profile. thats what its there for...

as for a real life photo? you have to be joking.

show your " RL operator" in this forum if you like but don't expect mine.

ps. nice to see the subject moving from morality to vanity...:smileywink:

 

 

Bu...bu...but...I thought you had nothing to hide and that you'd spent half of this thread decrying any form of masking RL truth as deceipt, lying, fakery and immoral to boot????

 

If it isn't a game to you, it has to be real and if it's real, why on earth are you shy of showing your real face? Better "vain" (and, let's face it, I could hardly be worse than my avie) than utterly and completely inconsistent in my beliefs and loudly-voiced opinions.

*goes to mirror and slaps face for getting involved in this nonsensical, surreal, irrational conversation*

 

Exactly. If Dogboat looks exactly like his avatar, we've all probably seen his RL face inworld. How would an RL photo reveal anything that we don't already know?

 

*slaps forehead*

OF COURSE!!!! Why didn't that occur to me??? If he's exactly like his avatar there would be absolutely no harm in showing his real-life photo in here!!!

If I keep slapping myself I'm going to end up scrambling my brain. Mind you, I might just start to "get" Dogboat then.

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

Ishtara Rothschild wrote:


Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

you could of course look at my inworld profile. thats what its there for...

as for a real life photo? you have to be joking.

show your " RL operator" in this forum if you like but don't expect mine.

ps. nice to see the subject moving from morality to vanity...:smileywink:

 

 

Bu...bu...but...I thought you had nothing to hide and that you'd spent half of this thread decrying any form of masking RL truth as deceipt, lying, fakery and immoral to boot????

 

If it isn't a game to you, it has to be real and if it's real, why on earth are you shy of showing your real face? Better "vain" (and, let's face it, I could hardly be worse than my avie) than utterly and completely inconsistent in my beliefs and loudly-voiced opinions.

*goes to mirror and slaps face for getting involved in this nonsensical, surreal, irrational conversation*

 

Exactly. If Dogboat looks exactly like his avatar, we've all probably seen his RL face inworld. How would an RL photo reveal anything that we don't already know?

 

*slaps forehead*

OF COURSE!!!! Why didn't that occur to me??? If he's exactly like his avatar there would be absolutely no harm in showing his real-life photo in here!!!

If I keep slapping myself I'm going to end up scrambling my brain. Mind you, I might just start to "get" Dogboat then.

 

umm your brain is already scrambled.

wheres your photo?

 

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