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Scylla Rhiadra

The UnQueering of Second Life

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This is me:

Vocaloid

 

Here I am playing a live concert in Japan:

 

You can see I am real because my hair doesn't go through my arms.

 

(I lied. Too bad.)

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

Yes, yes, yes, Totally agree. Shift the context to racial identity too, to get the full picture. To wander the SL world in a black skin, for example, when you're white in RL, is one of those things that everybody, including the newly-admitted minors maybe ought to be obliged to do. It's an interesting experience to feel that you are still "you" even when the colour of skin you have is darker.

To experiment with a different gender (something I have done also) is also an eye-opener. I see nothing wrong with it at all except a huge amount of potential benefits which I'd like to think might just rub off in real-life. 

 

This is not only a very interesting experiment to learn for yourself how others perceive us, but it is an EXCELLENT way to prove that no matter how much we think we've progressed above "visual stereotyping" .. we still haven't.

I've not only "busted" good friends whom I thought would not fall for such prejudice, but I myself have been busted too. It's a sobering moment when you suddenly realize how quickly you can fall into old habits and make judgements about people before they even utter a word.

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:

 

Ima Rang wrote:


Dogboat Taurog wrote:

 

Deltango Vale wrote:

From what I can see, your discussion with Dogboat is similar to one we had about a year ago. If I may quote myself, this time in your defense:


"The loose basket of Western values (Greco-Roman culture modified by monotheistic Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs) is not the dominant system in the world today, nor should it be. The value systems of ancient and modern Japan, China, India, Oceania, Africa and the indigenous peoples of the Americas and Australasia are older and as large if not larger than those of the West. To argue that Western values are superior to others is the height of arrogance. The belief that Western values should be imposed on the rest of the world is nothing less than moral bullying."

I remember so clearly visiting the central mosque in Cairo. A polite and charming student persistently sought to open my eyes to the 'true faith'. He reminded me of a Baptist friend in Louisiana who also tried to convert me to the 'true faith'. The language of both was surprisingly similar to that of Richard Dawkins, who is equally adamant about atheism. Everyone, it seems, thinks he knows the moral 'truth', with the bizarre twist that there is no universal agreement on that 'truth '. Universalism, funny enough, is not universal.


What I find strange is how this type of philosophical discussion arises in a virtual world specifically designed to be an escape from RL. Here we can be fashion models, medieval knights, cyborgs, foxes, cats, Pinocchio marionettes, watermelons, dragons, giant spiders, tiny elves, alpha-male gorillas, Amazon warrior women, corporate suits, steampunks and even RL doppelgangers. Surely, the very nature of SL screams fantasy. To confuse SL with RL - to expect SL to function as an extension of RL - especially when RL is fragmented into a thousand different cultures, each with its own social norms - is naive. As you wisely point out, SL is not a continuum of RL - it is not an email address or a website - it is a new world with new rules.

Because SL is a new world with new rules - with its social norms evolving from a combination of technological features (adjustable avatar appearance, TP, mute, fly, logout etc.) and a wide range of RL cultures - the border between SL and RL is translucent. We are all in Plato's cave with our backs to the door seeing only the shadows of RL dancing in firelight on the walls. Communication between SL and RL, therefore, will be murky at best. We all have to learn to live with this new 'Duality'.

 

what race, religion or lifestyle does not include decency and honesty?

only second life, and thats only because people can hide behind a mask.

the morally corrupt people have destroyed what could have been a great thing, the rule of thumb here is trust no-one, and its the few ignorant uncaring residents that have ruined it for everyone.

welcome to the house that jack built.

What race, religion or lifestyle does not include moral corruption, indecency and dishonesty? 

SL is not a race, religion, or lifestyle.  It is an online service that caters to imaginations.

 

 

for some, not for all. thats the huge glaring point many are missing.

and i meant civilised, race religion or lifestyle, im suprised i had to point that out.

 

Ahem ...

Jesuits pay record $166.1 million in child abuse case (from CNN.com)

Despite your fervent wishes to the contrary, corruption of all flavors .. including moral .. exists in EVERY arbitrary group of humans on this planet.

I'm surprised I had to point that out.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

 

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

 

Ima Rang wrote:


Dogboat Taurog wrote:

 

Deltango Vale wrote:

From what I can see, your discussion with Dogboat is similar to one we had about a year ago. If I may quote myself, this time in your defense:


"The loose basket of Western values (Greco-Roman culture modified by monotheistic Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs) is not the dominant system in the world today, nor should it be. The value systems of ancient and modern Japan, China, India, Oceania, Africa and the indigenous peoples of the Americas and Australasia are older and as large if not larger than those of the West. To argue that Western values are superior to others is the height of arrogance. The belief that Western values should be imposed on the rest of the world is nothing less than moral bullying."

I remember so clearly visiting the central mosque in Cairo. A polite and charming student persistently sought to open my eyes to the 'true faith'. He reminded me of a Baptist friend in Louisiana who also tried to convert me to the 'true faith'. The language of both was surprisingly similar to that of Richard Dawkins, who is equally adamant about atheism. Everyone, it seems, thinks he knows the moral 'truth', with the bizarre twist that there is no universal agreement on that 'truth '. Universalism, funny enough, is not universal.


What I find strange is how this type of philosophical discussion arises in a virtual world specifically designed to be an escape from RL. Here we can be fashion models, medieval knights, cyborgs, foxes, cats, Pinocchio marionettes, watermelons, dragons, giant spiders, tiny elves, alpha-male gorillas, Amazon warrior women, corporate suits, steampunks and even RL doppelgangers. Surely, the very nature of SL screams fantasy. To confuse SL with RL - to expect SL to function as an extension of RL - especially when RL is fragmented into a thousand different cultures, each with its own social norms - is naive. As you wisely point out, SL is not a continuum of RL - it is not an email address or a website - it is a new world with new rules.

Because SL is a new world with new rules - with its social norms evolving from a combination of technological features (adjustable avatar appearance, TP, mute, fly, logout etc.) and a wide range of RL cultures - the border between SL and RL is translucent. We are all in Plato's cave with our backs to the door seeing only the shadows of RL dancing in firelight on the walls. Communication between SL and RL, therefore, will be murky at best. We all have to learn to live with this new 'Duality'.

 

what race, religion or lifestyle does not include decency and honesty?

only second life, and thats only because people can hide behind a mask.

the morally corrupt people have destroyed what could have been a great thing, the rule of thumb here is trust no-one, and its the few ignorant uncaring residents that have ruined it for everyone.

welcome to the house that jack built.

What race, religion or lifestyle does not include moral corruption, indecency and dishonesty? 

SL is not a race, religion, or lifestyle.  It is an online service that caters to imaginations.

 

 

for some, not for all. thats the huge glaring point many are missing.

and i meant civilised, race religion or lifestyle, im suprised i had to point that out.

 

Ahem ...

(from CNN.com)

Despite your fervent wishes to the contrary, corruption of all flavors .. including moral .. exists in EVERY arbitrary group of humans on this planet.

I'm surprised I had to point that out.

 

are you saying jesuits don't think child abuse is immoral?

yes corruption exists, of course it does, who said it doesnt.?

 

 

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Ann Otoole wrote:

This is me:

Vocaloid

 

Here I am playing a live concert in Japan:

 

You can see I am real because my hair doesn't go through my arms.

 

(I lied. Too bad.)

they are real life photos surely, you can't fool me Miss Otoole.

 

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I saw your concert...it was fab!...and I love your video...it's my favorite...I even have it on my website...blushes...I know it's really you...shallow breaths...because I saw you at the usergroup...I was gonna ask for your autograph but I was scared to talk to you...you being a star and everything! :smileyhappy::smileyhappy::smileyhappy:

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Deltango Vale wrote:

I saw your concert...it was fab!...and I love your video...it's my favorite...I even have it on my website...blushes...I know it's really you...shallow breaths...because I saw you at the usergroup...I was gonna ask for your autograph but I was scared to talk to you...you being a star and everything! :smileyhappy::smileyhappy::smileyhappy:

See this is how lies can go totally wrong. All because of that vocaloid avatar I wear I have one person is calling me waifu and then all this. Even though I SAID I LIED people don't want to hear it. They want their fictional immersive experience and will have it no matter what at any cost.

 

 

Roll with it people. It is all toon land. How good is your mickey or minnie mouse voice? Or goofy. If you can pull those off you are toon royalty.

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:

 


Carole Franizzi wrote:

 


Deltango Vale wrote:

From what I can see, your discussion with Dogboat is similar to one we had about a year ago. If I may quote myself, this time in your defense:

 

"The loose basket of Western values (Greco-Roman culture modified by monotheistic Judeo-Christian-Islamic beliefs) is not the dominant system in the world today, nor should it be. The value systems of ancient and modern Japan, China, India, Oceania, Africa and the indigenous peoples of the Americas and Australasia are older and as large if not larger than those of the West. To argue that Western values are superior to others is the height of arrogance. The belief that Western values should be imposed on the rest of the world is nothing less than moral bullying."

 

Carole writes:

I'm not sure that what I'm having with Dogboat can be defined as a discussion. He's apparently demonstrating how a civilised and morally-sound person should behave by...erm...being rather rude to people. I think I'll just let him get on with it...

I appreciated your post though. Full of excellent things and I have quoted the best bit.

As a  real-life American friend recently said to me - if you never get off your backside and get out of what village/town/city you live in, you end up believing that your reality is the only one which works, the only valid one and the one against which you should measure everyone else's reality  - which means you can spot a small-town boy or girl a mile away, as their every word will reflect their lack of travel and lack of experience in interacting with other peoples and cultures.

 

 

 


 

cant be sure if you were refering to me or not, but seeing as you mentioned my name, permit me to assume you were.

as well as being morally lacking you are also hopelessly presumptious.

good manners cost nothing but i only treat good people with good manners.

 


 

You can't be sure, but you go right ahead and offer up a string of insults anyway?

Hey, Dogboat. Carry on. If it makes you feel better taking out your pent-up aggressivity on a total stranger, who am I to deprive you of the pleasure? I remain utterly fascinated by your demonstration of what you term "good manners". Your particular take on what good manners consist of are quite unique.

The passage you assume to be about you was in response to Deltango's quote. My own more homespun interpretation of why intolerance occurs. It wasn't a response to you, nor was it about you (how could it be? I have no idea who you are, as, despite proclaiming your own honesty and firm moral standing in NOT "faking", "lying", etc,. you're handily hidden behind an invented name and identity) - but don't let that stop your fun in writing insulting posts.

Let me try one last time to illustrate why your very personal view of why certain uses of SL are immoral make no sense whatsoever.

Calling immoral those who use SL as per the description of the service is the same thing as:

Standing up at the cinema or at a theatre to scream "Liars!!! Fakes!!" at the actors in a film.

Stopping a child in a Halloween costume and yelling "You're not really a witch!!! You're just pretending!!! You immoral child!!!"

Going to Disneyland and going up to the poor schmuck in the Mickey Mouse costume who earns his money by getting his photo taken with the kiddies and saying "You utter fake! You're just in a costume - you're not the real Mickey!!! You should be ashamed!"

Getting the picture now? SL is an entertainment service with the technology which allows people to "dress up" by proxy and use their imaginations as a way of relaxing. Much healthier than passively watching the TV for hours and hours each evening, I think.

The minute you step in here, you have to accept that that's how it works. That's the game. Making an avatar which is an exact representation of yourself is pretty much impossible unless you're gifted artist/graphic artist - and if you look around you it's evident that the majority (in their vampire, neko, dolly bird, warrior avatars) have made no attempt to emulate RL and have no interest in doing so. Are they immoral? No more so than a kid dressing up as a princess to play make-believe.

It becomes an issue only for those who would like to use SL as dating agency. Which it is not. That doesn't mean that occasionally it may end up having results similar to a dating agency. Some people do meet in RL after having made friends in here. However, that cannot considered to be its primary function. And I'm damned if I can see why everyone else who uses the platform as it was intended by its creator/owner should be covered in insults simply because a tiny minority doesn't have the guts to sign on at a dating agency, using their real names and providing accurate real photographs. Because that's what this is all about. Signing on at a dating agency is a big step. Somebody might recognise you. Could be slightly embarrassing. Or maybe there's so little interest in your profile that the whole experience becomes humiliating. So, people sign on here - real identities masked by false names and invented, perfected appearances - with the intention of finding people to hook up with in real-life, but staying comfortably “hidden” until you finally manage to talk some gal into meeting you in RL, and getting annoyed with those who stubbornly keep using the game as it was intended.

Of course, then the hypocrisy kicks in. Liars are those whose avatars are of a different gender, right? But oddly enough it's perfectly okay to take 20 years off your appearance and make it much, much more attractive. That's okay, isn't it? That's not lying...it's....well, it IS lying - if by lying we mean playing make-believe - but it's perfectly acceptable because WE do it, right?

I have no idea what you actually do in SL. From your posts I can only assume you reveal your RL name and other data to everyone you meet. Your avatar will correspond as much as possible to your RL appearance, in age, in attractiveness, in style of clothing. Your life here will be you sitting in an office most of the day, with an occasional trip to a supermarket and time spent watching TV or reading (or whatever you do in your spare time). Possibly twice a week you'll go to a bar or club and have a chat to people - then you'll go home. Anything which deviates from an exact replica of your real-life would be unacceptable considering the position you have taken in all your posts, as anything different from your reality - like dancing on a beach, visiting the Taj Mahal, sitting holding hands with some girl while tropical birds fly round your head, is you asking the other to participate in a joint-activity of invention and imagination. Well, I suppose it is even if you just sit on a bar stool chatting - since the stool and bar don't actually exist, but at least it's an exact copy of what you do in real-life so your morality would be pretty much in tact, right? And god forbid you dabble in SL commerce - selling things which don't exist to people for real money. If you DO create stuff and ask for payment for it - that's you asking you customer to participate in the illusion that the hat you created is an actual object with an actual monetary value. Considering your view-points, that would be dreadfully immoral, wouldn't it.

However, I have no doubt, after all your lecturing that your avatar and the life he leads is an exact emulation of you in real-life...which begs the question...why bother playing SL at all???

 

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Buckle your seatbelt Carole .. I'm gonna shake your world a bit .. just for grins.

Second Life is "Your World, Your Imagination", right?

Well in Dogboat's imagination, his opinion matters, he is suave and debonair .. and he's very intelligent and well mannered too.

So really what we're witnessing is just another SL Resident living out their own fantasy .. except not in-world.

*grin*

You may now return to your regularly scheduled confusion. (ducks!)

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Aww .. Ann! You just totally ruined a really wonderful fantasy I was having.

@Deltango - I changed my mind Del, I'm not gonna by that official autographed prim shoe after all. But thanks for offering.

*chuckles*

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

However, I have no doubt, after all your lecturing that your avatar and the life he leads is an exact emulation of you in real-life...which begs the question...why bother playing SL at all??? 

 

I will answer this part seriously though. I'm one of those that likes my avatar looking a lot like me. I feel comfy in "my own skin" and I've even attempted to get the body shape and stature the same too. People that know me in RL will also say that my in-world behavior is pretty much similar to RL as well.

So why do I bother with SL? Simple reasons actually.

 

  1. I can fly here. In RL I'm not too fond of heights .. okay .. terrified of 'em.
  2. Falling massive distances is usually non-harmful. (There was that time I fell into a neighbor's house as she was "adjusting" some parts. I got banned from her parcel for that one. LOL)
  3. I can toss a house together in a few hours. Or spend a few months detailing it. Then rip it to shreds and never ONCE file for building permits or other gubment paperwork.
  4. I can make stuff that moves, works, fixes problems, looks neat .. easily.
  5. Almost every woman I meet is a Grade-A HOTTIE!! (Well, okay, her Avatar is .. but hey, I'm male. I don't care that it's just a computer generated body. It's still a fine piece of female artwork.)
  6. I can dance for hours, run across an entire Sim, and engage in other strenuous activities and never once break a sweat.
  7. Wearing spikes, leather and lots of bladed weapons is just as remarkable as jeans and a t-shirt.
  8. My business actually sells stuff here. I even make money sometimes.
  9. And last but by no means least .. I can meet folks from all over the world and make friends with them .. and it doesn't matter in the least that we might walk past each other in RL.

 

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

 

Carole Franizzi wrote:

However, I have no doubt, after all your lecturing that your avatar and the life he leads is an exact emulation of you in real-life...which begs the question...why bother playing SL at all??? 

 

I will answer this part seriously though. I'm one of those that likes my avatar looking a lot like me. I feel comfy in "my own skin" and I've even attempted to get the body shape and stature the same too. People that know me in RL will also say that my in-world behavior is pretty much similar to RL as well.

So why do I bother with SL? Simple reasons actually.

 
  1. I can fly here. In RL I'm not too fond of heights .. okay .. terrified of 'em.
  2. Falling massive distances is usually non-harmful. (There was that time I fell into a neighbor's house as she was "adjusting" some parts. I got banned from her parcel for that one. LOL)
  3. I can toss a house together in a few hours. Or spend a few months detailing it. Then rip it to shreds and never ONCE file for building permits or other gubment paperwork.
  4. I can make stuff that moves, works, fixes problems, looks neat .. easily.
  5. Almost every woman I meet is a Grade-A HOTTIE!! (Well, okay, her Avatar is .. but hey, I'm male. I don't care that it's just a computer generated body. It's still a fine piece of female artwork.)
  6. I can dance for hours, run across an entire Sim, and engage in other strenuous activities and never once break a sweat.
  7. Wearing spikes, leather and lots of bladed weapons is just as remarkable as jeans and a t-shirt.
  8. My business actually sells stuff here. I even make money sometimes.
  9. And last but by no means least .. I can meet folks from all over the world and make friends with them .. and it doesn't matter in the least that we might walk past each other in RL.

 

 

Well, that's what I meant. What you do in here, despite having an avatar similarish to your real-life body, is nothing like your real-life... You play SL in order to do things you can't do in the real-world. Some (most) people simply add to that illusion a completely different appearance.

What doesn't make sense is being here and emulating EXACTLY your real-life, which is what you have to do if you consider any imaginative break from your reality immoral.

Choosing an avatar similar to oneself is an option. It's a choice worthy of respect. But, avatar-appearance aside, every single step you take in here, every single action and interaction, requires the suspension of belief, the embracing of the illusion, the tacit agreement with others that they'll participate in the illusion alongside you. If I come and admire the new house you built in 30 minutes, I agree to back up your fantasy of having "built a house". We both know it doesn't exist but for the fun of the game, we'll both pretend it does. If I actually give you money for that house, I'm buying into your fantasy in an even more concrete way.

What nobody seems to be able to get across to Dogboat is that the entire mechanism of SL requires that we and our fellow players pretend (read "lie") most of the time. And to consider yourself above such "immorality", as you allow a toon to represent you, a fake name tag floating above your head, as you wander in fields of mushrooms as big as oak trees, whilst lecturing others on how REAL, HONEST and MORAL you are is...naive hypocrisy to say the least.

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Agreed.

Although .. y'know .. there's still that outside chance that in reality he's the sweetest, quietest, biggest hearted guy anyone's ever met .. and he just "plays" an opinionated blockhead for the fun of it. Bottom line? We won't even know unless he tells us .. but then his "confession" could be a lie too .. in which case .. *brainpop* ;^)

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:

i dont play SL.

both of you are very confused people, you would make a wonderful couple.

 

 

You're right about me being confused now. If you don't play SL why do you post regularly in the forums then? Why are we having this discussion at all??

*goes and lies down with a cold wet compress over her eyes*

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Carole Franizzi wrote:

 

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

i dont play SL.

both of you are very confused people, you would make a wonderful couple.

 

 

You're right about me being confused now. If you don't play SL why do you post regularly in the forums then? Why are we having this discussion at all??

*goes and lies down with a cold wet compress over her eyes*

 

SL isn't a game.

people can pretend if they like, nothing wrong with that, children do it all the time, but children dont deliberately set out to decieve.

are you being obtuse on purpose?

 

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:

SL isn't a game.

people can pretend if they like, nothing wrong with that, children do it all the time, but children dont deliberately set out to decieve. 

 

Since Carole has suffered brain implosion ... I'll ask this:

What is it that you do in SL? Or maybe I should ask what don't you do? Because there are a lot of "normal" SL activities that by definition cannot be replicated in RL .. and there's a lot of RL activities that just cannot be reproduced in SL. So what activities do you engage in while you're in SL .. and which do you avoid?

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:

... but children dont deliberately set out to decieve.
 

 

BTW: This is SO wrong ... on every level. Clearly you've never been a parent .. standing over a broken cookie jar or appliance or other household item, looking at the one and only suspect .. and being totally smitten by the absolute angelic innocence plastered all over their face as they swear on a stack of Pop-Tarts that there is no way in the WORLD they would have ever done THAT. In fact, they will promise you upon pain of DEATH that they weren't even on the planet when it got broken .. honest!

Deceit is not a strictly adult skill Dogboat .. trust me on this one. I've got three sterling examples and 100's of "ain't he/she so CUTE" pictures to prove it too. LOL

(Oh .. yeah .. and one burnt to a crisp tree. ROFL!)

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

 

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

... but children dont deliberately set out to decieve.
 

 

BTW: This is SO wrong ... on every level. Clearly you've never been a parent .. standing over a broken cookie jar or appliance or other household item, looking at the one and only suspect .. and being totally smitten by the absolute angelic innocence plastered all over their face as they swear on a stack of Pop-Tarts that there is no way in the WORLD they would have ever done THAT. In fact, they will promise you upon pain of DEATH that they weren't even on the planet when it got broken .. honest!

Deceit is not a strictly adult skill Dogboat .. trust me on this one. I've got three sterling examples and 100's of "ain't he/she so CUTE" pictures to prove it too. LOL

(Oh .. yeah .. and one burnt to a crisp tree. ROFL!)

 

what is wrong with you?

yes children will lie to cover themselves after the fact. omg what can i do, im going to get punished.

they dont set out to lie!

they dont think "im gonna burn some pop tarts and lie about it after"

you have problems.

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Dogboat Taurog wrote:

what is wrong with you?

yes children will lie to cover themselves after the fact. omg what can i do, im going to get punished.

they dont set out to lie!

you have problems.

 

ROFLMAO!! Ohh .. I dunno. Something about watching my youngest son SNEAK out of his room, SNEAK down the stairs SNEAK into the kitchen and SNEAK a glass of chocolate milk .. just kinda makes me think kids DO set out to lie.

BTW: Chocolate milk went flying everywhere when I cleared my throat .. standing in the kitchen door. It's not easy keeping a straight "Angry Dad" face when you really wanna dissolve in hysterical laughter.

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And HERE we have the perfect example of the "Non-Answer" that we discussed earlier in this thread.

See how effective it can be in deflecting the line of conversation and putting the onus of action back on the questioner? (That would be me in this case.)

Ahh .. well then .. I totally understand Dogboat. You are more than willing to expound ad nauseum on your expertise in the innocence of the child psyche, yet unwilling to cite any references or experience that would lend credibility to your assertions. Thus I am compelled to conclude that you have no experience and thus no credibility either.

Mine are now 30, 26 and 24. (And I STILL give them grief about chocolate milk, baby powder, toothpicks, staples .. and one seriously burnt to a crisp tree. LOL)

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"ROFLMAO!! Ohh .. I dunno. Something about watching my youngest son SNEAK out of his room, SNEAK down the stairs SNEAK into the kitchen and SNEAK a glass of chocolate milk .. just kinda makes me think kids DO set out to lie."

even assuming thats your youngest he's hardly a kid at 24.

at 24 he shouldnt be "sneaking Chocolate milk"

what is wrong with you?

 

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