The UnQueering of Second Life

[Dogboat Taurog 0]

 

---

Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

then there can be no trust.

---

Exactly

Welcome to Second Life. Or perhaps: Welcome to the internet.

 

And coming to think of it, RL is not much different either. Imagine yourself on a blind date with a woman you've never met before. She's exploiting an optical illusion that makes her appear thinner by wearing a vertically striped dress. She also wears high heeled shoes, which make her legs appear longer, as well as a padded push-up bra.

But that is not all. Her blond hair is fake, she's actually a brunette. Her long fingernails, which make her fingers appear longer and more feminine, are glued-on acrylic extensions. And her beautiful green eyes are the product of tinted contact lenses, which also hide the fact that she's near-sighted. Her naturally bushy eyebrows are meticulously plucked, her lady moustache is waxed off and so is her leg hair.

In addition to accentuating her lips and eyes with makeup, which makes her face appear a lot more feminine than it naturally does, she also hides her acne scars under a layer of concealer and setting powder. And her smile? It wouldn't look quite as gorgeous if it wasn't for those perfectly white high-end ceramic crowns, which she had put in after she quit smoking 30 cigarettes a day.

 

I could go on, but I think I got my point across by now

Unless you're dealing with a homeless person who lives under a bridge and lacks the necessary tools to wrap her- or himself in an attractive cocoon, you rarely ever get to see the true expression of someone's DNA, which is what you're looking for when searching for a mate. You'd have to be married to a person for several years in order to begin to understand who they actually are, and how much they've fooled you in the early days of your relationship.

As Carole said, nobody has the self-awareness to present themselves exactly the way they are. Even in RL, nobody would want to do that. We all mask our natural body odours with more pleasant smells, partially remove our body hair or facial hair, wrap ourselves in flattering clothes that hide most of our physical flaws, and probably suck our belly in when we visit the beach. SL merely gives people an additional layer of masquerade, deception and self-invention, and of course people make use of these unique new possibilities. 

---

 

but there are basic tenets in life.

and sexual identity is one of them if you are going to enter in to a sexual relationship.

if you think its all ok then frankly i think you have lost the plot.

you meet someone in RL and you are aware of all of the warts.

here its apparently ok to decieve.

welcome to a land void of morals and good luck building it.

i wont be here for much longer.

[Ima Rang 11]

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

 

---

Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

then there can be no trust.

---

Exactly

Welcome to Second Life. Or perhaps: Welcome to the internet.

 

And coming to think of it, RL is not much different either. Imagine yourself on a blind date with a woman you've never met before. She's exploiting an optical illusion that makes her appear thinner by wearing a vertically striped dress. She also wears high heeled shoes, which make her legs appear longer, as well as a padded push-up bra.

But that is not all. Her blond hair is fake, she's actually a brunette. Her long fingernails, which make her fingers appear longer and more feminine, are glued-on acrylic extensions. And her beautiful green eyes are the product of tinted contact lenses, which also hide the fact that she's near-sighted. Her naturally bushy eyebrows are meticulously plucked, her lady moustache is waxed off and so is her leg hair.

In addition to accentuating her lips and eyes with makeup, which makes her face appear a lot more feminine than it naturally does, she also hides her acne scars under a layer of concealer and setting powder. And her smile? It wouldn't look quite as gorgeous if it wasn't for those perfectly white high-end ceramic crowns, which she had put in after she quit smoking 30 cigarettes a day.

 

I could go on, but I think I got my point across by now

Unless you're dealing with a homeless person who lives under a bridge and lacks the necessary tools to wrap her- or himself in an attractive cocoon, you rarely ever get to see the true expression of someone's DNA, which is what you're looking for when searching for a mate. You'd have to be married to a person for several years in order to begin to understand who they actually are, and how much they've fooled you in the early days of your relationship.

As Carole said, nobody has the self-awareness to present themselves exactly the way they are. Even in RL, nobody would want to do that. We all mask our natural body odours with more pleasant smells, partially remove our body hair or facial hair, wrap ourselves in flattering clothes that hide most of our physical flaws, and probably suck our belly in when we visit the beach. SL merely gives people an additional layer of masquerade, deception and self-invention, and of course people make use of these unique new possibilities. 

---

 

but there are basic tenets in life.

and sexual identity is one of them if you are going to enter in to a sexual relationship.

if you think its all ok then frankly i think you have lost the plot.

you meet someone in RL and you are aware of all of the warts.

here its apparently ok to decieve.

welcome to a land void of morals and good luck building it.

i wont be here for much longer.

---

Sexual identity is not defined by genitalia. 

I think you are missing the point....if you came to SL with the intention of utilizing it like Match.com or eHarmony, then the only person who deceived you...was you.  SL is a world of imagination and if your RL was the sum total of your imagination...what would you need SL for?

There is no such thing as a physical sexual relationship in SL.  Talking dirty over IM or voice while diddling the dilbert is not a sexual relationship it is masturbation.

Welcome to the land of you get what is advertised..Imagination.

 

[Argus Collingwood 17]

 

---

Ima Rang wrote:

---

There is no such thing as a physical sexual relationship in SL.  Talking dirty over IM or voice while diddling the dilbert is not a sexual relationship it is masturbation.

Welcome to the land of you get what is advertised..Imagination.

 

---

Tell that to the Pr0n sites users :smileywink:

 

[Knowl Paine 455]

---

Scylla Rhiadra wrote:

tl;dr?  I can't say I blame you!

Here’s the executive summary:

The anxiety people feel about not being able to ascertain the “real” gender and identity of residents in SL is a

good

thing, because that anxiety forces us to confront our own comfortable fictions about how stable and unified our identities really are.  SL “queers” our perceptions of what it “means” to be male or female, black or white, or indeed any reductively defined “identity” in a way that liberates us from these restrictive and ultimately fictional categories. 

But this function of SL is under threat by a general movement, slow but inexorable, towards the linking of SL and RL identities.

---

 

My first thought was, Mr. is a fictional character, you are not a Resident, you have a Resident.

When looking for the benefit in linking SL and RL identities all I can find is new opportunity to Captialize and to begin Contracting under the Rule Of Law with that rl identity. It's a terrible thing, this has nothing to do with sexual preference or orientation.

 

 

 

[Dogboat Taurog 0]

 

---

Ima Rang wrote:

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

 

---

Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

then there can be no trust.

---

Exactly

Welcome to Second Life. Or perhaps: Welcome to the internet.

 

And coming to think of it, RL is not much different either. Imagine yourself on a blind date with a woman you've never met before. She's exploiting an optical illusion that makes her appear thinner by wearing a vertically striped dress. She also wears high heeled shoes, which make her legs appear longer, as well as a padded push-up bra.

But that is not all. Her blond hair is fake, she's actually a brunette. Her long fingernails, which make her fingers appear longer and more feminine, are glued-on acrylic extensions. And her beautiful green eyes are the product of tinted contact lenses, which also hide the fact that she's near-sighted. Her naturally bushy eyebrows are meticulously plucked, her lady moustache is waxed off and so is her leg hair.

In addition to accentuating her lips and eyes with makeup, which makes her face appear a lot more feminine than it naturally does, she also hides her acne scars under a layer of concealer and setting powder. And her smile? It wouldn't look quite as gorgeous if it wasn't for those perfectly white high-end ceramic crowns, which she had put in after she quit smoking 30 cigarettes a day.

 

I could go on, but I think I got my point across by now

Unless you're dealing with a homeless person who lives under a bridge and lacks the necessary tools to wrap her- or himself in an attractive cocoon, you rarely ever get to see the true expression of someone's DNA, which is what you're looking for when searching for a mate. You'd have to be married to a person for several years in order to begin to understand who they actually are, and how much they've fooled you in the early days of your relationship.

As Carole said, nobody has the self-awareness to present themselves exactly the way they are. Even in RL, nobody would want to do that. We all mask our natural body odours with more pleasant smells, partially remove our body hair or facial hair, wrap ourselves in flattering clothes that hide most of our physical flaws, and probably suck our belly in when we visit the beach. SL merely gives people an additional layer of masquerade, deception and self-invention, and of course people make use of these unique new possibilities. 

---

 

but there are basic tenets in life.

and sexual identity is one of them if you are going to enter in to a sexual relationship.

if you think its all ok then frankly i think you have lost the plot.

you meet someone in RL and you are aware of all of the warts.

here its apparently ok to decieve.

welcome to a land void of morals and good luck building it.

i wont be here for much longer.

---

Sexual identity is not defined by genitalia. 

 

---

 

in my world it is, you are what you are, its about honesty and morality, you should never fool anyone even if you can.

you and the people that follow your argument have become morally corrupt and blind.

[Ishtara Rothschild 46]

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

 

but there are basic tenets in life.

and sexual identity is one of them if you are going to enter in to a sexual relationship.

if you think its all ok then frankly i think you have lost the plot.

you meet someone in RL and you are aware of all of the warts.

here its apparently ok to decieve.

welcome to a land void of morals and good luck building it.

i wont be here for much longer.

---

I see that you didn't get my point, which was that nobody ever presents themselves the way they truly are, neither in RL nor in SL. One basic tenet of human life is that we all strive to be more than we actually are.

Which is a great thing. The world would be a horrible place if we were all content to be true, unaltered expressions of our neolithic genes, instead of re-inventing ourselves as something better, more interesting, more colorful, more civilized. You will have to leave it to the individual to decide what "better" means.

[Ishtara Rothschild 46]

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

... you are what you are ...

---

That's what traditional Indians say when they defend their caste system, or orthodox Muslims when the topic of gender equality is brought up. If we indeed are what we are, what would possibly be the point of a place like Second Life?

[Venus Petrov 309]

No, this OP was posted before CTUG.  Perhaps you are thinking of this OP in the Community Feedback forum.

[Mags Indigo 2]

---

Ima Rang wrote:<heavily snipped>

There is no such thing as a physical sexual relationship in SL.  Talking dirty over IM or voice while diddling the dilbert is not a sexual relationship it is masturbation.

Welcome to the land of you get what is advertised..Imagination.

 

---

And if that's what one does - it's what one does and no I wouldn't call that a relationship either.

I must say though I've never had that 'experience' you mention - I've always looked for a deeper bond than "Talking dirty over IM or voice while diddling the dilbert" before anyone would get past basic conversation not to mind saying entering the realm of sexual encounters.

In other words some people just don't spread it about and call it a relationship - which can make life very uncomfortable for those who do and want to presume that everyone else does too so no one has to be concerned about anyone's 'feelings'.

You're totally right of course SL is exactly what people want it to be - but different people make it different worlds and use different imaginative processes. Of course you can totally dismiss this as me being just one of those 'silly women who read more into things' but actually I've never been 'taken advantage of' and I don't wander the grid looking for sexual encounters either.

Just my tuppence worth while on a break from mundane RL work.

[Dogboat Taurog 0]

maybe you havent read Cant.

just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.

ps. i am exactly what i am. theres no escaping who you are either.

but i think there is an important difference, i dont discard my morals when i log in.

[Ceka Cianci 1,046]

 

---

Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

 

but there are basic tenets in life.

and sexual identity is one of them if you are going to enter in to a sexual relationship.

if you think its all ok then frankly i think you have lost the plot.

you meet someone in RL and you are aware of all of the warts.

here its apparently ok to decieve.

welcome to a land void of morals and good luck building it.

i wont be here for much longer.

---

I see that you didn't get my point, which was that nobody ever presents themselves the way they truly are, neither in RL nor in SL. One basic tenet of human life is that we all strive to be more than we actually are.

Which is a great thing. The world would be a horrible place if we were all content to be true, unaltered expressions of our neolithic genes, instead of re-inventing ourselves as something better, more interesting, more colorful, more civilized. You will have to leave it to the individual to decide what "better" means.

---

 

so in other words you feel everyone lies to everyone else about who they are? like to say they are better than they are?

sorry but some people just can't bull**bleep** like that..

i don't think people go around talking about every little thing about themselves..but i don't think it's impossible to find people that feel good about being honest about themselves either..

there are some people that believe there is a freedom to being as honest about themselves as they possibly can be..

i don't believe everyone is out to impress everyone...there are a lot in the world that don't get all caught up in that crap..

an honest person would rather say ..none of your business rather than say some line of crap to keep good face..

[Ossian1488303077 1]

 

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

maybe you havent read Cant.

just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.

---

Do you mean Kant?  Many people can't read Kant, and if some people can, it doesn't mean they should.

Or... if you mean that "Kant is Cant" -- it's a really far-fetched pun.

 

 

[Dogboat Taurog 0]

 

---

Ossian wrote:

 

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

maybe you havent read Cant.

just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.

---

Do you mean Kant?  Many people can't read Kant, and if some people can, it doesn't mean they should.

Or... if you mean that "Kant is Cant" -- it's a really far-fetched pun.

 

 

---

 

oops my bad, Kant.

my dog was being a nuisance and i was distracted.

more people should read kant, perhaps it would show a set of  proper morals to live by.

without morality we are doomed.

[Ossian1488303077 1]

I know... it was just a chance to tease.

[Dogboat Taurog 0]

 

---

Ossian wrote:

I know... it was just a chance to tease.

---

:smileytongue:

 

[Theia Magic 6]

Well I've been pretty quiet on these new forums, but this one got my attention.

I personally don't care what gender avatar a person chooses to use so long as it doesn't hurt another person by doing so.  Let me explain.

Bob plays a female avatar in Second Life.  He gets off on watching two girls go at it and frequents Adult sims, taking part in random one night stands.  There is obviously no emotional attachment in such a scenario, and the person with Bob's female avatar will likely never be the wiser the typist is male, so no harm no foul.

Ruth plays a male avatar because though born a RL woman, she identifies as a male.  She is far more comfortable on her male avatar than she is on in her RL female body.  When someone asks about her RL, she simply declines to discuss it, saying she rather keep that information private.  Again, no harm no foul. 

Fred plays a female avatar, because like Ruth, he's more comfortable playing an avatar opposite his RL gender.  He simply identifies with being a woman far more than being the male he's born as.  However, Fred claims to be a RL woman, even going so far as to pass out fake RL pics of himself and getting deeply emotionally involved with straight men. 

Bob and Ruth I have zero issue with.  Fred I have a huge issue with, because he's being intentionally deceptive.  It may be "your world, your imagination" but for some it's also their very real emotions, and having them trampled by deliberate lies is just plain wrong no matter how you look at it.

[Darrius Gothly 383]

 

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

... i dont discard my morals when i log in.

---

 

Nor do I. They just aren't the same as yours, or Ishy's or Ossian's or Scylla's or anyone else's. They are my morals.

Making the statement that since someone's morals are different than yours means they discard theirs at login though .. that's a bit prejudicial IMO.

[Void Singer 192]

 

---

Theia Magic wrote:

Bob and Ruth I have zero issue with.  Fred I have a huge issue with, because he's being intentionally deceptive.  It may be "your world, your imagination" but for some it's also their very real emotions, and having them trampled by deliberate lies is just plain wrong no matter how you look at it.

---

 

sorry, but I don't have a problem with Fred in your scenario, and I'll tell you why.... if any of the people that are so emotionally involved with this person couldn't tell the difference, and never escalated it beyond what they already knew, they they are getting exactly what they wanted... the fantasy that this person is exactly who they are portraying for them.

It's not that fred is really good at lying, it's that the peopleon the other end WANT to believe the lie, even when they can see how obviously it's not what they are being told.

and a step farther, what if fred really conceptualizes theirself that way? which is more a lie, the truth of their own concept of self, or some one else's concept of their self? if you put aside the innate desire to give in to fundamental attribution error and actually look at it from a ll sides, you'll find it's a very tough question.

 

for contrast I'd take more issue with bob, who is using using people for his own amusement... the signs and makings of a sociopath, than fred who at least demonstrates they can and are emotionally involved.. so have some genuine care for the people they're involved with.

[Theia Magic 6]

Just because you have no issue with it doesn't mean others don't either, nor does it mean they're getting "exactly what they wanted".  Just because you choose to live in pure fantasy within Second Life doesn't mean others do, for some it goes way beyond fantasy into very real emotions. 

If someone trusts another person, and they are blantantly lied to, the person lying is at fault not the person who was deceived.  Steve falling in love with Fred, thinking he's a RL woman because that's what Fred told him, is just plain wrong.

You can't genuinely care for someone if you're blantantly lying to them to further your own needs and desires.

[Dogboat Taurog 0]

 

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

 

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

... i dont discard my morals when i log in.

---

 

Nor do I. They just aren't the same as yours, or Ishy's or Ossian's or Scylla's or anyone else's. They are my morals.

Making the statement that since someone's morals are different than yours means they discard theirs at login though .. that's a bit prejudicial IMO.

---

 

there are universal morals we live by, or at least should.

if you ignore them you are being ignorant and selfish imho.

to not hurt people by deception is one moral we should live by.

its like robbing a senile person of their money or laughing behind peoples backs.

 

[Darrius Gothly 383]

 

---

Dogboat Taurog wrote:

there are universal morals we live by, or at least should.

if you ignore them you are being ignorant and selfish imho.

to not hurt people by deception is one moral we should live by.

its like robbing a senile person of their money or laughing behind peoples backs. 

---

 

There are parts of the world and large populations that live by a moral code I would personally find extremely restrictive .. if forced to abide by it. If we choose their morals as "The Universals" .. they're gonna be tickled pink, but I will be very unhappy.

Yes, I have a section .. a subset if you will .. of my own morals that I feel should be "universal" within my own society. I have another subset that I expect from my family and friends, and yet another for myself alone. There are even some that I truly do hope and want to believe should be universal to all humans .. and some to all life forms.

But it's so horribly subjective, and there are so many variations in people, culture and circumstance that I just cannot hold up a rigid, single-size measuring rod and pronounce "pass or fail". If for no better reason than I seriously do NOT want to find myself put against someone else's measure either.

[Dogboat Taurog 0]

they are not restrictive morals, they are very human and essentially good by any standards.

do unto others as you  would have them do unto you is probably the most important moral in civilised intelligent society.

read Kant or study ethics for an insight.

 

 

[Ian Undercroft 3]

Those of us who have spoken of morals and having respect for the feelings of others have, as far as I can see, been seeking to apply a moral code which I would hope is pretty much universal in any western, liberal society. As I see it such a moral code is pretty relaxed. Most certainly, I fail to see how that moral code can on any objective basis be viewed as unduly restrictive.

If there are places in this world which adopt a more relaxed moral code than western Europe, USA and Canada and Australasia, then I am willing to be informed and educated. That there are many places in the world with a much more restrictive moral code, I have no doubt. 

Immersionists post here and present themselves as the majority in SL. I have no doubt that, in truth, they are a relatively small minority.

Some people here seek to present themselves as nothing more than an imaginary collection of pixels, free to engage in unfeeling acts of "intimacy" with whoever and whatever they see fit. I don't understand how they can get upset when others call foul on some aspects of such behaviour. How can an imaginary collection of pixels have feelings to enable this happen?

[Carole Franizzi 72]

 

---

Theia Magic wrote:

Well I've been pretty quiet on these new forums, but this one got my attention.

I personally don't care what gender avatar a person chooses to use so long as it doesn't hurt another person by doing so.  Let me explain.

Bob plays a female avatar in Second Life.  He gets off on watching two girls go at it and frequents Adult sims, taking part in random one night stands.  There is obviously no emotional attachment in such a scenario, and the person with Bob's female avatar will likely never be the wiser the typist is male, so no harm no foul.

Ruth plays a male avatar because though born a RL woman, she identifies as a male.  She is far more comfortable on her male avatar than she is on in her RL female body.  When someone asks about her RL, she simply declines to discuss it, saying she rather keep that information private.  Again, no harm no foul. 

Fred plays a female avatar, because like Ruth, he's more comfortable playing an avatar opposite his RL gender.  He simply identifies with being a woman far more than being the male he's born as.  However, Fred claims to be a RL woman, even going so far as to pass out fake RL pics of himself and getting deeply emotionally involved with straight men. 

Bob and Ruth I have zero issue with.  Fred I have a huge issue with, because he's being intentionally deceptive.  It may be "your world, your imagination" but for some it's also their very real emotions, and having them trampled by deliberate lies is just plain wrong no matter how you look at it.

---

 

Sorry, I just don't agree. i'll even go as far as to say your ideas are contradictory in my opinion. The main thing is that nobody gets hurt you say. Then what if both Bob and Ruth are the object of emotional attachment - even if that's not what they were aiming at - and break a heart or two...whilst Fred's emotional conquests are always with men who, if they knew Fred was a bloke, still wouldn't give a toss and would still SLurve him to bits?

My point is - you are not in another person's heart or head so you cannot know what will and won't hurt others. We're forced to judge based on self-knowledge of how we react and assume it's the same for everybody else. A gal who goes galavanting all over thee seedier SL with an unladylike tag over her head may herself THINK she's just having fun but in actual fact is doing progressive damage to her self-esteem. Hence. all the Bobs, Toms, Dicks (sniggers) and Harrys who have a 5 minute fling wth her are very definitely direct participants in causing her to "hurt".

 

[Ian Undercroft 3]

Carol, you seriously believe that many SL males wouldn't give a toss if they knew Fred was a bloke?!

The typical SL males that you have encountered are clearly very different in their outlook on life from almost all of those that I've met.