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Is there a way to increase the Process Credit limit?


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On 4/24/2017 at 9:47 AM, Pamela Galli said:

I see nothing nasty about taking five percent, and only after an items sells. There is no listing fee, they let you do that for free. Most other places to sell content take 30 or 40 percent. Is LL not entitled to take a tiny cut of 5%?

Look here's the thing, Creators provide all the content.  In other games, the game industry would pay the user for the designs not charge them a fee.  SL is getting a lot already, as they never have to pay a dime for content to include programming and mesh design, that those running gaming companies would have to pay salaries or wages to have developed.  In fact, their company isn't even providing a decent design program to create mesh, the creator has to use an outside source like blender or Maya or 3ds max etc.  They just allow and charge for it to be imported into the engine.  And on top of that unlike other companies, they give themselves rights to exploit all the user's content any way they want, that they never were part of developing aside from providing the engine to import most items today because most items are mesh.  They get away with all of this because the users will pay for the creator's product and that money is attractive enough that people tolerate the fees.  But really if all the content providers left SL would have nothing new because LL doesn't do any development of content.  So it's a nice little thing SL has going where they don't have to pay developers to create content, they don't have to provide means to create the content (i.e. mesh, textures etc.), and they take a cut of whatever people put in their engine through the cost of importing it, the fees for selling it to include content of stores where people pay for digital real estate as well a the actual product.  Not only do they get "free" content that they never paid for, they get additional money for anything pertaining to the content.  So yeah the 5% and any percent is annoying. no, I'm not grateful.  It's a means to an end and it's put up with it because it's a write off as a business cost but really it's utter BS.

Also in app development for android or apple you get charged around 40% to "distribute" the app, which is completely different from SL in which you are getting charged to "add" content to there engine, which would be basically just an empty environment otherwise. And they use that content to attract new users to get an account, in some cases subscription based.

Edited by sybercode
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3 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

That sums up my point.

Except it's not a "tiny" cost and while I didn't say it was nasty, I did state how LL did things was BS.  Because if you read the message in entirety you will notice that I mentioned other costs involved not just fees.  Fees are a small part of it.  And I don't believe they are "entitled" to 5%.  So that one line you quoted is a small part of much bigger picture.  So my point in no way sympathizes with LL in receiving the percentages in fees they do, while when I read your statement, it appears you do.  

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2 hours ago, sybercode said:

Except it's not a "tiny" cost and while I didn't say it was nasty, I did state how LL did things was BS.  Because if you read the message in entirety you will notice that I mentioned other costs involved not just fees.  Fees are a small part of it.  And I don't believe they are "entitled" to 5%.  So that one line you quoted is a small part of much bigger picture.  So my point in no way sympathizes with LL in receiving the percentages in fees they do, while when I read your statement, it appears you do.  

I have stated this before and while there are plenty of things that The Lab does that I don't agree with.

Their platform --- their rules --- you agreed to them -- you can leave. 

That is really the bottom line. We each choose to stay or leave. 

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On 5/13/2017 at 2:41 PM, sybercode said:

Look here's the thing, Creators provide all the content.  In other games, the game industry would pay the user for the designs not charge them a fee.  SL is getting a lot already, as they never have to pay a dime for content to include programming and mesh design, that those running gaming companies would have to pay salaries or wages to have developed.  In fact, their company isn't even providing a decent design program to create mesh, the creator has to use an outside source like blender or Maya or 3ds max etc.  They just allow and charge for it to be imported into the engine.  And on top of that unlike other companies, they give themselves rights to exploit all the user's content any way they want, that they never were part of developing aside from providing the engine to import most items today because most items are mesh.  They get away with all of this because the users will pay for the creator's product and that money is attractive enough that people tolerate the fees.  But really if all the content providers left SL would have nothing new because LL doesn't do any development of content.  So it's a nice little thing SL has going where they don't have to pay developers to create content, they don't have to provide means to create the content (i.e. mesh, textures etc.), and they take a cut of whatever people put in their engine through the cost of importing it, the fees for selling it to include content of stores where people pay for digital real estate as well a the actual product.  Not only do they get "free" content that they never paid for, they get additional money for anything pertaining to the content.  So yeah the 5% and any percent is annoying. no, I'm not grateful.  It's a means to an end and it's put up with it because it's a write off as a business cost but really it's utter BS.

Also in app development for android or apple you get charged around 40% to "distribute" the app, which is completely different from SL in which you are getting charged to "add" content to there engine, which would be basically just an empty environment otherwise. And they use that content to attract new users to get an account, in some cases subscription based.

Hello sybercode,

Welcome to the Second Life Community Forums, and specifically the Merchants Forum.

I would like to try to address a few of your concerns, if I may.

1. Second Life is free to use.  There is no upfront cost to download, access, or play, Second Life.  

2. Second Life isn't a "game".  It is an online virtual world, but even true gaming companies do not always pay for content. Skyrim, WoW, The Witcher, etc., all have user created content, none of which the companies pay for. 

3. Second Life is 14 years old this year.  New stuff, like Mesh, will always have limitations due to the age of the code itself.  

4. The license that the creators grant to Linden Lab for the content that they create is because everything lives on the Linden Lab owned and run servers and system.  If users did not grant a license to Linden Lab, then Linden Lab would not have the right to store the content on the Inventory Servers, nor distribute the content to other users when users purchase an item from a creator/seller.  Linden Lab employees buy content from users all the time.  We do not just go "take" copies of items that users create, just because the Terms of Service grants Linden Lab a license for that content.

5. Users do not have to pay any fees to create content.  They may use a Sandbox region that Linden Lab provides, for free, to users, or they may use private sandboxes that other users set up, so there is no need to own your own land where you can build your items.  If you choose to own land, you may do so, but there is no requirement. If you choose to import/upload content, then there is a charge of 10L.  

6. With regards to the Marketplace. A user does not have to have an inworld store, or land, to use the Marketplace. There is no fee to create a store.  There is no fee to create a Product Listing for the items.  There are no restrictions to the number of products a seller may list on the Marketplace. Buyers do not pay any fees at all to use the Marketplace.  If, and only IF, and when an item sells, there is a fee. And only on items that are over 10L.

7. Linden Lab is not a content provider.  Linden Lab is a service provider.  Linden Lab provides and maintains the Second Life system that allows users to interact with each other.  Users can create, sell, and buy, content, with very few restrictions.  The costs of the services is paid with fees on certain items/activities.  Buying/Renting land from Linden Lab. Uploading/importing new content. Process Credit fees. Commission Fees on Marketplace Sales. Fees on Product Listing Enhancements, etc., all pay for the costs involved in maintaining and running Second Life.

Without the fees that are paid by the users for certain aspects of the service, there would be no service, because Linden Lab is a business, not a charity.  Without fees, Linden Lab would either have to charge every user a monthly fee in order to maintain and run the system, or the system would be shut down.

Edited by Dakota Linden
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2 hours ago, Dakota Linden said:

Linden Lab is a business, not a charity.  Without fees, Linden Lab would either have to charge every user a monthly fee in order to maintain and run the system, or the system would be shut down.

This. 

Some think the world should be run as a charity to benefit them.

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1 hour ago, Dakota Linden said:

1. Second Life is free to use.  There is no upfront cost to download, access, or play, Second Life.

True, and yet every aspect is monetized. Let's throw it under a Free to Play model, eh?

2. Second Life isn't a "game".  It is an online virtual world, but even true gaming companies do not always pay for content. Skyrim, WoW, The Witcher, etc., all have user created content, none of which the companies pay for. 

Or also known as a sandbox game, depending on who's talking and the context. Games themselves have also gone beyond "game" in the traditional sense.

About the other games and content: Yes and no. The base content of games that have some user generated content was produced by the company or artists hired by the company. The user generated content was added after the game launched and all the base content was in.

As far as WoW and user generated content ... huh? Maybe you're calling crafting in games user generated content. It isn't.

3. Second Life is 14 years old this year.  New stuff, like Mesh, will always have limitations due to the age of the code itself.

Phil Rosedale's bright idea years ago: "There will be no rewrites".

4. The license that the creators grant to Linden Lab for the content that they create is because everything lives on the Linden Lab owned and run servers and system.  If users did not grant a license to Linden Lab, then Linden Lab would not have the right to store the content on the Inventory Servers, nor distribute the content to other users when users purchase an item from a creator/seller.  Linden Lab employees buy content from users all the time.  We do not just go "take" copies of items that users create, just because the Terms of Service grants Linden Lab a license for that content.

Again, yes and no. The licensing is overly broad in the sense that it doesn't specify the limitations under which LL can use that content.

5. Users do not have to pay any fees to create content.  They may use a Sandbox region that Linden Lab provides, for free, to users, or they may use private sandboxes that other users set up, so there is no need to own your own land where you can build your items.  If you choose to own land, you may do so, but there is no requirement. If you choose to import/upload content, then there is a charge of 10L.

Doesn't mesh still have higher upload fees? And lest we forget, the government has determined that virtual currency bought with real money does have some value as currency. Thus government regulations on virtual currency. In that sense, all virtual fees are still fees.

7. Linden Lab is not a content provider.  Linden Lab is a service provider.  Linden Lab provides and maintains the Second Life system that allows users to interact with each other.  Users can create, sell, and buy, content, with very few restrictions.  The costs of the services is paid with fees on certain items/activities.  Buying/Renting land from Linden Lab. Uploading/importing new content. Process Credit fees. Commission Fees on Marketplace Sales. Fees on Product Listing Enhancements, etc., all pay for the costs involved in maintaining and running Second Life.

Sinks on virtual currency that were bought with real money is also money in the bank for the company. Any game developer that knows monetization can tell you this. It's why we use virtual currency, to make money. And the more sinks we apply the more money we get to keep.

Without the fees that are paid by the users for certain aspects of the service, there would be no service, because Linden Lab is a business, not a charity.  Without fees, Linden Lab would either have to charge every user a monthly fee in order to maintain and run the system, or the system would be shut down.

Agree, but let's be forthright about monetization.

 

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On 5/13/2017 at 1:41 PM, sybercode said:

Look here's the thing, Creators provide all the content.

Apples App Store has 2.2 million apps. Apple created maybe 30 of those. Google's Play Store ratio is about the same. So, in all those examples, creators provide practically all the content.

On 5/13/2017 at 1:41 PM, sybercode said:

In other games, the game industry would pay the user for the designs not charge them a fee. 

Apple charges $100/yr to be a developer, and 30% of sales (15% on subscriptions after an app is a year old). I don't think Google charges a developer fee, but they take the same cut of sales.

On 5/13/2017 at 1:41 PM, sybercode said:

In fact, their company isn't even providing a decent design program to create mesh, the creator has to use an outside source like blender or Maya or 3ds max etc.  

Apple provides only Xcode and iOS. Everything else (graphics, for example) must be created by the app developer using outside tools.

On 5/13/2017 at 1:41 PM, sybercode said:

And on top of that unlike other companies, they give themselves rights to exploit all the user's content any way they want, that they never were part of developing aside from providing the engine to import most items today because most items are mesh. 

LL's IP language is more draconian than their behavior, and necessarily so. As with Google's YouTube, LL needs certain IP rights to redistribute and display content. I haven't seen them take advantage of that to the detriment of creators. That wouldn't make business sense since. As you observe, SL depends on creators for content.

On 5/13/2017 at 1:41 PM, sybercode said:

They get away with all of this because the users will pay for the creator's product and that money is attractive enough that people tolerate the fees.

That's exactly as it should be.

On 5/13/2017 at 1:41 PM, sybercode said:

But really if all the content providers left SL would have nothing new because LL doesn't do any development of content.

It's the same for Apple and Google. They couldn't, nor would they want to, develop a couple million apps by themselves.

On 5/13/2017 at 1:41 PM, sybercode said:

So it's a nice little thing SL has going

Good for them, and for Apple and Google, who have nice big things going for many of the same reasons. Most of LL's revenue comes from region rentals, most of Apple's revenue comes from hardware sales, most of Google's revenue comes from advertising. In all cases, good creators are able to make money from those ecosystems. In all cases, a majority of the creators don't make much at all. Some actually lose money.

On 5/13/2017 at 1:41 PM, sybercode said:

So yeah the 5% and any percent is annoying. no, I'm not grateful.  It's a means to an end and it's put up with it because it's a write off as a business cost but really it's utter BS.

Also in app development for android or apple you get charged around 40% to "distribute" the app, which is completely different from SL in which you are getting charged to "add" content to there engine, which would be basically just an empty environment otherwise. And they use that content to attract new users to get an account, in some cases subscription based.

As I've just explained, LL's SL business model is very much like Apple/Google's App Store models. SL is largely supported by land fees (equivalent to Apple's hardware and Google's search ad revenue) and creators are allow to compete amongst themselves for consumer dollars, with a cut of the proceeds (30% for Apple/Google, 5% for LL) going to the platform.

I don't think you've justified your complaint.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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10 hours ago, Dakota Linden said:

 

Without the fees that are paid by the users for certain aspects of the service, there would be no service, because Linden Lab is a business, not a charity.  Without fees, Linden Lab would either have to charge every user a monthly fee in order to maintain and run the system, or the system would be shut down.

 

ok, then how come i was paying 1US$ to withdraw 10000US$ for 10 years on end, and it was alright for so long, and then within a year it all changed and i now have to pay 75US$ to withdraw the same amount? What happened? I don't live in USA, English is not my native language. US government has come with some law restrictions that specify how much money i may earn in SL or something? Is that it? LL is not to blame?

Is there a way to increase the Process Credit limit? this thread is called. I wish Dakota Linden would bother to give some useful practical answers instead about why LL would not increase Process Credit limits to old users that have a long history of US$ withdrawals and business owners.

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1 hour ago, Pamela Galli said:

$1000 costs a maximum of $15 to process. 

I process credit now twice a month, so it only costs me $30. 

 

Sooooo -- I think much of the point was that for some folks (like you ^^) wouldn't it save money to just process once a month?   That was why some of us were holding onto our money -- to save the fee LOL.  

Basically the rules changed and cost most all of us more money, but again we don't get to make the rules. 

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13 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Sooooo -- I think much of the point was that for some folks (like you ^^) wouldn't it save money to just process once a month?   That was why some of us were holding onto our money -- to save the fee LOL.  

Basically the rules changed and cost most all of us more money, but again we don't get to make the rules. 

Yes It would be even cheaper to cash out once a month. I just count it all as a business expense, and with all the fees together including tier on my four sims, it seems to me a bargain, esp after buying down my sims tier. There is no deal as good anywhere that I know of. 

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37 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

 

54 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Sooooo -- I think much of the point was that for some folks (like you ^^) wouldn't it save money to just process once a month?   That was why some of us were holding onto our money -- to save the fee LOL.  

Basically the rules changed and cost most all of us more money, but again we don't get to make the rules. 

Yes It would be even cheaper to cash out once a month. I just count it all as a business expense, and with all the fees together including tier on my four sims, it seems to me a bargain, esp after buying down my sims tier. There is no deal as good anywhere that I know of. 

 

OK. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same "page" LOL  . 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

$1000 costs a maximum of $15 to process. 

I process credit now twice a month, so it only costs me $30. 

 

it says 10000 ten thousand American dollars. Yes it costed me 15$ too (before the end of March), that's why i was holding on to it and cashed out once in 3-4 months. Now i can't withdraw more than 2000 a month so it will cost me 10000 = 5 x 2000; which is 15$ x 5 = 75$. And they apparently don't need my 75$ either,  - oh i do wanna pay it, please LL take it!! - but no they won't, because they just won't let me withdraw a penny until next month.

7 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Sooooo -- I think much of the point was that for some folks (like you ^^) wouldn't it save money to just process once a month?   That was why some of us were holding onto our money -- to save the fee LOL.  

Basically the rules changed and cost most all of us more money, but again we don't get to make the rules. 

and LL refuses to explain why. I  just want some clarity. I just want some transparency. I want to know why it was good enough for 10 years to pay 1$ withdraw fee, and what made them change it now so that it is now 75$ (for me) instead.

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1 hour ago, Elvina Ewing said:

 

10 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

$1000 costs a maximum of $15 to process. 

I process credit now twice a month, so it only costs me $30. 

 

it says 10000 ten thousand American dollars. Yes it costed me 15$ too (before the end of March), that's why i was holding on to it and cashed out once in 3-4 months. Now i can't withdraw more than 2000 a month so it will cost me 10000 = 5 x 2000; which is 15$ x 5 = 75$. And they apparently don't need my 75$ either,  - oh i do wanna pay it, please LL take it!! - but no they won't, because they just won't let me withdraw a penny until next month.

8 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Sooooo -- I think much of the point was that for some folks (like you ^^) wouldn't it save money to just process once a month?   That was why some of us were holding onto our money -- to save the fee LOL.  

Basically the rules changed and cost most all of us more money, but again we don't get to make the rules. 

and LL refuses to explain why. I  just want some clarity. I just want some transparency. I want to know why it was good enough for 10 years to pay 1$ withdraw fee, and what made them change it now so that it is now 75$ (for me) instead.

 

It seems pretty obvious (to me anyway) that they wanted to make more money on the handling of dollars OUT of the platform. 

Gotta pay for Sansar and that may have well been the impetus for the fee hike.

 

And honestly I think a US dollar fee on 10,000 WAS a bit low - LOL, not that it would ever have anything to do with ME anyway :D.   

 

 

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3 hours ago, Elvina Ewing said:

I want to know why it was good enough for 10 years to pay 1$ withdraw fee, and what made them change it now so that it is now 75$ (for me) instead.

Because they finally figured out - or someone pointed it out to them - that here was an aspect of SL where they were not making money and could.  LL is a business, so it is all about profit.  

I do agree however, that the 30 day limit is too extreme when there is already the 24 hr limit.  My guess is their lawyers told them that is what they needed to do to ensure they were dealing with the money laundering possibilities.

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I think I might start contacting the major bloggers of SL news and events. It seems arbitrary some have these limits, and some don't. At the very least LL should give some explanation for the arbitrariness, or an estimated time for when the limit will be lifted.

Edited by Pamela Galli
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Greetings all!

Linden Lab posted a blog announcing the changes:

The changes were applied to each Tier, as stated in the Blog Post.

If a user normally makes Process Credit requests under the new limit, they would not see an impact. However, for some users who chose to wait to make large, one lump sum, requests, they would most likely see an impact.

The vast majority of users can still make Process Credits requests for the exact same amounts that they have been making all along, only now some users have to make the requests monthly, or bi-monthly, instead of making 1 request every 3-6 months.

Here is an example:

If a user normally makes a Process Credit request every 4 months for $3000, their average Process Credit request translates into $750 a month, for those 4 months. At the Resident 1 Trading Limit, their Process Credit limit is $999 per 30 days. 

This means they can still request the same amount, only now, they will need to make the requests monthly, instead of every 4 months, to request the same $3000.

In fact, their Process Credit limits allow them to request up to $3996 every 4 months. So their limits would allow them to request $996 more than they have been for that same 4 month period.

Any user may request a review of their current Billing and Trading limits by submitting a Support Case:

https://support.secondlife.com/create-case/

Choose the options:

Billing - LindeX Billing and Trading Limits Review Request

 

 

 

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Thank you Dakota, but there is little help for my situation in your reply. I withdrew 10000$ every 4 months. Now my limit is 2000 per month. 4x2000 = 8000$, not 10000$. My process credit limits is way below my needs. I request my trading limits raised, and my request is denied. Why? -"At this time we do not feel it appropriate to increase your limit for Process Credit Requests." was LL's reply. How is this not appropriate to let me withdraw money i rightfully earned? Imagine your employer would refuse to pay you 10000$ worth of salary you worked hard for. And when you ask why all they would tell you was "We do not feel it appropriate to pay you your salary right now".

It makes absolutely no sense to me why LL would refuse to increase my process credit limit.

3 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Because they finally figured out - or someone pointed it out to them - that here was an aspect of SL where they were not making money and could.  LL is a business, so it is all about profit. 

No, apparently it's not. They can have my 75$ of fees if they let me withdraw that money in 5 days, 2000$ per day. But they don't let me. So, apparently they don't want my 75$.

In the meantime, i have put releasing new stuff on hold. Before this "joke" happened, i was working on 3 epic new outfits. I have never finished them - what's the point making more money if you can't withdraw it anyway?? I have no motivation to create anymore. I lose. My customers who were requesting those outfits are not going to get them any time soon. My customers lose. I won't be selling them in my MP store, LL won't get 5% off those sales, LL loses too in the end. Everybody loses. How is that good business?

Edited by Elvina Ewing
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6 minutes ago, Elvina Ewing said:

No, apparently it's not. They can have my 75$ of fees if they let me withdraw that money in 5 days, 2000$ per day. But they don't let me. So, apparently they don't want my 75$.

Well, I did say that I thought the 30 day limit was a bit nuts given the 24 hr limit.  However, unless you plan on never ever taking your money, eventually LL will get their fee.  Maybe they don't care so much about "when".

I really do think it is them trying to do what their lawyers tell them in regards to money laundering.  Otherwise, the 30 day rule truly makes no sense.  However, them reducing the limit on the 24 hr timeframe, so that they can get more fees, makes perfect sense.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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This is what I don't understand. Even if people can withdraw their saved Lindens monthly, how are they supposed to withdraw the money they currently make? Like, if someone draws down their $10000 savings over five months, they are at the same time still building up yet more savings. 

If LL wants to set limits, ok, but how can someone ever get their savings out? That's what people want to know I think.

Edited by Pamela Galli
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I would guess that now that the new limits are there, if you can show (after a few months) that you are increasing your US $ as quickly or quicker than you can take it out, then you might meet their requirements for getting a higher limit.  They may be holding off on it for very many people to see how things shake out with the changes - because apparently a lot of people really were just letting the balance accumulate for an extended period of time before pulling it.

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1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

This is what I don't understand. Even if people can withdraw their saved Lindens monthly, how are they supposed to withdraw the money they currently make? Like, if someone draws down their $10000 savings over five months, they are at the same time still building up yet more savings. 

exactly. With my current process credit limit i will never be able to withdraw everything, unless i shut down my store completely thus stopping earning any more $$.

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