Warning! Don't Let This Happen to You!

[Prokofy Neva]

I don't know how you get to this testing grid, whether that is the celebrated Hippo! grid, but I couldn't get logged in there, it bounced me. And I don't think that will help.

Re: this business of backspacing to delete. I never heard of that. I never DID that. I don't think it's possible to do accidentally but I may try to test it.

@Phil Deakins  Anything to be contrarian, eh? Re: The idea that she noticed the missing inventory right after she emptied the Trash was just a coincidence has already been suggested as a possibility but she ignored it. The missing folder with the tens of thousands of items in it could have been missing before the Trash was emptied, but hadn't been noticed. Prok has it firmly in her head that she deleted the folder herself by emptying the Trash, and that's all there is to it. She may be right, and she may be wrong. As you said, it's not known.

Nonsense. I'm ignoring it because it's not relevant to the documented situation here. It's not a coincidence because I had some of that inventory available and had just searched and found it to put it in a rental only moments before getting that message about the trash overflowing. THEN when I searched for an item as I kept getting that message -- not realizing that I had lost inventory -- I saw the very folder was missing. Then I compared the numbers. I would always recognize a huge discrepancy in numbers because I watch those numbers regularly.

There isn't a "coincidence" here because this is a folder I use constantly as I am flying around, removing and putting things in rentals -- and all of a sudden that folder is gone completely.

The message appeared right after I deleted a dock. I knew there couldn't possibly be lots of items in my trash because I keep it clean to avoid confusion and I also check it to avoid loss -- with so much extra and unnecessary packaging in products these days, especially with something like the Epiphany gatchas. 

THE REASON A MESSAGE ABOUT TRASH OVERFLOWING CAN APPEAR IN THE FIRST PLACE ON AN AVATAR'S ACCOUNT WHO NEVER HAS MORE THAN A FEW DOZEN THINGS IN TRASH AND NEVER HAD THAT MESSAGE IN HIS ENTIRE LIFE IS BECAUSE A GIANT FOLDER OF STUFF GOT PUT IT IN ACCIDENTALLY, DUH.

I *looked* in the trash to see what could be making it so "heavy". I didn't see THAT folder, but by that time it was missing precisely because I couldn't find the sub-folders I was searching on -- "Animals" and "Docks". They were simply gone.

And once again, I'm not claiming at all "I deleted it myself" or even self-doubting as some are doing in this thread saying "I may have deleted it". I *know* I didn't delete it. To click and delete, or push a file like that into trash would be absurd, it has 15,000 items in it in sub-folders. I also *did not see it in trash*.  As has been indicated, multiple reasons could account for this: the file is over-large and doesn't show up then (people have indicated that happens); the tab is on "recent" and isn't showing an old file that got deleted; the file is hidden in some other way.

There's no point in arguing this because the Lindens can look on the server and discover the series of actions that an avatar did to see if my recollection is right or wrong. And it's immaterial because THAT the folder got in trash and then got flushed is the story -- there isn't another story. So they will either see that or it will be too late as they've flushed their own servers.

FWIW I now after four days finally have a Linden engineer looking at this issue. 

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Prokofy Neva

[Phil Deakins]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

@Phil Deakins  Anything to be contrarian, eh? lol You're always the negative one, and usually incorrectly too. Re: The idea that she noticed the missing inventory right after she emptied the Trash was just a coincidence has already been suggested as a possibility but she ignored it. The missing folder with the tens of thousands of items in it could have been missing before the Trash was emptied, but hadn't been noticed. Prok has it firmly in her head that she deleted the folder herself by emptying the Trash, and that's all there is to it. She may be right, and she may be wrong. As you said, it's not known.

Nonsense. I'm ignoring it because it's not relevant to the documented situation here. It's not a coincidence because I had some of that inventory available and had just searched and found it to put it in a rental only moments before getting that message about the trash overflowing. THEN when I searched for an item as I kept getting that message -- not realizing that I had lost inventory -- I saw the very folder was missing. Then I compared the numbers. I would always recognize a huge discrepancy in numbers because I watch those numbers regularly.

The suggestion was very relevant to the discussion, and I'm not the only who thought it might have been a coincidence. Your reply to the suggestion ought to have been what you posted in the parapgraph above. You may have known better but nobody else did, so it would have been much better to explain it when it first came up, rather than sounding off about the suggestion later   After all, you are the one who wanted a public discussion.

There isn't a "coincidence" here because this is a folder I use constantly as I am flying around, removing and putting things in rentals -- and all of a sudden that folder is gone completely.

The message appeared right after I deleted a dock. I knew there couldn't possibly be lots of items in my trash because I keep it clean to avoid confusion and I also check it to avoid loss -- with so much extra and unnecessary packaging in products these days, especially with something like the Epiphany gatchas. 

Alright. You should have said all that ages ago, when the idea of a coincidence were brought up - more than once. You don't do yourself any favours.

THE REASON A MESSAGE ABOUT TRASH OVERFLOWING CAN APPEAR IN THE FIRST PLACE ON AN AVATAR'S ACCOUNT WHO NEVER HAS MORE THAN A FEW DOZEN THINGS IN TRASH AND NEVER HAD THAT MESSAGE IN HIS ENTIRE LIFE IS BECAUSE A GIANT FOLDER OF STUFF GOT PUT IT IN ACCIDENTALLY, DUH.

There's no need to shout. And yet you said that that giant folder wasn't in the Trash. You said that you'd inspected the contents of your Trash and it all looked fine. The folder wasn't there.

I *looked* in the trash to see what could be making it so "heavy". I didn't see THAT folder, but by that time it was missing precisely because I couldn't find the sub-folders I was searching on -- "Animals" and "Docks". They were simply gone.

Exactly. It wasn't there. THAT should have triggered an alarm. Why were you getting the messages when what you were looking at couldn't possibly cause them? As I said in another post, "Right there, something was wrong", and yet you went ahead and emptied the Trash. Refresh my memory please. Were there any folders in the few items that were in the Trash? And, if there were, did you examine their contents?

And once again, I'm not claiming at all "I deleted it myself" or even self-doubting as some are doing in this thread saying "I may have deleted it". I *know* I didn't delete it. To click and delete, or push a file like that into trash would be absurd, it has 15,000 items in it in sub-folders. I also *did not see it in trash*.  As has been indicated, multiple reasons could account for this: the file is over-large and doesn't show up then (people have indicated that happens); the tab is on "recent" and isn't showing an old file that got deleted; the file is hidden in some other way.

I know you haven't admitted to deleting the folder yourself in the way you describe deleting it. Nobody suggested that you did. What I meant was that you believe that you deleted the folder yourself by emptying it from the Trash, not knowing that it was there. You have admitted to the possibility that you might have been looking the Recent Trash instead of the main one, which would have been a mistake on your part. I'm not convinced that using the Backspace button didn't cause the folder to go into the Trash. I know you believe you didn't do that but I think it has to remain as a possibility.

 

 

[Chic Aeon]

I posted a question about inventory in OpenSim on a Google Group mentioning these threads on inventory loss. This was the techy reply I received. Thought it might be of interest.

 

[Aislin Ceawlin]

23 hours ago, Neural Blankes said:

To avoid false positives in this, I would like to point out that, as many of the older people will know, if you have an item or folder selected in your inventory, and hit the "backspace" key, it will, without warning or popup, put that item or folder into the trash.

This may seem innocuous, but it has caused problems for me in the past.

This is functionality I have wished for a long time would be removed.

I didn't know that!!! Thanks!!

[MoonieRatty]

This has definitely happen to me at least twice. I got that message saying my trash had oveflowed. Now I have a tendency to not empty it so I thought nothing of it until I emptied it and my backups folder was gone! The second time I checked to see if the folder was,in there (labeled backups again) and it was not. I figured it was safe to empty the trash and my stuff all disappeared. For me this seems to only happen to folders located in the objects folder and only if I delete something from that folder it takes the other folder with it. I was keeping no copy items in there to all my gatcha clothes I had some rares in there as well that were valuable for a gatcha item :(i I cried a bit not gonna lie. I thought it was just me and maybe I was just imagining it adding itself in there and I was just being klutzy but I guess not. Doesn't matter what viewer your on either this happened to me on coolvl (whichis pretty stable v1 viewer) and firestorm. This has been going on for me for several months now I haven't reported it thinking I was imagining things. But I guess I will now since apparently I'm not.

 

 

I've created a jira for this issue. I don't know if people would like to add to it. I already know I won't get items back if I put in a support ticket so. I figured a big report would be more appropriate here. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-100541

Edited April 28, 2017 by MoonieRatty
Spelling and added jira link

[Prokofy Neva]

On 4/26/2017 at 7:57 AM, Phil Deakins said:

 

@Phil Deakins -- again, anything to be contrarian. I *said* in my original post that I looked at the trash carefully and didn't see anything. Yet you claim that my problem could be that I failed to look at trash. Nonsense. I looked at it.

I explained exactly what I was doing in sequence in the original post, so again, the "coincidence" angle or the idea that this occurred before the trash message appeared is absurd. The trash overflowing message -- which I had never had in my life *was* the signal that a folder had wrongfully been put in trash, obviously. This shouldn't be so hard yet I've had to explain it repeatedly. Yet I only knew that in retrospect when I found the folder missing; if I didn't see it in trash, obviously I didn't know it had been somehow deleted, derp.

I wouldn't have to explain about my searches at all because *that fact alone of the appearance of the message when I had never seen it before, signally something giant in trash, was sufficient*. I added even more detail to burn it in. Again, all this is obvious and repeated, yet you're merely trying to be contrarian.

I emptied the trash because I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING, DERP. Now why is that so hard??? I'm pretty sure I wasn't looking in "recent" because I tried searching again after the message which would have taken me out of "recent". I *did* look -- and because the message was persistent, and I didn't see that a FOLDER was missing, I thought it was safe to flush as a good idea. And others have done the exact same thing, and your curious needling on this is -- again, merely being contrarian.

I don't think I was looking at Recent, but Whirly suggested it and it provides one explanation. It's not that I "admit" this is a possibility as if called out in a lie; I merely state it as her hypothesis but it is not what I believe what happened. There are bugs that make folders not visible, and that could be operative.

I have never used backspace and I don't see that it's an issue.

Cease from your heckling, this isn't about you and your need to harass me. It's a larger issue.

[Prokofy Neva]

@MoonieRatty Thank you so much for doing the JIRA -- I've waited several weeks for someone to do this. The problem is that techies always shrug that they can't duplicate it and it goes away for them. I can't post JIRAs as I am banned for the JIRA because I persisted in treating the permanent deletion of shared group items on return which overrides group powers established by the group owner as a bug, not a feature.

In a case with something this tricky, you can't expect to "repro" it. You have to use another method which is to keep publicizing it, and getting more and more reports from the general public from people who had it happen to them and finally when you have enough of these -- perhaps a dozen or more -- that constitutes a signal of alarm to make people unwilling to "repro" something that is complicated to at least go and research possibilities. The "repro" fetish really kills progress, and it is hard to do mass announcements in this setting where much is discouraged in multiple ways but I'm glad after several weeks now I have gotten Lindens to look at this -- and got people to come forward with their stories of how it happened to me. 

Remember I started complaining about this generically on behalf of another person -- then it happened to me, something I still find odd.

When you say this: "For me this seems to only happen to folders located in the objects folder and only if I delete something from that folder it takes the other folder with it."

I don't know what to do about this. I have to keep things in folders hanging off "Objects". I have to delete things sometimes. So what can I do? Push them into another folder? How is that different than pushing them into trash? 

This is not something I want to test right now, I've lost enough.

I wonder if the Linden testers have "heavy shopping avatars" that are larded up with 100,000 item inventories in all kinds of folders. If they made a "Shopper Sally" avatar like that I bet they'd discover fast how their software doesn't work half the time.

[MoonieRatty]

@Prokofy Neva I'm not sure if it's related only to the object folder specifically or any main folder with subfolder in it.I only notice it's happened both times to subfolder located in objects. I've deleted folders in other main folders such as outfits and so on with many sub folders some with many items in them and hadn't had it happen.  Its possible moving the folder you want to delete outside of a main folder then deleting will help. Its hard to say for sure. I'm only adding as much detail as I can remember and as stated for me it only happened when in the particular folder no other time. Probably the best option is for anyone experiencing this issue to comment on the ticket and add any details they can remeber to the ticket or create a new ticket and merge it with this one with details about what happened to them as it should help pinpoint where the bug actually lies.

Edited April 29, 2017 by MoonieRatty
Clarification

[Chic Aeon]

2 hours ago, MoonieRatty said:

@Prokofy Neva I'm not sure if it's related only to the object folder specifically or any main folder with subfolder in it.I only notice it's happened both times to subfolder located in objects. I've deleted folders in other main folders such as outfits and so on with many sub folders some with many items in them and hadn't had it happen.  Its possible moving the folder you want to delete outside of a main folder then deleting will help. Its hard to say for sure. I'm only adding as much detail as I can remember and as stated for me it only happened when in the particular folder no other time. Probably the best option is for anyone experiencing this issue to comment on the ticket and add any details they can remeber to the ticket or create a new ticket and merge it with this one with details about what happened to them as it should help pinpoint where the bug actually lies.

Just wanted to add that each time I had major losses they were ALL top level folders that I had made myself. Looking at my screenshot they would have been along the lines of my backup folders shown there. Now a good conclusion to jump to would be that my losses had something to do with the asterisks -- except that I only started adding those a couple of years ago and had plenty of major losses before that with UNasterisked folders :D.

My lastest losses were folders similar to the ones here that say "**Backup Swanbridge mid June 2016"  except that they were for another sim. I had multiple backups there too taken over time and they all disappeared. I had not been cleaning or arranging things in those folders and generally seldom or never went in there.

It DOES seem to me that as someone said, deleting a single item (or a small group) within a folder can trigger the deletion of the whole folder and it could be that a DMCA deletion (or plywood box if that is still happening) could trigger this issue -- in that case it would have been NOTHING we had control over.   That is for general giant folder losses -- the odd missing textures (and I have lost plenty of those over the years) could be a  different issue entirely. 

 

 

[MoonieRatty]

19 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Just wanted to add that each time I had major losses they were ALL top level folders that I had made myself. Looking at my screenshot they would have been along the lines of my backup folders shown there. Now a good conclusion to jump to would be that my losses had something to do with the asterisks -- except that I only started adding those a couple of years ago and had plenty of major losses before that with UNasterisked folders :D.

My lastest losses were folders similar to the ones here that say "**Backup Swanbridge mid June 2016"  except that they were for another sim. I had multiple backups there too taken over time and they all disappeared. I had not been cleaning or arranging things in those folders and generally seldom or never went in there.

It DOES seem to me that as someone said, deleting a single item (or a small group) within a folder can trigger the deletion of the whole folder and it could be that a DMCA deletion (or plywood box if that is still happening) could trigger this issue -- in that case it would have been NOTHING we had control over.   That is for general giant folder losses -- the odd missing textures (and I have lost plenty of those over the years) could be a  different issue entirely. 

 

 

For me the missing folders were once with no special characters in there names. As far as I know there were also no DMCA'd Items in there (but hard to tell for sure. I updated the ticker with further details...I think you may be right that it is triggered by deleting something within that folder that then deletes the whole folder. for me this specifically only happens to items int he objects folder not top level stuff that I've noticed. If it's happening to you on top level items as well you may want to add your information to the ticket as well and this image so that the lindens working on this can gather as much potential info on this issue as possible.

[LittleMe Jewell]

Not sure if this plays into the issue or not, but I was poking around the Wiki and found something quite interesting.  The Inventory section of this page (http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits) mentions that there is a limit on the maximum number of items "displayed" in a single folder.  From reading the info and the info in the linked transcript, if the lost item is contained in a folder that has many many thousands of items, it might not really be lost.  You could try moving lots of the other items in that folder to to another folder.  

In other words, if Folder-A contains many thousands of items, whether those items be sub-folder or individual items, loading Folder-A may hit a limit and not show more, even if there is more.  If you then move lots of items out of Folder-A and then reload inventory (via relog, I assume), then more items will now be shown in Folder-A.

I'm not sure how deleting items might cause this to manifest or show itself, but if you do have a single folder with many many thousands of items, it could be worth moving some stuff to see if missing items then show up.

Edited April 30, 2017 by LittleMe Jewell

[Whirly Fizzle]

24 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Not sure if this plays into the issue or not, but I was poking around the Wiki and found something quite interesting.  The Inventory section of this page (http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits) mentions that there is a limit on the maximum number of items "displayed" in a single folder.  From reading the info and the info in the linked transcript, if the lost item is contained in a folder that has many many thousands of items, it might not really be lost.  You could try moving lots of the other items in that folder to to another folder.  

In other words, if Folder-A contains many thousands of items, whether those items be sub-folder or individual items, loading Folder-A may hit a limit and not show more, even if there is more.  If you then move lots of items out of Folder-A and then reload inventory (via relog, I assume), then more items will now be shown in Folder-A.

I'm not sure how deleting items might cause this to manifest or show itself, but if you do have a single folder with many many thousands of items, it could be worth moving some stuff to see if missing items then show up.

That page is out of date.
As far as I'm aware there is no limit to the amount of items that will load in an inventory folder now.  The limit was removed with the change over to the newest Inventory AIS3 API.
With the older inventory API, the  HTTP CAP limited download of per folder items to about 10MB per folder, which is a little over 10k items per folder - each inventory item takes roughly ~7KB memory.
I'm not sure but I don't think LL turned off the old inventory backend yet so users of outdated viewers may still be using the older inventory API with that limit still in effect.

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

6 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

That page is out of date.

My biggest frustration with the LL Wiki - lots of Wikis actually.

[Phil Deakins]

On 28/04/2017 at 6:54 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

@Phil Deakins -- again, anything to be contrarian.

You ought to let it go, you know. I know you smarted a lot when I showed you up in your own blog, but that was years ago - and you started it. So move on, eh? I'm not being contrary at all. I'm simply, and logically, discussing your problem.

I *said* in my original post that I looked at the trash carefully and didn't see anything. Yet you claim that my problem could be that I failed to look at trash. Nonsense. I looked at it.

No, you're wrong. You did say that you looked at your Trash carefully and didn't see anything. That's true. What I asked was whether or not it contained any sub-folders and, if it did, did you look inside them? Your first post didn't cover that, so it's worth asking. I haven't claimed anything. I simply asked. Twisting my words gets you nowhere.

I explained exactly what I was doing in sequence in the original post, so again, the "coincidence" angle or the idea that this occurred before the trash message appeared is absurd.

It's not absurd at all. It's certainly a possibility and is worth exploring.

The trash overflowing message -- which I had never had in my life *was* the signal that a folder had wrongfully been put in trash, obviously. This shouldn't be so hard yet I've had to explain it repeatedly. Yet I only knew that in retrospect when I found the folder missing; if I didn't see it in trash, obviously I didn't know it had been somehow deleted, derp.

There is nothing hard about understanding what you wrote. Understanding why someone would reject possibilities that they can't possibily know about is hard, derp. The point here is that you could see something was clearly wrong, and yet you went ahead anyway. I haven't suggested that it was your fault, but going ahead with something that you could clearly see wasn't necessary, instead of wondering why you were getting the messages, was a big mistake.

I wouldn't have to explain about my searches at all because *that fact alone of the appearance of the message when I had never seen it before, signally something giant in trash, was sufficient*. I added even more detail to burn it in. Again, all this is obvious and repeated, yet you're merely trying to be contrarian.

Nope. Not me. You THINK you know exactly what happened, and you're closed-minded to any other possibility that I might come up with - because it's me. (You really should get over that drubbing, you know). If anyone else had suggested what I suggested, you wouldn't be so negative about it. So... you think you know what happened, eh? So what did happen? You got the messages and yet your Trash only had a few items in it. So what caused the messages? The huge folder was in it but not displayed? Why wasn't it displayed? The huge folder was in the download process so you couldn't see it? What happened? Where was the huge folder at the time? Was it still where it should be and was deleted along with the Trash? Where was it? If it was in the Trash, why didn't you see it? So many questions, and no answers from you who thinks she knows what happened.

I emptied the trash because I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING, DERP. Now why is that so hard???

You emptied the Trash in spite of something being obviously wrong - derp.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't looking in "recent" because I tried searching again after the message which would have taken me out of "recent". I *did* look -- and because the message was persistent, and I didn't see that a FOLDER was missing, I thought it was safe to flush as a good idea. And others have done the exact same thing, and your curious needling on this is -- again, merely being contrarian.

Yes, you're "pretty sure" you weren't looking in Recent, but you're not certain, so it can't be rejected as a possibility. There's nothing contrary about that - or about anything I've written in your threads on this topic. If you think of me as someone who hadn't emabarrassed you in your own blog, you'd see that.

I don't think I was looking at Recent, but Whirly suggested it and it provides one explanation. It's not that I "admit" this is a possibility as if called out in a lie; I merely state it as her hypothesis but it is not what I believe what happened. There are bugs that make folders not visible, and that could be operative.

Yes, you can't be sure whether or not you were in Recent. You don't think you were, but you might have been. Either way, you "like a dutiful citizen, flushed the trash" (your words), knowing that something was definitely not right.

I have never used backspace and I don't see that it's an issue.

I don't believe you. What I think you mean is that you've never used Backspace to delete something in your inventory. I can believe that, but it's still an open possibility. We use the Backspace key all the time - when we're writing emails, IM's, local chat, forum posts, for instance - and we frequestly switch windows, often intentional, and sometimes not. Everyone uses the Backspace key and mistakes with it can happen.

Cease from your heckling, this isn't about you and your need to harass me. It's a larger issue.

Yes, it does appear to be a big issue. It wasn't known to be a big issue until you started two threads about it, and it's your posts that I've responded to as you implicitly requested when you posted threads for public discussion. I have no need to heckle or harrass you, and I haven't been doing it. I never do it to you. If I have nothing to say when you frequently post, I don't say anything. In this case though, I did have 2 suggestions to offer, and I offered them, but you took exception to my involvement. And now it appears you're trying to start with apparent instults ('derp' - whatever that is). It's better you take a good look at yourself instead of me

 

Btw, what's with all the "derp" stuff? I hadn't come across it before so I looked it up. Apparently it's a judgement on what someone says, and not the person themselves as you have used it. I assume it's your way of calling me something like an 'idiot', so I've used it the same way

 

[Chic Aeon]

On 4/30/2017 at 10:50 AM, LittleMe Jewell said:

Not sure if this plays into the issue or not, but I was poking around the Wiki and found something quite interesting.  The Inventory section of this page (http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits) mentions that there is a limit on the maximum number of items "displayed" in a single folder.  From reading the info and the info in the linked transcript, if the lost item is contained in a folder that has many many thousands of items, it might not really be lost.  You could try moving lots of the other items in that folder to to another folder.  

In other words, if Folder-A contains many thousands of items, whether those items be sub-folder or individual items, loading Folder-A may hit a limit and not show more, even if there is more.  If you then move lots of items out of Folder-A and then reload inventory (via relog, I assume), then more items will now be shown in Folder-A.

I'm not sure how deleting items might cause this to manifest or show itself, but if you do have a single folder with many many thousands of items, it could be worth moving some stuff to see if missing items then show up.

We had talked about this previously (maybe not this thread as there was another or two on the same subject) and yes apparently that is AN issue. However it has never been MY issue as I have only 30,000 items total (I believe the problem number is 10,000 in a folder - at least that is what was reported) AND I have mostly top level folders AND I save things coalesced often to cut down the number of items. So yes, that is an issue but doesn't seem to the THE issue for those posting losses on these threads :D.  

 

PS. After reading Whirly's comment I guess I should add that my inventory method has ALWAYS been this and with previous big losses I sometimes had only 15,000 items, not the 30,000 I have now. I am also NOW on the newest version of Firestorm so the old viewer doesn't apply to ME anyway :D. 

 

Just wanted to reiterate that. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Chic Aeon
more info

[Prokofy Neva]

On 5/2/2017 at 5:14 AM, Phil Deakins said:

Btw, what's with all the "derp" stuff? I hadn't come across it before so I looked it up. Apparently it's a judgement on what someone says, and not the person themselves as you have used it. I assume it's your way of calling me something like an 'idiot', so I've used it the same way

 

Re: "No, you're wrong. You did say that you looked at your Trash carefully and didn't see anything. That's true. What I asked was whether or not it contained any sub-folders and, if it did, did you look inside them? Your first post didn't cover that, so it's worth asking. I haven't claimed anything. I simply asked. Twisting my words gets you nowhere."

Um, no. I said there was no little arrow. The little arrow lets you know that a sub-folder has something IN IT. So if I didn't see that little arrow such as to click on it, I'd rationally assume there was nothing there. Maybe it didn't display, but whatever, no little arrow.

Re: "The point here is that you could see something was clearly wrong, and yet you went ahead anyway."

As other people in this same thread have done the exact same thing, I'll put out here that once again, you are simply expressing your venom for being called out for years over your "traffic" posts. That's all. I did something completely rational: I saw a message that I had never seen before, I did not think anything BIG was in my trash; I *looked* at my trash and saw only a few dozen folders, so I DID NOT SEE anything wrong with complying with this message, who knows, maybe it was a glitch but NOT KNOWING that a giant folder was about to be ditched, I did what the message -- which kept recurring! -- asked me to do. So did others. The problem is not in my rational behaviour; the problem is in a bug that pushes a big folder into trash. I did not push that big folder into trash.

I've heard all kinds of theories here and I've entertained them, i.e. that maybe the folder simply didn't manifest or maybe I was on the "recent" tab. What you are doing is not discussing anything in good will but simply venting your spleen. So stop it. You only reveal yourself to be indulging in your forums grudges and obsessions for years.

This literalist word salad about "not using Backspace" and imagining that you've "called me out" as claiming "falsely" that "I never use Backspace" when the CONTEXT is clearly *using backspace to delete* is quintessential literalist forums trolling. It exposes itself for what it is, vexing behaviour by an unhappy person.

Derp, derp. All very obvious. 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 4/30/2017 at 2:19 PM, Whirly Fizzle said:

That page is out of date.
As far as I'm aware there is no limit to the amount of items that will load in an inventory folder now.  The limit was removed with the change over to the newest Inventory AIS3 API.
With the older inventory API, the  HTTP CAP limited download of per folder items to about 10MB per folder, which is a little over 10k items per folder - each inventory item takes roughly ~7KB memory.
I'm not sure but I don't think LL turned off the old inventory backend yet so users of outdated viewers may still be using the older inventory API with that limit still in effect.

 

If the folder was merely hidden inside another folder, the inventory number wouldn't suddenly drop from 97,000 to 84,000 or whatever. It would still show the same number. But in this case what happened is that it disappeared into the trash and got flushed.

I am still left with the practical conclusion that the only thing to do is to hang sub-folders off "objects" or "clothing" or some systems folder. At least that way "Objects", a system folder, won't get deleted, correct?

[Whirly Fizzle]

16 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I am still left with the practical conclusion that the only thing to do is to hang sub-folders off "objects" or "clothing" or some systems folder. At least that way "Objects", a system folder, won't get deleted, correct?

I'd avoid putting any subfolders in the system Objects folder for now.
Going by the details given by @MoonieRatty & the confirmation in the comments by @Arwen Serpente on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-100541 , the repro for the bug appears to be having (possibly large) subfolders within the system objects folder and deleting items out of the Objects folder triggering other folders within the objects folder to be silently moved to Trash.

I tried for a long time to reproduce that & so far no luck - not sure if I'm happy about that or not.

I'd be wary of putting subfolders in any of the system folders until we know if this may be causing the bug to trigger.

@Grumpity Linden came to the Server Beta user group today to talk about this bug.
@Inara Pey has a summary of what was said on her blog here: https://modemworld.me/2017/05/05/sl-project-updates-182-server-viewer-inventory-loss/

The full transcript of the meeting is here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta_server_office_Hours/Minutes/2017-05-04

 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Whirly Fizzle
Damn you autocorrect...

[Phil Deakins]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

you are simply expressing your venom for being called out for years over your "traffic" posts.

You must be joking! LOL. I loved those 'discussions' - and I miss them. If you read the forum much, you'd know it, derp. I wish we still had them. I've said that more than once even in this new forum. I enjoyed them like I thoroughly enjoyed showing you up in your own blog, when you'd decided to falsely attack me - 'falsely' because you didn't undertand how the mini-map worked and you jumped to a wrong conclusion. It's all there in your blog, unless you've deleted it, of course. I wouldn't blame you if you have deleted it, because it was so embarrassing for you. Nope, I have no venom concerning the forums - I never have had. From my point of view, they are not as good now as they used to be when traffic manipulation was allowed, but that doesn't generate any sort of venom. I dislike you personally, of course, but that goes without saying.

 

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I did not think anything BIG was in my trash; I *looked* at my trash and saw only a few dozen folders,

And yet the system told you several times that there was a huge number of items in your trash. You keep changing the numbers of what you saw. It started out as a very few items in the Trash. Then it gradually increased to around a couple of dozen items. Now it's up to a few dozen folders - not items any more, which usually means individual things, but folders. You said that none of the folders had little arrows. What on earth were a few dozen EMPTY folders doing in the Trash? Did you put a few dozen empty folders there? It's not a normal thing to do. It can happen, of course, but it's highly unlikely that only empty folders would be in the Trash - and a lot of them too. I can't know the way you organise your inventory but, if I saw a few dozen empty folders in my Trash, I would know immediately that something was wrong. Initially, I would put it down to the inventory not having fully downloaded yet and populated the folders. If I received the 'overflowing' messages at the same time, then I'd certainly wait a considerable amount of time to allow it all to fully download, to find out what on earth was in there, before taking any action.

So you had both the messages and a few dozen empty folders to realise that something wasn't quite right, and yet, like a "good little citizen" (as if lol), you went ahead and deleted it all anyway. Note that I am not saying that your loss is your own fault. There is clearly a bug and the system is at fault. I'm merely saying that, before you emptied the Trash, you had noticed that something was wrong. You knew that either the messages were wrong, or the Trash really was overflowing even though you hadn't seen why. Either way, you knew that something was clearly wrong before you emptied the Trash.

 

Edited May 5, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Prokofy Neva]

So you may be interested to hear how this ended. After waiting nearly a month for a reply from the Lab, supplying information along the way, I nudged them after not hearing anything for two weeks and I got the answer that sadly, they couldn't find the reason for why the folder ended in trash unexpectedly, and sadly, they could not find my inventory. The end.

The added one year subscription to my account as "compensation" but of course that's a token.

I figured out of the 15,000 lost items, at least 7000 were single-copy gachas, purchased at $50/pull, that would mean $1,312 real dollars, if I did the math right. A year's subscription is only $72.

Of course, it could be much more than that, as many items were gatchas (that's why they were in this particular folder and sub-folders) and many cost more than $50. Certainly it wouldn't be much less. 

So it's awful to contemplate, but I've soldiered on, gotten the copyable items back from merchants in many, but not all cases; gotten some of the rare gatchas again by playing the machines just randomly, to see if a few pulls might generate that rare (they did), and trying to look to the future.

It's dampened my enthusiasm...I'm afraid to look back at the blog I have done of my fairs with my purchases because I'll see things I can't get back; on the other hand, I should go through it because I might find things I forgot. 

I've had many losses over my 12 years in SL. Things like spending US $300 to buy land to save the view, suddenly. Things like dumping 2 sims of land for cheap when the LindEx and land market cratered -- was that in 2006 or something? Years of griefing and losses and trying to battle that; years of trying to get the Lindens to do something about ad farms (they did finally).

I made a group called Missing Inventory Activists (MIA) if you'd like to join, but I have to say right now I'm busy with work and family things and won't get active with this group until later in the summer...

In the mean time, beware of "trash" alerts. I had yet another person tell me that as she was receiving a bunny, she saw the folder get shoved into trash, although she didn't touch a thing. Others report this. Never empty your trash when you get that message if you aren't expecting it. Keep your trash emptied normally, checking it carefully, so that when you get a message like that, a, you can afford to ignore it until you figure it out and b, you can get the Lindens to look at it if you can't.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

This is so nonsensical that it's not worth answering almost, but for the record:

 

Re: You keep changing the numbers of what you saw. It started out as a very few items in the Trash. Then it gradually increased to around a couple of dozen items. Now it's up to a few dozen folders - not items any more, which usually means individual things, but folders. You said that none of the folders had little arrows. What on earth were a few dozen EMPTY folders doing in the Trash?

 

Um, items = folders or other things. The material difference between a few and a few dozen when it comes to trash, versus hundreds or thousands that produce an error message, is negligible. Thus to rant about it as you are merely reveals your pettiness and need to be contrarian once again.

Um, what are empty folders doing in trash? They come from the Marketplace, after something is sold. I guess you never have this experience...

And once again, after I've seen a few dozen things -- a very small amount for typical trash, precisely because I constantly kept it clean -- folders from the MP that are empty and have no little arrows showing contents, or perhaps some empty gatcha boxes or duplicates of copyable items -- and I don't see anything amiss, you know, like a folder with exclamation points as part of its name: !!!Bed & Breakfst -- when I keep getting the message, I figure why not delete the trash and relog? Maybe there's a glitch. Because I had never, ever seen such a message. The end.

 

 

[Chic Aeon]

On 5/4/2017 at 9:15 PM, Whirly Fizzle said:

I'd avoid putting any subfolders in the system Objects folder for now.
Going by the details given by @MoonieRatty & the confirmation in the comments by @Arwen Serpente on https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-100541 , the repro for the bug appears to be having (possibly large) subfolders within the system objects folder and deleting items out of the Objects folder triggering other folders within the objects folder to be silently moved to Trash.

I tried for a long time to reproduce that & so far no luck - not sure if I'm happy about that or not.

I'd be wary of putting subfolders in any of the system folders until we know if this may be causing the bug to trigger.

@Grumpity Linden came to the Server Beta user group today to talk about this bug.
@Inara Pey has a summary of what was said on her blog here: https://modemworld.me/2017/05/05/sl-project-updates-182-server-viewer-inventory-loss/

The full transcript of the meeting is here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Beta_server_office_Hours/Minutes/2017-05-04

 

Well I didn't SEE this until now. The no folders under system folders? REALLY?  I suspect almost everyone has that.  Now I know for sure long ago and far away that huge folders lost were at the top level "Home and Garden" for example, but others certainly could have been under system folders as I have LOTS under system folders.  Going off to read some of your links.  I am really not too sure I want to redo my whole inventory though. LOL. Geez. I guess I could have a "Clothing I hope I don't loose if I put it in this folder" category.

Honestly thanks for the info. Head shaking here. 

I will at least move things out of my objects folder (insert sigh). 

 

[Phil Deakins]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Re: You keep changing the numbers of what you saw. It started out as a very few items in the Trash. Then it gradually increased to around a couple of dozen items. Now it's up to a few dozen folders - not items any more, which usually means individual things, but folders. You said that none of the folders had little arrows. What on earth were a few dozen EMPTY folders doing in the Trash?

 

Um, items = folders or other things.

Um, no. The word 'items' here, normally means individual things such as objects, scripts, textures, etc. It does not normally mean folders with items in them.

The material difference between a few and a few dozen when it comes to trash, versus hundreds or thousands that produce an error message, is negligible.

You see, this is a forum and we only have text to communicate with. When you write "very few" or "a few dozen", we understand that you actually mean very few or a few dozen. That's the disadvantage of text. We have to believe what's actually written. The rest of us seem to manage it. In this case, you didn't seem to know how many 'things' were in the trash, or even what they were, when you emptied it. They started out as a low number of items, and ended up as a significantly higher number of folders. I merely pointed out how inconsistent your story was.

Thus to rant about it as you are merely reveals your pettiness and need to be contrarian once again.

It's not a rant. You kept changing your story, and I pointed it out, that's all. I'm sure you can understand the benefit of us knowing what actually happened instead of an ever-changing tale of increasing quantities. You see, if your first story was true, then it was understandable how a glance in the trash led you to believe that there was nothing there that shouldn't have been there. But when you eventually at least tripled the number of things  to a few dozen, and then the things became folders instead of items (which we understand to mean objects and such), it made me wonder if the glance was sufficient. It's difficult to understand how an estimated 'very few' can turn into 'a couple of dozen' and then into 'a few dozen'. It actually sounds like the first quantity was intentionally low, so that everyone could understand how a mistake was virtually impossible, and then increase the quantity bit by bit to the more realistic number after everyone had accepted that a mistake had been virtually impossible. I'm just saying what it looked like. I'm not saying that that's what you did.

And you of all people cannot possibly find fault with someone being petty and having a need to be contrary. Not you Prok. I know of nobody in and around SL who is more contrary than you. You're the master at it. Have you forgotten how embarrassed you were in your own blog when you made a foolish, and inaccurate, attempt at publically crticising me for something you knew nothing about? I'm sure you didn't expect me to even know about it, but that's where you made the mistake, and you were soundly trounced That was you trying to be petty and contrary. It's what you do. On that occasion it backfired on you, but you tried

Um, what are empty folders doing in trash? They come from the Marketplace, after something is sold. I guess you never have this experience...

No I don't.

And once again, after I've seen a few dozen things -- a very small amount for typical trash, precisely because I constantly kept it clean -- folders from the MP that are empty and have no little arrows showing contents, or perhaps some empty gatcha boxes or duplicates of copyable items -- and I don't see anything amiss, you know, like a folder with exclamation points as part of its name: !!!Bed & Breakfst -- when I keep getting the message, I figure why not delete the trash and relog? Maybe there's a glitch. Because I had never, ever seen such a message. The end.

I'll accept that. You would have known if you'd deleted empty folders, causing them to go into the trash.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Phil Deakins

[Callum Meriman]

It would be nice if people could just bloody well stop sniping at each other so that the rest of us could get meaningful information about this very serious problem that prok uncovered and that is still causing a hell of a lot of grief for people.

[Phil Deakins]

I'm responsible on this occasion by questioning her changing quantities - factual but snipe(ish) - but Prok is usually the one responsible. It's one of the main things that she does, and it sets her up for it. But, if she doesn't come back with untruths, I won't say any more. I think that's reasonable, isn't it?

Edited May 23, 2017 by Phil Deakins