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I Can't Believe This Absolute Horror


Prokofy Neva
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7 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

@Marianne McGann - Of course it's the exact same thing, the only difference is that you were able to rescue your folder. You likely did NOT put it in trash. I didn't see my folder despite looking carefully, but as Whirly pointed out, maybe I was only looking on "Recent" -- I actually don't think so, because right before noticing the inventory drop and the missing folder, I searched for something I couldn't find, and then the name of the folder and couldn't find that, so I was likely in regular view, not "recent". 

Ya, I count myself lucky. Nevertheless, it did end up there, and it is highly suspect (to me) that it did end up there, much like your lost folder. 

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How can you repro a bug that randomly puts one of your folders in trash. You can't. Instead you have to show curiosity -- why are there reports of random folders doing this? You can ask people "what were you doing before that happened" but that may be random as well.

To gather data *scientifically*, you know, like these science marchers supposedly advocate, you would have to put out an open call for everyone who had this happen report on their experience. But the Lab will never do that because they aren't a Lab, they'are a Business. That's fine, but then invoking things like "repro the bug" as you would for Science isn't applicable as Science is not really going to be used.

If there was already a known bug that did this you could start with that, maybe it's not really fixed.

Sub-folders have been a religion forever. But I'm now abandoning that religion as they create a weak one-folder point of contact that at any moment can be pulled into trash. I think having folders under "objects" or some other system folder that won't be deleted itself is the only solution and they should promote that.

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2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

How can you repro a bug that randomly puts one of your folders in trash.

Bugs really aren't random, however much they sometimes might seem.  When once seems random it is often because there are hundreds of conditions that must be exactly right before it happens.  Unfortunately, those case are very difficult to debug and thus, if many are not experiencing the problem, then LL will likely not invest resources in figuring it out.

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Sub-folders have been a religion forever. But I'm now abandoning that religion as they create a weak one-folder point of contact that at any moment can be pulled into trash. I think having folders under "objects" or some other system folder that won't be deleted itself is the only solution and they should promote that.

Using the system folders might not be a bad idea actually, but I'd take that further to say you should use more than just Objects.  Divide your folders logically under the system folders.  I think I'd still be leary of having everything, or most everything, in Objects, even with multiple sub-folder hierarchies under it.

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@Pamela Galli yes, that would make a nice solution given that Lindens are unlikely to undertake more serious blanket solutions like offering inventory back-up and restore. Currently system folders like "Objects" are not deletable. So given that, I've now switched to putting all my sub-folders with houses, furniture etc under Objects and forced them up to the top with a # in the name. I used to use !!! but maybe that isn't as visible. So that means at least "Objects" won't get dragged into Trash. 

Of course, inventory loss works in other ways and can be random and seemingly unrelated to folders.

BTW, I was told a tip for inventory recovery that I vaguely remember doing in the past and tried again but it didn't work: logging into the Linden's Hippo!. It just wouldn't let me log in there and dumped me at safe hubs.

@Little Me Jewell It doesn't take hundreds experiencing the problems. Hundreds don't have inventories with 100,000. But right in this thread you can see several prominent creators who experienced this problem and one landlord (me). That should be enough. This is indeed a problem. And I first noticed it in this form when a woman in a group I'm in began talking about it and I sent her some things. Not that it's any consolation. 

I hear you about dividing up the folders. But those system folders aren't so useful in their names for me. And it's hard enough now having it this way with one system folder now ruined for general use, i.e. I have to put subfolders at its top, so that I have to scroll down to see general things. That will force me to file things in folders more.

However at this point, unfiled objects were not touched, and of course items in world were not touched (no guarantee as they can inexplicably disappear). But in principle a sim restore is possible, although the Lindens hate doing it and usually reject doing it on the Mainland; an avatar inventory restore after trash removal is "impossible" they claim. 

Edited by Prokofy Neva
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Well I am actually HAPPY to see that people are taking this seriously as "I" have been writing about it for at least seven years to lots of "oh just clear you cache", "things really aren't broken" etc.  So at least one good thing has come from it. I don't believe it was deliberate either as it HAS happened to lots of folks over the years and none seemed to be particularly "evil" LOL including ME *wink*.   

This isn't really new news to me (and it certainly might be that some people are affected more often depending on where their avatar's inventory resides). BUT, saying that,  I have seen a lot of odd things happening lately like empty folders in my main inventory that shouldn't be empty or as duplicates -- things like that. 

I WILL say that several times I had big losses I ALSO lost my backup files of the items --- hence the main "house and garden" type folder as well as the "backups - 2015 > H and G" folder disappeared. That leads me to believe that SOMETIMES it is an item that might trigger the deletion.

In the last big loss only a few months ago I only recognized the event by seeing my inventory go down by several thousand items AND I HAD NOT EMPTIED TRASH.   I shook my head (again) and figured that I would find the missing things eventually. I did a couple of weeks ago when I was working on a build for SL14B and needed something from my old LEA20 site.  Almost ALL those items from MOSP were gone (and I had MANY BACKUPS by date).   That was a shocker. Most things are OLD by now and I am not terribly crushed, but still.

 

HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM!!!

And to Prokofy (can't get the alerts to come up lately) if that message about redelivery terminals was to me, it will never happen. I absolutely HATE the look of vendors and have all my items out in the old fashioned way with people buying a copy so that they can actually SEE what they are getting. That is MY choice of course and if you decide not to buy items from me again I won't take it as an insult to my modeling abilities :D.  We ARE supposed to be having fun here after all. 

 

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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I thought of an interesting verified example of database issues while taking a break. It was different than the giant folder disappearing thing but a good clue.

A year ago (I remember as it was the first time I was in Tres Chic) my store logo texture disappeared. Not only the 512 but the 256. I checked with friends and alts who should have had a copy. NO copies. Since my logo was from 2010 I no longer had a copy on my computer, the fonts used in making or even the software ^^.  I wrote to the Tres Chic keeper of the logos and asked him to send me back my logo that I had sent to him JUST A COUPLE OF DAYS BEFORE.  It was gone too. 

Luckily I remembered I had a copy in Opensim, got that and uploaded again.   

That was VERY STRANGE.   

I have friends who work with giant databases (not as big as SL but big big web retailers) and they are forever going back to old copies  to fix issues. The problem here is that there don't seem to be any "old copies". ^^ The idea that you can send in a ticket and get things fixed is a nice one but I haven't found anyone yet who has had this work. My close friend got five things back of thousands. That really doesn't cut it.  I never tried as I am not premium. 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Sub-folders have been a religion forever. But I'm now abandoning that religion as they create a weak one-folder point of contact that at any moment can be pulled into trash. I think having folders under "objects" or some other system folder that won't be deleted itself is the only solution and they should promote that.

Funny enough, I've always had avatars, hair, skins, eyes, tattoos & make-up, and more recently mesh body parts, under the Body Parts system folder; all outfits under Clothing; and all the rest under Objects. I didn't do that to prevent inventory loss — only now I understand it's probably the best solution — I just did it because it made sense to me. xD

So, maybe, that's why I only noticed one item missing over the 5+ years I've been in SL. And it's something that I most probably deleted while remodeling my place...

Note: Ah, and textures under Textures, scripts under Scripts, and so on.

Edited by MBeatrix
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4 hours ago, Leia36 said:

This same thing happened to me in 2012, Question: If you log in with a different viewer on a different computer, do the missing items appear?

No, it isn't a cache issue -- at least not mine. And that is what logging in on a new viewer will do.  There have been SOME TIMES when this was a fix. Clearing your cache on you viewer would likely do the same thing and most people try that first. But even with a brand new viewer that you have never used installed, things can be gone.  And lately it seems these losses are happening more often. They aren't new though. They have been around a long, long while (at least nine years).  

I am going to assume that the OP being an old timer did all the "tricks" to retrieve seemingly lost inventory BEFORE they considered it a real loss. There is a whole page in the wiki about Inventory Loss.  Unfortunately it isn't about REAL inventory loss :D. 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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A note about having things all in one top folder (like Objects). Aside from being beyond messy and impossible to find things, there is a possible prolem with too many things in one folder. That is true for sure in Opensim and it is likely a problem here too. Some techie person might know the answer there. 

In Opensim if you get too many items in a folder (maybe 1000? I don't remember the number) then items will not show up any longer in your inventory window. They will apparently be there but not viewable. That wasn't MY problem however as my whole inventory is 30,000 (I purposefully delete many items after I blog them) and I have lots of top level folders.  I also often save backups in coalesced form to keep my numbers down. 

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A folder will not load over 10k items, so you just have to keep it below that. In my objects folder I put older things in sub folders. Also it can cause problems if you have too many things in the top level folder. 

i did have an experience that may be related: one a few months ago day my inventory went down about 15k, and I had not emptied trash. I have not missed anything, so no clue what happened.

Edited by Pamela Galli
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3 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

In Opensim if you get too many items in a folder (maybe 1000? I don't remember the number) then items will not show up any longer in your inventory window. They will apparently be there but not viewable.

 

3 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

A folder will not load over 10k items, so you just have to keep it below that.

As far as I'm aware, there used to be a ~10k limit on how many items would be visible in an inventory folder with the older inventory API, or rather the HTTP CAP truncated download of per folder items to ~10MB per folder, which is roughly 10k items.
However this 10k limit was removed with the move to the latest AIS3 inventory API.
Note that OpenSim does not use the updated AIS3, so that ~10k limit will still apply there.

As far as I'm aware with AIS3 there is no limit to how many items will load in each inventory folder.
I believe this is what's causing the sudden surge, since AIS3 was added, in people timing out during login unless they constantly purge cache due to inventory views taking too long to create during login when the inventory is very flat. Also many thousands of items in a single folder can cause the viewer to freeze dead when that inventory folder is loading after login.

Removing that 10k cap is causing more problems imo.

 

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17 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

 

As far as I'm aware, there used to be a ~10k limit on how many items would be visible in an inventory folder with the older inventory API, or rather the HTTP CAP truncated download of per folder items to ~10MB per folder, which is roughly 10k items.
However this 10k limit was removed with the move to the latest AIS3 inventory API.
Note that OpenSim does not use the updated AIS3, so that ~10k limit will still apply there.

As far as I'm aware with AIS3 there is no limit to how many items will load in each inventory folder.
I believe this is what's causing the sudden surge, since AIS3 was added, in people timing out during login unless they constantly purge cache due to inventory views taking too long to create during login when the inventory is very flat. Also many thousands of items in a single folder can cause the viewer to freeze dead when that inventory folder is loading after login.

Removing that 10k cap is causing more problems imo.

 

Good to know about the SL OS differences and thanks.

Your ideas about where the problems are coming from may be correct for some folks but I have no issues logging in (like EVER unless the grid is down), I never clear my cache unless I have a real issue (like mesh being invisible which hasn't happened in a long while) and don't have thousands of items in a single folder LOL.   So none of those reasons answer why I am (and have always) had issues. 

I can't say that my inventory losses are any WORSE than they have always been (I seem to average about one giant (10,000 items ish) loss a year or two with some smaller not too handy but not catastrophic losses in between. They certainly haven't improved though.  And my inventory is only 30,000 as I have mentioned and I do PURPOSEFULLY empty my trash fairly often AFTER CLOSELY CHECKING the contents *wink*.

I really can't think of anything else I can do to fix this on MY end. Any ideas are welcome.

Edited by Chic Aeon
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@Leia36 No, that made no difference at all because that's not the issue.
@Chic Aeon Yes, I cleared cache, cleared history etc. That's not the issue.

Re: "this 10k limit was removed with the move to the latest AIS3 inventory API."

I was using the regular viewer when this happened; the "latest inventory AIS3" -- is that the release candidate? Or is it now in the standard viewer? BTW I tried logging on with that http viewer now in the list as RC, nothing changed.

My subfolders -- all located in one folder! -- had 15,000. They only recently got up to 15,000 past 10,000, the last few months. Maybe 15,000 literally triggered this bug?

Maybe the system pushes files that overloaded file into trash?

If there are limits of this nature, the Lindens need to put that in their Knowledge Base. They don't. It's like the upper limit of group members. I've found from experience that land groups don't load the land or the members after about 1000 and even 750 is a strain.

You say this is "messy" or "hard" to have multiple sub-folders under "Objects". Well, how else can you do it? Having everything NOT in folder creates a problem because when you search, it finds but then won't let you drag it in world until you cancel search and hope you can locate it again. That huge annoyance I've had for years, filed tickets on, gotten nowhere. Plus, if you are in a situation where you need to pick this table or that chair, being able to review folders to see the options is better than just word-searching "table" as not everything that is a table is named "table" nor modifiable to be renamed.

I think rather than having one sub-folder to a system folder, with dozens of further sub-folders creating one vulnerable point -- which is what I had to be able to see inventory folders spread out better as you mention -- having dozens or even a hundred under "objects" is the best bet. People talk about spreading things over systems folders. Obviously furniture can't go under "scripts" or "clothing" or "notecards". That is, I could start putting tables in "notecards" -- but why? So Objects is where it has to go.

Yes, it means that you have to scroll past those sub-folders to see things not filed yet. But that forces you to file them.

I don't see any advantage to making sub-sub folders as again, the point of vulnerability is created.

One can always start putting inventory on alts but this creates annoyances even if you have all the permissions -- you can't edit things in contents, you have to first edit, then put in content etc etc. 

The other solution is boxes in world. But these load even slower than inventory and you can't word-search them.


 

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Chic Aeon 

Again, if it turns out there really is a hard limit on inventory like 10,000 or 50,000, then we need to be told than and adjust accordingly. Maybe premium features or add-on payable features could be involved in securing larger inventory.

I always empty trash so that it is not confusing in searches and just out of habit with Windows, where I do the same thing. BTW, if there could be a warning message if there is an unusually large amount of trash that might be helpful but probably only save a few individuals their treasures.

At the time this occurred, as I mentioned, I didn't have more than two dozen items in trash as I do regularly empty it.

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5 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Re: "this 10k limit was removed with the move to the latest AIS3 inventory API."

I was using the regular viewer when this happened; the "latest inventory AIS3" -- is that the release candidate? Or is it now in the standard viewer? BTW I tried logging on with that http viewer now in the list as RC, nothing changed.

AIS3 has been out quite a while now in the LL release viewer - around 2 years ago.
I *think* all currently maintained TPVs have made the move over to AIS3 too - not too sure about Singularity though.  The other "V1 based" viewer, CoolVL viewer certainly has AIS3.
All currently maintained "V3" based TPVs (Firestorm, Catznip, Black Dragon, Kokua, Alchemy) certainly use AIS3.

 

13 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Maybe 15,000 literally triggered this bug?

Maybe the system pushes files that overloaded file into trash?

That would be a showstopper bug!

 

 

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On 22/04/2017 at 3:41 AM, seanabrady said:

Actually it's very easy to delete a folder accidentally. Backspacing at the wrong time trying to rename can do it.

I just wanted to highlight this because it could cause folders or loose items to be moved into Trash accidentally.

If you left click to highlight an inventory folder and then click the backspace key, that folder will be deleted.
This is actually expected behaviour in the code but it may not be obvious to everyone that backspace acts as delete.

Also make sure you have not ticked the "Do not show me again" on the "Delete Selected Item?" notification.
If you don't get the "Delete Selected Item?" notification then enable it again in viewer preferences.

LL viewer: Preferences -> Notifications -> Never show -> select "Confirm before deleting items" -> Click ^
Firestorm viewer: Preferences -> Notifications -> Alerts -> Never show -> select "Confirm before deleting items" -> Click ^

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1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

So: It takes a minimum of three steps to actually forever delete something under normal circumstances.

1 select and drag to trash or delete

2 confirm deletion

3 purge / empty 

 

 

Possibly only two - The 'confirm' dialog might be one of the notification types that can be turned off (i.e. don't show me this darn message again)

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3 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Possibly only two - The 'confirm' dialog might be one of the notification types that can be turned off (i.e. don't show me this darn message again)

Yes, as Whirly says. My point is that all viewers have this capability built in, so we can have three points at which we can still cancel a final deletion. I can't imagine anyone turning off the confirmation thing for trash, but some no doubt do.

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  • 3 months later...

Today is  August 12th.  Last night  as I  was  attempting to organize  inventory  while shopping  in world  ,I  received the  message  that  my trash  was overflowing  and should be emptied  at once  .  In all of  my over 10 years in Second life  I had NEVER  received  this message   so I  did  a dumb  thing  .......semi  panicked  and  emptied trash  ,  before  a  real  panic set in  of  "What  did I just  do to my inventory".

Now  I am missing  a  HUGE folder  named  Decorations  ........where  every holiday  , every  club  event  I decorated for  , all lighting  ect  has  gone.

After  reading these posts  I  am  really  upset  at  how this  "error message"    was allowed to show up on my imac   which  told me to  empty trash   and most  of all  how  a   folder I   created  and  never moved  ended up  in  my trash  .

Hugs sigh   and I will file a ticket  ....  understanding that  items  mistakenly  deleted   are  gone  forever  :_( 

 

Please  Linden Labs  ...........  look into this  and  please   and  find a  way  to  save  trash  .

Pearl Poppy 

Premium member  since  05

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20 minutes ago, Pearl Poppy said:

 ,I  received the  message  that  my trash  was overflowing  and should be emptied  at once  .  In all of  my over 10 years in Second life  I had NEVER  received  this message   so I  did  a dumb  thing  .......semi  panicked  and  emptied trash 

if right you also got a second message if you were sure to empty your trash( at least it does on Firestorm)... that's there with a reason.

some of the warnings you can disable, so if you ever said "don't show this again"  ..... you don't get it again, and empty = empty in that case.

 

What more warnings would people like to get?... I realize well that doesn't help you in this, but more warnings and locks won't make the inventory more safe of workable.

There are loads of posts with this problem.

It's a huge loss for you, so fingers crossed for the help of support.

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56 minutes ago, Pearl Poppy said:

Please  Linden Labs  ...........  look into this  and  please   and  find a  way  to  save  trash  .

Pearl Poppy 

Premium member  since  05

I have no help for your lost inventory.  However, I'm guessing you don't have the latest viewer version and should therefore go get it downloaded.  They have at least added a message that tells you how many items will be deleted and you cannot disable that message.

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