Penny Patton

Of Men and Giants and Men Who Are Giants But Don't Mean to Be

37 posts in this topic

So, what is the deal with "human" men being 8-9' tall in RP sims?

First off, I just want to say this isn't about avatar height in general. I completely understand that many people in SL are just here to fit in and enjoy themselves and the path of least resistance, for men at least, is to crank up the height slider so they don't look like a midget when going to the clubs, events, etcetera. This isn't even about the people who show up in an RP sim in swimming trunks or clubber clothes and start asking the nearest elf or priestess, "So, what brings you here, sexy?" And I'm definitely not talking about non-human characters, my own minotaur avatar is 7'4". I'm talking about the people who dress up and actually RP as normal, human characters. More specifically I'm talking about RP sims that actually take the effort to encourage proper scale, like Doomed Ship, Minotaur Empire, Amazon Rainforest, Revenland and others. It just seems to me that if you're role-playing a character in a sim that has gone out of its way to encourage a uniform sense of scale, but go ahead and make your "six foot" character 8' tall anyway it makes about as much sense as wearing a blonde hairpiece and insisting your character is a redhead, or wearing medieval plate armour and calling yourself a Roman gladiator.

 I mean, I get that SL has always had strange scale issues, but these days if you're using Firestorm or most other TPV you can see your avatar's height right in the appearance editor and most women, even those who don't go to RP sims, seem to have shrunk to more typical human sizes. Yet most men I see in these sims tend to be around 8' tall and still get oddly bent out of shape if you RP back as if they were as tall as they are. Even if they refer to you as "little one" when you're 2-3 feet taller than their character supposedly is.

 Again, the women I see in these sims tend to be human sized, and I see more women avatars in these sims than men. There's exceptions of course (this is SL), but on the whole most woman you run into in places like these are likely going to be around 5'7". Men though? It's incredibly rare to see a man avatar that is under 7' tall. Rarer still to see one under 6'6". In the past week alone I've seen three different avatars that had to be 8' or taller, with RP profiles describing their characters as being about 6' tall. And these are people who otherwise seem to be putting effort into their appearance, with appropriate outfits, backstories, etcetera.

 So what is it that is stopping men from scaling down their avatars to be the size of their characters in these RP sims and others like them? 

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I remember you asking this same question once before.

On 7/28/2016 at 0:14 PM, ValorWhit said:

 


Penny Patton wrote:
I feel it's important to know 
why
they make their avatars so big in the first place 

 

 Don't try to over think it.  It is the same reason a man does anything.

Why do I have a pierced ear?  Because when I was 17 a cute girl said she likes earrings.

Why do I have tattoos?  Because another girl said she liked men with ink.

Why do I wear boots?  Some pretty thing said the clunking foot steps sounded sexy.

Which brings me to the original question.  I need to know the best height to be when standing next to a woman in Second Life.  For every 8' tall man there is a 7'8" woman that told him he needed to be taller.  It really is that simple.:matte-motes-nerdy:

The same answer still fits.  Because that's what women expect from men.

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The funniest thing about the male SL shape - even with mesh bodies - is that the taller your get the smaller one's head looks. And so we get the walnuts-in-sausage-skin-muscled 9' tall, 5' wide shoulder hunk o'beefs with pea-heads (and feet at size 0).

But old habits die hard for them. The clubs they attend are filled with the same (static) mesh heads and body proportions - and nobody likes to be the only person who is knee high.

I recall there was a fantastic blog article from a few years back from a very clever lady talking about realistic sizes, and mentioning that being smaller means one can fit more on one's property, plus for rollplay you could then have decent monsters that looked scary. Wise words - more of these people need to read that article.

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My partner logged in on an RP alt the other day.  He was giant (pic on my feed) I laughed and teased him a little since all his other alts are a normal height.  He simply said he would be out of place in this particular RP setting if he went in properly scaled.  So, I  think it just depends on where you go.

I have seen more realistically scaled avs in the last year than 6 years ago.  Furniture and buildings are getting better as well.  I no longer look like a child sitting on most of the newer furniture and no longer feel like I am entering a giants castle when entering a house.  

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13 minutes ago, ValorWhit said:

I remember you asking this same question once before.

The same answer still fits.  Because that's what women expect from men.

In the nightclubs and those hook-up spaces in SL where people are still typically on the larger size? Sure, that answer makes sense. Newbie avatars fresh off Social Island with a 7' starter avatar? Makes sense. If you're in a sim where the women are only a little shorter than you are, I totally get why you wouldn't want to be the short one.

But, again, I'm specifically talking about Role-play sims, a growing number of which actively encourage avatars to be in scale and where the human women you find are typically human sized. Today, in these sims, surrounded by these women, that answer just doesn't hold up. Because no, the women you typically find in these RP sims don't expect that of men. They giggle about it and roll their eyes.

9 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

My partner logged in on an RP alt the other day.  He was giant (pic on my feed) I laughed and teased him a little since all his other alts are a normal height.  He simply said he would be out of place in this particular RP setting if he went in properly scaled.  So, I  think it just depends on where you go.

I have seen more realistically scaled avs in the last year than 6 years ago.  Furniture and buildings are getting better as well.  I no longer look like a child sitting on most of the newer furniture and no longer feel like I am entering a giants castle when entering a house.  

Case in point.

Also, yeah, everything seems to be getting smaller these days and I think the points raised in the article Callum mentions have a lot to do with that. People are starting to realize that being 8' tall for no reason is costing them money and making it more difficult to look good. And yeah, it totally does depend on where you go. But I guess what I'm saying is that I see women shrinking down in the places I go, but not men. And that's weird.

Maybe ValorWhit is right in that men think they need to be that tall, but I can tell you, from the other side of the chromosome aisle, I find more people laughing about it than clamouring for it. A little tip for the guys out there, when you see a sim full of women  half your size, they didn't make themselves that small because they like staring at your navel.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

But, again, I'm specifically talking about Role-play sims, a growing number of which actively encourage avatars to be in scale and where the human women you find are typically human sized.

Can you give an example where you see this often? I can only comment on the places I have been.  What did the guys there say when you asked them about their out of character height?

 

A little tip for the guys out there, when you see a sim full of women  half your size, they didn't make themselves that small because they like staring at your navel.

Can you tell me where to find this place? Are these combat sims maybe? As a 6.66' avatar I am usually boob high to women whether I'm at a jazz club or a family RP sim.  6 foot 8" not counting boots and the top half of my head and yet I have been called a kid on an RP sim.

Edited by ValorWhit

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1 minute ago, ValorWhit said:

Can you give an example where you see this often? I can only comment on the places I have been. 

I already named four. Doomed Ship, Amazon Rainforest, Minotaur Empire and Revenland. I'll add Mjolka Kyr and the Wastelands to that.

I've been to a few others to, but don't recall the names.

3 minutes ago, ValorWhit said:

What did the guys there say when you asked them about their out of character height?

"I don't want to look like a midget compared to the other guys."

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Hmm, the bigger the man, the less odd a large 'part' looks.:D

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8 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Hmm, the bigger the man, the less odd a large 'part' looks.:D

You'd think that would encourage them to scale down, so that the part in question would look larger proportionately. xD

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2 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

You'd think that would encourage them to scale down, so that the part in question would look larger proportionately. xD

While that makes logical sense to me, I think guys only care about real size - and they sure don't want to maybe be smaller than whomever the partner was with before.

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1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

Doomed Ship, Amazon Rainforest, Minotaur Empire and Revenland. I'll add Mjolka Kyr and the Wastelands to that.

I tried to look into these places.  

First, my size: 6.61'  I thought it was 6.66 or 6'8" but I am just a little under that.
Snapshot_054.jpg.e38f5fd48a771d5d61c0ff75e9e9f2ef.jpg

At The Doomed Ship entrance I saw some rods with heights over them.  There was another one to touch that said I was 7'6" tall. While I was looking around a woman came in.  I said I didn't think I was that tall.  She laughed and said not to trust those things. 

Snapshot_051.thumb.jpg.e7479d57d07ff27a9799b090ec76b004.jpg
After I left I noticed my hover was set at +0.200 which was a little bit off the floor.  I set it back to 0 for the next stop.

 

After that I went to Amazon Rain forest.  There were 3 women at the landing point.  These were the smaller of them.  They were about scale to me.
Snapshot_052.thumb.jpg.f7744f7317100a22d91ecb61fd495924.jpg
The 3rd girl left before I could get a snapshot next to her.

 

I then went to Revendland.  I waited at the entrance for about 30 minutes but did not see another person.  There was the statue or NPC guy there that was much shorter than I so I took a picture with that.
Snapshot_053.thumb.jpg.919fd060d1c6ac56f2b58e9853a52dcd.jpg

 

After that I went to Wastelands.  I am not dressed for most of these places but from the name of the sim I thought I could go in past the landing point.  In the Wastelands, I am a head taller than the entry bot guard bot guy.  I went in to the big area and looked around.  I did see a guy named kitty that was much smaller than I who immediately came over and attacked me with a sword looking weapon.  I didn't hang around to get a photo since it was obvious I did not fit in.

 

My quick look at RP places were not much different from the last info hub I was at. 6' 7" according to LL.  7'6" according to an object.  I am plainly not wearing 11" heals so I'll trust the only solid reference I have.  In any case, I met 2 women slightly taller than I, two women slightly shorter than I and one man that was much shorter than I.  I never got the chance to meet a giant male or ask why he was out of scale with everyone else.

This is all just  one trip late on Sunday evening so maybe it is different at other times.

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3 minutes ago, ValorWhit said:

I tried to look into these places.  

First, my size: 6.61'  I thought it was 6.66 or 6'8" but I am just a little under that.
Snapshot_054.jpg.e38f5fd48a771d5d61c0ff75e9e9f2ef.jpg

You're using the stock LL viewer? The height has been broken in that since LL added it. LL actually admitted that it was broken before it was officially released, but they planned to put a fix out for it eventually. That was about 6-7 years ago. Before that, the height wasn't listed at all. The height rulers at Doomed Ship are more accurate, to within a few inches. You are, objectively, about seven and a half feet tall. If you want a 100% accurate measurement hop on a pose stand, rez a prim, and measure yourself manually. Prims are measured in metric with a default 0.500x0.500x0.500 plywood cube being half a metre to a side.

As for your field trip experience, it really should go without saying that running to those sims to grab a few quick screenshots at the landing point, in the middle of the night on a Sunday is not quite the same as spending most of the past few years being a regular, active role-player in these sims. I did point out in my original post that this is Second Life so you are going to see giant avatars and a lot of them, like the woman in the casual wear at the sci-fi/horror spaceship sim, don't even try to fit in. They're like you, just there for a quick look-see, not to spend any length of time there.

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But this does bring up a good point that, at least if you're using the stock LL viewer (and I imagine a lot of people are), it still misleads people on avatar sizes due to an uncorrected bug.

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Interesstingly, I face the exact opposite in World of Warcraft RP a lot. Not small guys, mind you, but small Kaldorei females. (The nightelfs are tall, females usually are about 2m tall - yet almost every Kaldorei I see is somehow 1.60m, or describes as being "very small for her race". ) - I figured it has something to do with the old stereotypes/chliches of  "guys need to be big and strong to protect their girl", and "girls need to be small and petite to give a guy the feeling he needs to protect her" Can't really explain it better.

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10 hours ago, ValorWhit said:

I remember you asking this same question once before.

The same answer still fits.  Because that's what women expect from men.

If so, you guys wouldn't leave the toilet seat up. (Though you did say "expect" not "want".)

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Why, pray do tell, do you think there would be any logic in Second Life?

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17 hours ago, Penny Patton said:

You're using the stock LL viewer? The height has been broken in that since LL added it. LL actually admitted that it was broken before it was officially released, but they planned to put a fix out for it eventually. That was about 6-7 years ago. Before that, the height wasn't listed at all. The height rulers at Doomed Ship are more accurate, to within a few inches. You are, objectively, about seven and a half feet tall. If you want a 100% accurate measurement hop on a pose stand, rez a prim, and measure yourself manually. Prims are measured in metric with a default 0.500x0.500x0.500 plywood cube being half a metre to a side.

Good idea!  I didn't know the viewer's calculations were wrong.  Do you know where they said that?  Possibly why it might be wrong?

The prim box is a perfect idea for finding exact height.  I just did these a few minutes ago.  

I set my hover up high so I could get a good look under it.  With build mode pose turned on I was set.
Snapshot_057.thumb.jpg.711182530009a703a878813022b569cf.jpg

 

Then I stretched the box up until just the tips of my hair are showing.
Snapshot_058.thumb.jpg.4a35153cc50ee1969969c067553f12da.jpg

 

The box says I am 2.098 meters tall.    Google says that is 6.8832021 feet or 6' 10 1/2" tall.  That is 3 1/2" taller than the height window says.  7 1/2" shorter than the script-o-sizer thing said.  Does the script writer have some sort of agenda or is the calculation just flawed?  I think I'll stay with what the engine calculates.  I have found myself a nice average size and don't feel like changing it very often.  I am to scale with most women and that's all that matters.

 

If I hang around long enough I am sure I can find some 8' tall men.  What I have seen so far, the men don't have any sort of Monopoly on that.  I see everybody in all sizes in equal measures.

 

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Just now, ValorWhit said:

Good idea!  I didn't know the viewer's calculations were wrong.  Do you know where they said that?  Possibly why it might be wrong?

I know they said it was wrong on both the Jira and during multiple Office Hours meetings. I'd have to go looking to find it, though. I haven't messed with the Jira in a while.

2 minutes ago, ValorWhit said:

The box says I am 2.098 meters tall.    Google says that is 6.8832021 feet or 6' 10 1/2" tall.  That is 3 1/2" taller than the height window says.  7 1/2" shorter than the script-o-sizer thing said.  Does the script writer have some sort of agenda or is the calculation just flawed?

Not everything is a conspiracy. I've always found the "accurate" scripted height rulers to be accurate to within about 3-4 inches. The AgentSize is off by about 6 inches. All else being equal, that is what you'll see. HOWEVER, AgentSize is a measurement of your avatar's bounding box, and the "accurate" scripted rulers use AgentSize and apply a math fudge to it. If you're getting something substantially different than that, the most likely explanation is that your visible avatar is not 1=1 with your actual system avatar. This can happen a lot of ways. Some mesh attachments alter your height slightly (I recall a friend who discovered a pair of rigged leggings they would wear caused their avatar to visible grow/shrink, but the change was only visible, agent size and scripted rulers showed no change). Deformers change your avatar size without changing AgentSize. Many avatars use masking to hide their feet while wearing shoes, and their actual system feet reach much lower than the visible attachment footwear. Hover height also changes the height you will get from scripted rulers and AgentSize without changing your visible avatar (aside from making you float a bit). But this is why I recommend measuring with a prim because it is the only 100% accurate way to get the size of your visible avatar, what everyone sees.

12 minutes ago, ValorWhit said:

 I have found myself a nice average size and don't feel like changing it very often.  I am to scale with most women and that's all that matters.

 

If I hang around long enough I am sure I can find some 8' tall men.  What I have seen so far, the men don't have any sort of Monopoly on that.  I see everybody in all sizes in equal measures.

 

Ok, you do realize no one said you should change, right? I was making an observation on avatars who frequent specific types of sims and you seem to be applying this observation to yourself when, by your own admission, you are not who I was talking about and you do not hang out in the types of sims I am talking about.

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28 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

king an observation on avatars who frequent specific types of sims

You were preaching the dogma for you campaign of the week using false assumption and sexist ideas as you foundation of facts.  I decided it would be fun to dispute them.  So I did.  With solid and repeatable evidence.

This is not the hill ...

10/77 we're clear.

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While on the whole height subject, today I actually saw, a human male avatar that was shorter than mine. I am not talking about shorter than me in heels, but he would have been shorter than me if i was barefoot. That might be a first for me. My SL son's teenage avatar is taller than mine.

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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, ValorWhit said:

You were preaching the dogma for you campaign of the week using false assumption and sexist ideas as you foundation of facts.  I decided it would be fun to dispute them.  So I did.  With solid and repeatable evidence.

This is not the hill ...

10/77 we're clear.

You seem to be taking all of this awfully personally and seeing conspiracies where none exist. No one is attacking you or your avatar choices. If you hang out in sims where everyone is super tall, I fully encourage you to use an avatar that makes you feel comfortable in that environment.

 If you want to dispute a claim I make as being factually incorrect that's fine, but do it with actual evidence not "I went to a sim once in the middle of the night and didn't see what you were talking about so it must not be true." and make sure you're disputing a claim I actually made, not one you wanted to hear because you came looking to disagree from the beginning.

Edited by Penny Patton
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4 hours ago, ValorWhit said:

You were preaching the dogma for you campaign of the week using false assumption and sexist ideas as you foundation of facts.  I decided it would be fun to dispute them.  So I did.  With solid and repeatable evidence.

This is not the hill ...

10/77 we're clear.

Appearance editor heights were known to be wrong for years, and the why is simple...

SL automatically added 17 cm ground clearance between your avatar's hitbox and the ground so you wouldn't make scraping bumping noises everywhere you went. Hover height also adds to your inworld height, as do shoebases. These days TPV's add that 17 cm into the appearance editor height, SL viewer does not.

Those in world height meters get your hitbox size with a script call, add the 17 cm and report your actual SL height from ground level to the top of your skull. Set your hover height to 0.2? Congratulations you added 20 cm or about 8 inches to your in world height, plus that 6.4  inches or so of ground clearance, so a total of just over 14 inches, you are 6.61 feet in appearance editor, plus about 14 inches = 7'9" - 7'10" or there abouts, so it sounds like the first height meter you poked uses a faulty conversion rate from metric to imperial, not uncommon, just accept that the height reported in SL-Viewer's appearance editor is less than your total inworld height with shoes bases, hover height, and systemic ground clearance.
 

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On 4/17/2017 at 7:04 AM, ValorWhit said:

I remember you asking this same question once before.

The same answer still fits.  Because that's what women expect from men.

Correct, I agree with you:) 

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lol @ Penny Patton they are not just giants in RP trust me, i dunno maybe they tryin to make up for something else in rl thats small giggles, i love the guys who run around with 20 inch cocks, smh what is that all about ? haha

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