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2 hours ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

Actually i haven't! I feel like i've missed out on that entire scene. I have no experience thereof.

I think the scenario there is a little different, people come in and stay for the whole event, right? So it's not people leaving and coming constantly.

 

I was (still am I guess) a big fan of Mak Kline.  I also have a friend that used to help manage several live performers.  One of the biggest events I saw took place on the adjacent corners of 4 sims and lasted 24 hours.  One sim was group entry only and that was reserved for performers.  It was the north west sim and the stage faced southeast.  The other 3 sims were for the audience.  The boarders were marked off so you knew where it was safe to walk.  And of course, all the sims played the same stream.  People came and went depending on schedules and who was playing that you wanted to hear.

There was also a RL presence for some of thes.  Basically several of the musicians wanted to meet each other so they got together and rented a hotel conference room.  So while they would play at the hotel and stream it live on SL..  This meant it was also common for different performers to play and sing together for a few songs. 

I have been away for a few years and have not been as active in live music scene as I was since I came back; I'm not sure if they still do festivals like this any more.

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/me pops the popcorn  While there will be people who go to the extreme for the drama of virtual goods,  I believe most won't notice.   Premium members who pay a monthly fee to SL keep t

You forgot, "This parking lot is full except for these spaces reserved for handicapped people." Aren't you going to complain about that?

I'm just going to jump in here and say that the important thing is that, clearly, no one heard me say BREEDABLE SHOES, they EXISTED! Pffft.

Oh, I have no doubt that you can list hundreds, or even thousands, if you want to, but I wasn't talking about small businesses. You can check this if you like but I did say," well-established, and well-known stores/creators" and "bigger stores". There have always been thousands of small stores, and you can list them all if you like, but I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about those that make significant RL money - thousands of US$ each and every month. Trying to shift the focus doesn't work ;)

You can argue all you like, but the bottom line is that the top quality stuff that's sold at events are almost all available afterwards. I did admit that colour variations were a possible exception, and I'll add, since you mentioned it, that texture variations probably are too. They are not what I'm talking about and don't come into my discussion. I covered colour variations earlier.

 

45 minutes ago, Bitsy Buccaneer said:

Phil, do you not realise how often others in the forum point out the ways in which your thinking and reactions aren't representative of the norm? Or do you just ignore that in order to proceed with your argument?

Actually, no I don't realise it. What I do realise is that there are 2 to 4 people in this discussion who disagree with me, you being one of them. I also realise the 'likes' that I've received for some of my posts in this discussion. You'd have to go back quite a long way to find another example of a thread where I was on the opposite side of a 'debate' to other people. You'll only find examples in the archives, so I assume you mean this thread. I also believe that what I've said is correct, otherwise i wouldn't have said it. Both sides believe that of themselves, y'know ;)

I don't ignore other people's views when they differ from mine, but I do continue with the discussion - just like all of us who disagree with each other do. It takes more than one to argue, y'know ;) I see no reason to cave in just because a very small number of people, who have a vested interest in getting into those darned events, don't like what I say. Heck, I was once in a thread where I said something that wound a few people up the wrong way. Something that was perfectly true, incidentally. From then on everyone jumped on the 'get Phil' bandwagon, regardless of the fact that they were all totally wrong. You probably think that it was me who was wrong, because it was me against the rest, right? So I'll tell you what I wrote (it all still exists in the archives). I wrote that "many, perhaps most, women in SL imagine that the men want to have sex with them". That was perfectly true - many SL women did think that. Maybe many still do. One female person decided that my use of the word 'many' actually meant the majority. It didn't mean that then, and it doesn't mean it now. If it did mean it, I would not have included the words, "perhaps most". But come hell or high water, and regardless of their own native language (english), they just had to insist that I meant something different to what I wrote, and fired all sorts of flak at me for it. One of them still posts in the forum. I was on my own, but I was right and they were wrong.

So you see, just because more people think differently to you doesn't mean that you're wrong. The majority isn't always right, and that's why I continue when I believe that I'm right. In this case, the majority is just a very few people who prefer to get into fashion events as soon as possible and who, therefore, have a vested interest in persuading us all that the new system is wrong. Yes it's wrong for them and people like them, but they are a very small minority of SL's users.

 

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Most conversations I have had with people questioning the benefits of premium membership go something like this ...

"Well, you can have a free Linden home or purchase a 512m plot on mainland without having to pay tier on it." 

"Who the heck wants to live in one of those ugly houses, with such a small prim allowance, or on mainland with its lack of covenants and poor region management>"

"Hmmm ... you get a 300L per week stipend too."

"I spend 10 times that just tipping DJs in a week, that is a drop in the bucket."

"Oh there are sandboxes and regions only open to premium members"

"I have my own sandbox on the homestead I rent/ my landlord provides a sandbox to tenants/who the heck wants a use of a sandbox when I can buy what I want. I have seen pictures of those premium only regions, and why would I want to go there?"

Many I have encountered have never been to mainland, they are not builders (and have no need of a sandbox), and they spend far more per month in Second Life than a premium member spends on the membership fee. Quite a few have also voiced the opinion that premium account holders, far from being the elite, are in fact, the hoi polloi, too hard up financially to afford tiers or rents on private estates, or spend money on nice houses, and are forced to live in the LL free premium home ghetto. 

The perks that LL gives premium members are viewed by more than a few as attempts to make those who cannot afford nicer things feel welcome in SL. A good many premium members spend far less in SL than non premium members, living on the cheap, so to speak. I have encountered few, outside the forums, who think of premium members as the elite of SL. Given how many premium account holders do live cheaply in SL, I wonder whether they would have that much an impact on sales events to the point that non premium members would sense there is anything unfair or amiss.

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@Nikolai Warden A quick sidetrack since you mentioned it. I have never come across the attitude that premium members think of themselves as an elite. I haven't seen it in the forum and I haven't seen it inworld. At least not that I've recognised as such. I do believe, though, that I've seen it the other way round (sort of) in the forum, where a basic member imagines that premium members consider themselves to be elite.

It sounds to me that the attitudes you've described don't exist in premium members but DO exist in basic members, even to the extent of that "hoi polloi" idea. That sounds like basic members, with an inferiority complex, putting down premium members because they imagine that the premium members think so highly of themselves.

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@Nikolai Warden ,

I am a premium member.  I love my little home on Linden managed land.  It fits my needs and gives me yet another place to relax.

You are right that 300 a week is almost like nothing at all.  But then so is $25US per quarter which is my plan.  Yes, yearly is a better value but I think we have already agreed that the amounts involved are trivial..

I don't use sandboxes either.  I build and script a little for fun but I rather go where I am comfortable and I am never comfortable working in public.

18 minutes ago, Nikolai Warden said:

they spend far more per month in Second Life than a premium member spends on the membership fee.

Be honest.  That's like saying you can make a better hog dog than 7-11.  Haven't we already established that the monthly premium cost is very low?  I spend more in a Saturday on impulse buys while going around picking up group gifts than I do for a month of premium. 

 

25 minutes ago, Nikolai Warden said:

The perks that LL gives premium members are viewed by more than a few as attempts to make those who cannot afford nicer things feel welcome in SL.

Pics or it didn't happen.

I don't understand where you get your statistics on how much money people spend in SL but I have yet to meet anyone with a 100% free avatar that has ever had a premium membership.  It kind of goes against the whole 100% free thing and all that.

I would bet that if you ranked the entire population based on how much money they have put into SL you would find premium members evenly dispersed across the spectrum.  Also, such a sort would not be insightful about the SL economy as a whole.  What about all those people who operate in the black?  Where do they fit in with your vision?  Are they all economic bleeders?

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Rhonda, I mistyped something ... I meant to say that I know many who spend more in a month than premium account holders spend on the premium in a year. 

As far as the rest of my post ... it is not my vision. I was relaying the gist of various conversations I have had over the years with others. Nice mainland sims are expensive to purchase after all, and I have certainly seen (and know) quite a number of premium members who spend a lot in SL. Those I know in SL with premium accounts tend to live on private estates and use their Linden homes for a safe haven on Tuesdays while fleeing the rolling restarts. I lived on a mainland sim myself for 15 months. It was actually during that time I heard the worst of such comments. One friend of mine who has a very successful business in SL and is about 10 years in SL swears he has never once been to mainland. That is much of what I hear, OMG I would never go to mainland, how _____ (insert negative stereoype). In fact, some of the clubs these people frequent and places they shop are located on the mainland. 

I was attempting to address something I noted as a mite odd here in the forums, this notion that people who have premium accounts are seen as elite when I have not encountered many who view them in such a fashion. I was not disparaging those with such accounts. There may be divisiveness in SL for various reasons but whether one has a premium account or not does not, in world, seem to be one of them.

Offering blessings to some does not mean cursing others, and the perks offered for premium accounts are not excessive nor do they seem to have much impact on those without such accounts.  

I have no facts or data to back up what I said, as I was recounting the essence of myriad conversations I have had with others, though I do know what some pay for rent, and I have seen how much a great many spend on tips at parties ($15 to upwards of $40 USD a week).

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3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

You'd have to go back quite a long way to find another example of a thread where I was on the opposite side of a 'debate' to other people. You'll only find examples in the archives, so I assume you mean this thread. I also believe that what I've said is correct, otherwise i wouldn't have said it. Both sides believe that of themselves, y'know ;)

I don't ignore other people's views when they differ from mine, but I do continue with the discussion - just like all of us who disagree with each other do. It takes more than one to argue, y'know ;)

Ha. I've got the scars to prove it. Then again that was a time when the SL economy and LL corporate culture were worth debating. Who knew you could look back fondly on warfare?

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3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

h, I have no doubt that you can list hundreds, or even thousands, if you want to, but I wasn't talking about small businesses. You can check this if you like but I did say," well-established, and well-known stores/creators" and "bigger stores". There have always been thousands of small stores, and you can list them all if you like, but I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about those that make significant RL money - thousands of US$ each and every month. Trying to shift the focus doesn't work ;)

 

Most creators start out the same -- we just love making stuff, so we do it. But when you reach the point where you quit your day job and depend on your store to support your family, it would be foolish not to pay attention to the bottom line, however you think best. (There is no one best way to run a SL business.) You really can't neatly divide most full time creators into those in it because they are artists and those who are in it for money, because most can't afford to spend that much time on a rather expensive hobby without significant compensation. 

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I've been a premium member since mid 2007 so my first instinctive reaction to the news was "What's the big deal?" until I looked into it more closely. My main influence to being a premium member was owning land. LIke most people, I started off as a free account and rented from land owners, acquring larger and larger parcels until it made more sense to go premium and buy land as it would ultimately be cheaper in the long run.

Since then, Linden Lab has offered more perks for premium members over the years. Premium Sandboxes, Linden Homes, Premium Gifts. All of those were fluff to me as my primary purpose for premium was land ownership. All of these things added to the premium users experience and took nothing away from the free user. Land ownership already had a premium requirement and as for the other perks....free members really aren't missing anything out on that. They are items nobody had and then suddenly premium members got them as they rolled them out.

The Premium Reservation is probably one of the first things that actually takes away something from the free user experience. Before you had an equal chance to get into a full sim as a premium user and now there's the 10% buffer which could keep you stuck on the outside for an extended amount of time at an already busy event sim. Many premium users don't care. It doesn't change much of their Second Life experience other than they might be able to get into a busy sim slightly easier.

People who don't go to large events don't understand why there is a rush to get items that will appear in their main stores later. I think that part is psychological. Ever gone to a party and discover someone there is also wearing the exact same outfit that you are....the same witty printed tshirt becomes less witty if another person shows up with the same printed tshirt. A fabulous dress becomes less fabulous when another woman shows up wearing it and makes you feel like a twin. Everyone in just about every social circle tries to express their individuality by what we wear. If 3 people show up somewhere and they all have the same Skrillex Haircut, what do you think of them? So people rush out and get the newest hair or outfit because if your friends see you already have it....it makes you somewhat unique and they will more than likely avoid getting the same exact item as you.

I spent a good period of my SL existance buying new motorcycles that ranges from 4000 L$ and up and would pick a new model up as soon as it came out. I have had friends in my own social circle tell me that they saw the new motorcyle came out but because I had already gotten it so quickly that they didn't want to get the same one because they didn't want to be seen riding around the same sims on the same bike as someone else. People are odd this way, but it's partially why the demand is so high the first couple of days at these events, regardless of the fact that the same items will be available in the creator's main shop after the event. It's something new. It's something you can go out and get before your friends and lay your claim on being a unique snowflake amongst your immediate peers. It's school yard behavior of wanting to be part of the crowd that has the newest toy that everyone else is getting but maybe in a fashion where you might still be distinct from everyone else. I was a child of the 70s and it was important even then to be one of the kids with the new Incredible Hulk TV series metal lunchbox but not the same picture depicted on the side as my classmate Johnny has, because even at the age of 8 something inside of me said having the exact same lunch box was lame and I needed to be the same and yet a littlle different to still be a unique snowflake.

I believe what free to play users are feeling is that premium reservation "feature" is less about making it easier for premium users to teleport into a full sim and more about  Linden Lab placing up one of those "Buy a pass to access" ban lines that you can set on parcels...in this case, packed out event estates, and the price of a fair chance of entry is premium membership into the pocket of Linden Lab and not into the event organizer/estate owner's.

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6 hours ago, DartAgain said:

Ha. I've got the scars to prove it. Then again that was a time when the SL economy and LL corporate culture were worth debating. Who knew you could look back fondly on warfare?

lol. I do. And I miss it. I really do miss the bot wars we used to have :(

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1 hour ago, Duckie Dickins said:

So people rush out and get the newest hair or outfit because if your friends see you already have it....it makes you somewhat unique and they will more than likely avoid getting the same exact item as you.

While I personally am not motivated to buy in this way, it does seem a reasonable explanation for why others do.

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3 hours ago, Duckie Dickins said:

I spent a good period of my SL existance buying new motorcycles that ranges from 4000 L$ and up and would pick a new model up as soon as it came out. I have had friends in my own social circle tell me that they saw the new motorcyle came out but because I had already gotten it so quickly that they didn't want to get the same one because they didn't want to be seen riding around the same sims on the same bike as someone else. People are odd this way, but it's partially why the demand is so high the first couple of days at these events, regardless of the fact that the same items will be available in the creator's main shop after the event. It's something new. It's something you can go out and get before your friends and lay your claim on being a unique snowflake amongst your immediate peers. It's school yard behavior of wanting to be part of the crowd that has the newest toy that everyone else is getting but maybe in a fashion where you might still be distinct from everyone else. I was a child of the 70s and it was important even then to be one of the kids with the new Incredible Hulk TV series metal lunchbox but not the same picture depicted on the side as my classmate Johnny has, because even at the age of 8 something inside of me said having the exact same lunch box was lame and I needed to be the same and yet a littlle different to still be a unique snowflake.

 

Soooo, people want to be unique so a whole bunch of them wrassle with each other to get into the same place? Interesting... (I'm not saying that what you're saying is incorrect, just the whole idea. One of my very first posts on this forum was to someone who said something that only needed to be paraphrased very slightly to say, "I like Apple computers and Harley Davidsons because I think differently and those are the things the people who think differently use.")

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15 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

@Nikolai Warden A quick sidetrack since you mentioned it. I have never come across the attitude that premium members think of themselves as an elite. I haven't seen it in the forum and I haven't seen it inworld. At least not that I've recognised as such. I do believe, though, that I've seen it the other way round (sort of) in the forum, where a basic member imagines that premium members consider themselves to be elite.

It sounds to me that the attitudes you've described don't exist in premium members but DO exist in basic members, even to the extent of that "hoi polloi" idea. That sounds like basic members, with an inferiority complex, putting down premium members because they imagine that the premium members think so highly of themselves.

Interesting thought, Phil. I've been on both sides, off and on, throughout the years, and I never even thought about it. I don't know that I've ever known anyone that harbored those thoughts, either. If they did, they never said anything. Honestly, it seems like a really petty thing to have resentments over, in my opinion. 

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12 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

Most creators start out the same -- we just love making stuff, so we do it. But when you reach the point where you quit your day job and depend on your store to support your family, it would be foolish not to pay attention to the bottom line, however you think best. (There is no one best way to run a SL business.) You really can't neatly divide most full time creators into those in it because they are artists and those who are in it for money, because most can't afford to spend that much time on a rather expensive hobby without significant compensation. 

It's interesting, this dance between being an artist and earning money. Recently I 'followed the money' by agreeing to create multiple underwater environments for 'the crazy mermaid lady' (she calls herself). At first it was primarily for the money, as I haven't felt too inspired regarding underwater scenes and did not feel motivated to explore this aspect of nature. The more I got into it however, my creativity exploded and a whole new area of art was opened up for me...I was seeing things in nature I never saw before, and it became about 'art' and not 'money'.

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1 hour ago, Aislin Ceawlin said:

Interesting thought, Phil. I've been on both sides, off and on, throughout the years, and I never even thought about it. I don't know that I've ever known anyone that harbored those thoughts, either. If they did, they never said anything. Honestly, it seems like a really petty thing to have resentments over, in my opinion. 

Its like the people who would come into the previous version of this forum, with its silly meaningless ranks, and accuse regular posters of being stuck up due to their rank. Or post count. 

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1 minute ago, Pamela Galli said:

Its like the people who would come into the previous version of this forum, with its silly meaningless ranks, and accuse regular posters of being stuck up due to their rank. Or post count. 

Exactly! Who cares? It's a persons attitude, not their numbers or "rank"

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12 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

Most creators start out the same -- we just love making stuff, so we do it.

Probably most do. I came to a different way. I was renting out furnished skyboxes at the time and, rather than keep on buying furniture, I started to make my own. It wasn't for the love it creating. It was to save money :D

 

12 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

You really can't neatly divide most full time creators into those in it because they are artists and those who are in it for money, because most can't afford to spend that much time on a rather expensive hobby without significant compensation. 

I haven't try to divide "most" creators into those categories. I've only been taking about those who are the top - the biggies - the ones who make loads of money from it. I don't know them because I don't shop. Xcite is probably one. SexGen would have been one before he knocked it on the head. I remember a female fashion place from way back that would have been one, but I can't remember the name, but I'm sure there are some fashion biggies around, and I think it's probable that at least a some of the mesh avatar makers are in the same 'biggie' category.

Of course there must be plenty of medium-sized businesses around too, many or most of which are focussed on the bottom line. Most SL business though, are small and probably don't focus on the money because the business hasn't grown to the level where it can reasonably be wondered whether or not it could be treated it as a livelihood - like you did, Pam.

Anyway, I've said enough about it in this thread. My views are known enough by now, and I still hold them, so there's no point in me continually rehashing them with different words whenever someone questions them :)

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7 minutes ago, Pamela Galli said:

Its like the people who would come into the previous version of this forum, with its silly meaningless ranks, and accuse regular posters of being stuck up due to their rank. Or post count. 

We still have those ranks, y'know ;)

They may never change now because this forum may not have the system in place to do it, so those who have Advisor and Helper ranks will probably keep them, at least until the next forum software comes along. I'm just sorry that I didn't make it to the super-hero rank before the forum changed :(

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3 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I haven't try to divide "most" creators into those categories

No, you haven't. I should have said "one" not "you". But my point: even the big stores, most of whom Have teams producing content, as well as one-person businesses, can and most often do still focus on both artistry and income.

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