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/me pops the popcorn  While there will be people who go to the extreme for the drama of virtual goods,  I believe most won't notice.   Premium members who pay a monthly fee to SL keep t

You forgot, "This parking lot is full except for these spaces reserved for handicapped people." Aren't you going to complain about that?

I'm just going to jump in here and say that the important thing is that, clearly, no one heard me say BREEDABLE SHOES, they EXISTED! Pffft.

7 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

Like Phil, I don't understand why anyone would care about getting something later rather than earlier. Must be more to it than we are aware.

It's not a case of caring when you get it, it's IF you get it, if you wait till the fair's nearly over to get in you can still get the fair only items... if you can't get in at all even on the last day because you are not "elite" enough to pass the apartheid check, you get nothing.
 

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1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

It's not a case of caring when you get it, it's IF you get it, if you wait till the fair's nearly over to get in you can still get the fair only items... if you can't get in at all even on the last day because you are not "elite" enough to pass the apartheid check, you get nothing.
 

So these things for sale are not in fact made available after the event? 

When I make something, I plan to sell it for years. Otherwise I can't recoup the time I put in making it.

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Definitely. If something that's for sale only at an event is good enough, then it will be for sale after the event. If it's not for sale after the event, then it isn't good enough to sell alongside other items. People don't put time and effort into creating something good, only to shelve it after a few sales.

As for unique colours, well... purleeeeze. Who in their right mind would be interrested in that? But again, if the colour is so desirable, then it won't be shelved after the event and, if it is shelved, it isn't very good.

To sum up my opinion, any creator who is genuinely only going to sell an item at an event, and after that it's not for sale anywhere, is taking people for a ride. S/he is taking advantage of people's gullibility, having them think that they are buying something worthwhile, when they are not. It's common sense 101.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

 It's common sense 101.

 

And when exactly, did Fashion become a matter of common sense, in SL or RL? You are all missing the point here, expecting that if you don't understand something, then it's not important and that trying to wipe it out with jerkwad legislation is ok. THe people who you don't understand don't understand YOU Madlanders, and your obsessions with owning worthless wasteland in the Madlands, they can't understand why a patch of wilderness on Sansara should cost twice as much when its next to a road that nobody ever uses except griefers. They think you are all insane, and they may have a point, when you assume some premium homebody who pays 72 clams a year and buys naff all goes nowhere, is financially more important than some shop-a-holic free-2-play dropping 40 a week, most of which ends up as somebody's tier payments to LL..
 

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@Phil Deakins There you go again, making rational arguments about SL commerce where there are rarely any rational actors involved. "Who in their right mind" indeed!

But for these "event-exclusive versions", RL has some analogs. Many social and health causes are commemorated by superficially unique versions of stuff, and people buy them to show solidarity with the struggle, whatever it may be. Another example: good luck convincing buyers of limited-edition athletic shoes that they aren't special enough to justify spending frankly ridiculous sums on them -- and you better believe that the manufacturers are making bank on every dopey transaction.

Frankly, it would be weird if SL merchants did not do likewise -- especially when the cost of creating a limited-time variant is so very trivial in SL compared to RL.

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10 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

 

And when exactly, did Fashion become a matter of common sense, in SL or RL? You are all missing the point here, expecting that if you don't understand something, then it's not important and that trying to wipe it out with jerkwad legislation is ok. THe people who you don't understand don't understand YOU Madlanders, and your obsessions with owning worthless wasteland in the Madlands, they can't understand why a patch of wilderness on Sansara should cost twice as much when its next to a road that nobody ever uses except griefers. They think you are all insane, and they may have a point, when you assume some premium homebody who pays 72 clams a year and buys naff all goes nowhere, is financially more important than some shop-a-holic free-2-play dropping 40 a week, most of which ends up as somebody's tier payments to LL..
 

So, premium members don't buy anything, but shopping events will be constantly full because there will be eeeebil squatting premium members in them all the time? That certainly is an uncommon sort of sense, at that...

By the way, I've always been able to pick up anything I've wanted at the Hair Fair because you can reach the vendors from the surrounding cam-shopping regions. Maybe that's why the organizers decide to hold it on the Mainland...

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7 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

By the way, I've always been able to pick up anything I've wanted at the Hair Fair because you can reach the vendors from the surrounding cam-shopping regions. Maybe that's why the organizers decide to hold it on the Mainland...

I shop the hair fair, naked bald and invisible, from half a kilometer away, with avatar rendering turned off, near the end of the run.

Of course, this year thanks to Apartheid... The Cam sims will be packed to capacity with filthy free to play peasants excluded from the fair by Apartheid... 

Oh Joy!
 

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33 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

@Phil Deakins There you go again, making rational arguments about SL commerce where there are rarely any rational actors involved. "Who in their right mind" indeed!

hehe :)

But for these "event-exclusive versions", RL has some analogs. Many social and health causes are commemorated by superficially unique versions of stuff, and people buy them to show solidarity with the struggle, whatever it may be. Another example: good luck convincing buyers of limited-edition athletic shoes that they aren't special enough to justify spending frankly ridiculous sums on them -- and you better believe that the manufacturers are making bank on every dopey transaction.

Frankly, it would be weird if SL merchants did not do likewise -- especially when the cost of creating a limited-time variant is so very trivial in SL compared to RL.

There's a big difference though. People buy those RL things you mentioned, not only to show solidarity with the cause, but also to help the cause financially, whereas merchants selling stuff at the events mentioned here are doing it solely for profit, and the people buying at them are buying solely because they want the item(s). That being the case, I could understand it if merchants did 'event only' stuff if they sold the stuff for a huge amount, tapping into something in the customer's psyche that is willing to pay a huge amount for a rare(?) edition of the item.

It still comes down to common sense 101 :)

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6 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

So these things for sale are not in fact made available after the event?

When I make something, I plan to sell it for years. Otherwise I can't recoup the time I put in making it.

Yes, but...

YOU sell buildings and furniture at upto 4k a pop, which is a very different market and marketing strategy to say a hair store that sells a different event hair at every monthly event they take part in, for a couple of hundred.

I used to shop at one hair store, and they'd release one new hair a month, and stick an old one in the mania board, so every month you'd go to the store to see if you wanted to slap the mania board, and while there check out and buy the new release maybe.

Now... Now they JUST do events, new hair at every event, not available elsewhere, and frankly *I* can't be bothered trekking to Extortion8 and lag staggering past 50 stalls trying to find the stall for that store to look at the hair to see if I like it never mind want to buy it.

But, that's their strategy now, and they still have customers willing to do that, while I shop, fickle as most shoppers, elsewhere.

Exclusive Deluxe Furniture and multi thousand price tags probably uses *slightly* different sales ploy to mass market hair at a couple of hundred, yes?
 

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@Phil Deakins Well, I gave the RL athletic shoe example as one where profit is clearly the sole motive, and in contrast mentioned RL charitable causes as analogs to big RFL events in Second Life, where creators donate to ACS all proceeds from event-unique items (and others), so sure: it's not just "showing solidarity" but also putting money where the mouth is, in SL as in RL.

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1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

There's a big difference though. People buy those RL things you mentioned, not only to show solidarity with the cause, but also to help the cause financially, whereas merchants selling stuff at the events mentioned here are doing it solely for profit, and the people buying at them are buying solely because they want the item(s). That being the case, I could understand it if merchants did 'event only' stuff if they sold the stuff for a huge amount, tapping into something in the customer's psyche that is willing to pay a huge amount for a rare(?) edition of the item.

It still comes down to common sense 101 :)

It's actually not uncommon to see events where every vendor has an item thats made to raise money for charity, Hair Fair for example, had a load of items whose sales contributed to a charity that provides wigs for bald kids on chemotherapy, so they don't get bullied as much by 'normal' kids.

Every one of your "common sense" posts seems to suggest that you have absolutely NO clue about the events or what goes on at them. 

I know a lot of Madlanders regularly complain that people play "digital barbie" and "waste money" on clothes, hair, skin, etc., instead of "wisely investing" their cash in the digital equivalent of overpriced swampland next to the toxic waste reprocessing plant, but, hey deal with it.

Accept that you do not and probably never will understand and leave it at that.

It's "common sense"!
 

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52 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

It's actually not uncommon to see events where every vendor has an item thats made to raise money for charity, Hair Fair for example, had a load of items whose sales contributed to a charity that provides wigs for bald kids on chemotherapy, so they don't get bullied as much by 'normal' kids.

Every one of your "common sense" posts seems to suggest that you have absolutely NO clue about the events or what goes on at them. 

You're right about that. I'm only going by what's been written in this thread. From what's been written in this thread, the idea of really wanting to get into a busy event has nothing whatsoever to do with a huge desire to donate to a charity. So you can abandon that argument.

 

52 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

I know a lot of Madlanders regularly complain that people play "digital barbie" and "waste money" on clothes, hair, skin, etc., instead of "wisely investing" their cash in the digital equivalent of overpriced swampland next to the toxic waste reprocessing plant, but, hey deal with it.

Accept that you do not and probably never will understand and leave it at that.

Why would I accept it or reject it? I'm not one who complains about those things. You're the one who's complaining - not about those particular things, but you're complaining just the same.

 

52 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

It's "common sense"!

How would you know? That's something that I haven't noticed you having any familiarity with.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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26 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

@Phil Deakins Well, I gave the RL athletic shoe example as one where profit is clearly the sole motive, and in contrast mentioned RL charitable causes as analogs to big RFL events in Second Life, where creators donate to ACS all proceeds from event-unique items (and others), so sure: it's not just "showing solidarity" but also putting money where the mouth is, in SL as in RL.

Yes, I went along with the athletic shoe example in my previous post, by saying I could understand it if SL creators sold limited editions for huge prices. But that hasn't come up in the thread. Also, nobody suggested that they really need to get into the big events quickly so that they can donate to charity before it's too late. The only thing that was mentioned was buying stuff for their own personal benefit as soon as possible.

Edited by Phil Deakins
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10 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

 ... Also, nobody suggested that they really need to get into the big events quickly so that they can donate to charity before it's too late. The only thing that was mentioned was buying stuff for their own personal benefit as soon as possible.

Right, but that's the case in RL charitable analogs, too. I mean, people are aware that buying a red phone donates money to charity, but they actually buy the phone cuz they want to have (and be seen having) a red phone. That's the whole point of the exercise, else the phone manufacturers wouldn't make the model. 

Admittedly, I'm losing track of the whole argument here. My only point was that there are valid RL analogs to these particular SL commercial practices -- even though it hardly matters because SL commerce is mostly cuckoo anyway. Practices exist in SL that currently use these big, super-crowded events, for whatever purpose. Those practices might change as a result of this new Premium benefit, or not, and even if they change it may be for "better" or "worse" but either way it may be interesting.

Again, I don't particularly care one way or another about inconveniencing non-Premium members -- it's just a game, ya pays yer money, etc. (and I sure as hell don't think it's Apartheid, the Holocaust, 9/11, or any other RL event more tragic than a hangnail). 

Edited by Qie Niangao
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39 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

It's actually not uncommon to see events where every vendor has an item thats made to raise money for charity, Hair Fair for example, had a load of items whose sales contributed to a charity that provides wigs for bald kids on chemotherapy, so they don't get bullied as much by 'normal' kids.

Every one of your "common sense" posts seems to suggest that you have absolutely NO clue about the events or what goes on at them. 

I know a lot of Madlanders regularly complain that people play "digital barbie" and "waste money" on clothes, hair, skin, etc., instead of "wisely investing" their cash in the digital equivalent of overpriced swampland next to the toxic waste reprocessing plant, but, hey deal with it.

Accept that you do not and probably never will understand and leave it at that.

It's "common sense"!
 

Let's look at the Hair Fair then.

The total number of avatars in the region will increase as the limit has increased.

You haven't shown any reason to believe a Premium member at or going to one of these events behaves any differently than a non-Premium member at or going to one of these events. Therefore, we have to assume that the average time spent, amount spent, etc. per visitor will stay the same. With the amount of avatars increasing, the amount of money raised will increase.

The argument you and Lex are making is that avatar churn will leave these regions constantly full for non-Premium members. However, the churn will still occur, meaning that sales and donations will still occur, and the higher limit will mean the total amount sold/donated will be higher. The churn will be Premium members only but there will be nothing to say that they will spend any differently than non-Premium members.

Then you argue that demand will drop precipitously because non-Premium members decide they never can get in. However, if demand will drop then the regions will no longer constantly be full and the non-Premium members can get in and the "problem" vanishes.

This is ignoring the possibility that the average Premium member who is already investing RL money in Second Life may spend more than the average non-Premium member, some of whom may only be at the Hair Fair to harvest freebies.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
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4 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Definitely. If something that's for sale only at an event is good enough, then it will be for sale after the event. If it's not for sale after the event, then it isn't good enough to sell alongside other items. People don't put time and effort into creating something good, only to shelve it after a few sales.

There was a men's shoe store a couple of years back (still in business now) which put out fairly regular new releases. Their signature style was very unusual (and asthetically right up my alley, as it were; hard to find something like that in SL at the time). Every new release was limited to just 100 copies, and the sales always began at a convenient time for US east coast residents (ie: when Europe was mostly fast asleep). The shoes were extremely well-made (I did manage to snag the odd pair here and there, at other events which weren't 100-limited) and they usually sold out within about 5 minutes.

I spent a long time alternately bitching about this business practice (mainly because I wanted those shoes, damn it!) and scratching my head about it (because why the hell would you only want 100 sales of an obviously-popular and hard-to-come-by item which could easily have sold thousands?) Eventually I just quit their group because I was so sick of logging on to notices about something that had already sold out.

They're now making mostly dime-a-dozen sneakers and no longer limiting sales. Can't think why...

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3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

This is ignoring the possibility that the average Premium member who is already investing RL money in Second Life may spend more than the average non-Premium member, some of whom may only be at the Hair Fair to harvest freebies.

This is one of those potentially interesting -- and probably unintended -- consequences: Which events will be more successful going forward and which less. I think it may develop that that this benefits a "home and garden show" (these still happen, right?) because Premium members may be disproportionately more likely to spend L$s on stuff to rez on land, compared to more non-Premiums who may spend more on avatar-centric content such as hair, shoes, etc.

That's all just a theory, but coincidentally this "rezzing on land" thing also benefits from another recent change, the Land Impact boost. I mean, it benefits everybody who rezzes stuff, and that population certainly includes many, many non-Premiums, but one supposes the overwhelming majority of Premium members have land somewhere needing rezzed content.

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5 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

Definitely. If something that's for sale only at an event is good enough, then it will be for sale after the event. If it's not for sale after the event, then it isn't good enough to sell alongside other items. People don't put time and effort into creating something good, only to shelve it after a few sales.

As for unique colours, well... purleeeeze. Who in their right mind would be interrested in that? But again, if the colour is so desirable, then it won't be shelved after the event and, if it is shelved, it isn't very good.

To sum up my opinion, any creator who is genuinely only going to sell an item at an event, and after that it's not for sale anywhere, is taking people for a ride. S/he is taking advantage of people's gullibility, having them think that they are buying something worthwhile, when they are not. It's common sense 101.

I've never attended (and never will) one of these promotions, but they do work. I'm sure you've seen limited edition goods in RL. Scarcity can stimulate demand, and that's the thing that drives these promotions. Limited edition colors generally do not sell as well as the mainstream colors, and need scarcity to drive demand. Watch a late night infomercial, you won't go a minute without seeing artificial scarcity. "Call now, while supplies last!" "Operators are standing by, call within the next ten minutes to take advantage of this once-in-a-lifetime offer." Coke and Pepsi create artificial scarcity by printing limited edition cans; the product remains unchanged.

And, even if people don't buy the "scarce" thing, the promotion increases awareness of the product/brand. Scarcity is just another characteristic of a thing, like color or taste, that can be used to make something desirable. And the inability to obtain a limited edition thing actually increases demand for the unlimited versions. People don't want to go home empty handed once their appetite is whetted, so they'll buy another color.

We're so easily manipulated you can't be surprised that we manipulate each other, Phil!

;-).

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

Now... Now they JUST do events, new hair at every event, not available elsewhere, and frankly *I* can't be bothered trekking to Extortion8 and lag staggering past 50 stalls trying to find the stall for that store to look at the hair to see if I like it never mind want to buy it.
 

This is why I never visit any event these days without checking the Seraphim blog first. If - on the offchance - they've not photographed every item at the event (it can take them time to get everything done for a very large fair, for example) then I just wait until the closing days. I simply cannot be arsed to lag-stagger (good phrase that; I'm pinching it!) around trying to find something that I'm not even sure I'll want.

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3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

We're so easily manipulated you can't be surprised that we manipulate each other, Phil!

I was a good boy until I learned the ways of manipulation from you, Maddy :(

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