What am I missing about appliers?

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

I am not a noob, but I can't figure out appliers for mesh bodies.  I thought the idea of an applier was that it was sort of painted on your skin - not something that lays over the top like mesh clothes.  I have bought several panties and bras that are appliers.  I wear a pair of pants and no skin is showing through - a perfect fit!  Yay!  I use the applier to put some underwear underneath and the underwear show through the pants.  If my skin doesn't show, why do painted on underwear show through?  I assume the appliers for mesh bodies are not actually painted on like I thought they were, but add dimension that pokes through clothes.  What am I missing?  Can I find the painted on style for mesh bodies somewhere?

This is only an issue because I spend a lot of time in G land and sometimes my clothes don't rez properly.  I want the modesty coverage.

If it matters, I use the Lara body.

[Talligurl]

I dont know, i only use appliers for tattoos and have never had a tattoo show through. But as to the whole being nude til you rez thing, I have been wondering what happens if you alpha out the parts you don't want showing? Does the alpha work before it is all rezzed?

[Teagan Tobias]

I'm still in the demo stage of getting a mesh body, now you've given me another thing to look at, thanks a lot, lol.

I too thought the appliers are painted on but it sounds like there is a lot more going on there. I hope you get a good answer, I'll be watching.

Thanks for asking your question, I never would have expected that.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

@Talligurl I have never had a tattoo show through either.  I use the tattoo layer for freckles.  Are these layers painted on the skin or or are they separate and just very close to the skin?  Maybe the clothing layer I am using for lingerie sticks out farther than the tattoo layer?  On the system body everything was painted on and whatever you put on last was on top.  Have you ever tried to put a tattoo on the clothing layer?  I'll have to try it out next time I'm inworld - put my freckles on the clothing layer and see if they show over some tight fitting mesh clothes.

@Teagan Tobias I'm nearly 7 years in and still have stuff to learn.  That is one of the things I like about SL - things change and I get to learn a new skill.

 

ETA Not nearly 7 years, but 7 years in.  My Rez Day was yesterday!

Edited April 15, 2017 by Cinnamon Mistwood

[Chase01]

Appliers function differently depending on the layer it is applied too. In this case you should use it on the underwear or tattoo layer. Often times this may be necessary when layering.

The different layers each have their own characteristics. The clothing layer is made as a loose layer. The area between the breast and bum is lifted, for a more realistic look. The underwear layer is almost skin-tight, but without the detailed private bits. The tattoo layer is skin-tight. The tattoo layer can therefore also be used for body details (nipples, moles etc). The socks and gloves connect seamlessly to the tattoo and the underwear layers.

Hope that helps

 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

1 minute ago, Chase01 said:

Appliers function differently depending on the layer it is applied too. In this case you should use it on the underwear or tattoo layer. Often times this may be necessary when layering.

The different layers each have their own characteristics. The clothing layer is made as a loose layer. The area between the breast and bum is lifted, for a more realistic look. The underwear layer is almost skin-tight, but without the detailed private bits. The tattoo layer is skin-tight. The tattoo layer can therefore also be used for body details (nipples, moles etc). The socks and gloves connect seamlessly to the tattoo and the underwear layers.

Hope that helps

 

Oooooooooh - so they ARE separate and just close to the skin.  I will try some different layers and see if underwear still shows through.  I want to keep my freckles.

 

[Rhonda Huntress]

A mesh body is actually several layers right on top of each other.  The skin layer is the lowest.  Depending on the body there may be a tattoo layer, an underwear layer and a clothing layer.  You can put a texture on any one of those layers.  So you could wear a bra on the tattoo layer or whatever.  Think of the whole body like matryoshka dolls.  If fact if you can picture them as a series of spheres it makes the next part easy to grasp and in fact that is basically what is happening with mesh bodies.

Appliers are little tools that use a script to paint a texture on a prim's face.  Well, a mesh face but going with the nested sphere analogy they would be a prims.  You click the applier, the scripts asks which layer you want the texture to go on. 

Also, don't forget the old OpenGL bug with layered alphas.  It is alive and kicking with mesh.  If possible, set your lower level appliers to mask mode. 

So what you are seeing could be panties put on higher layers than pants.  It could also be an alpha glitch where both pants and panties have an alpha channel so you get random weirdness.

 

Does all that make any sense?

[Chase01]

Yusss

btw, I have seen some doing rigged based moles and or freckles. I'd have to look up the vendor but they are out there should you ever need to utilize that layer again.

[Rhonda Huntress]

10 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

My Rez Day was yesterday!

Happy birthday!

 

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

@Rhonda Huntress I haven't even gotten to my question about what the masking option is.  The other day I was trying on shirts and hairs and couldn't get the right combination of alphas and masking.  I was just getting more and more frustrated as my long hair had a clear halo around it and there were my nipples peaking out right through the shirt no matter what I did.  I cursed the stupid shirt, I cursed the stupid hair, I cursed my ignorance of how it all worked.  Then I chose a short hair and went on with life.

 

[Rhonda Huntress]

1 minute ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

I haven't even gotten to my question about what the masking option is.

Ignoring the math and all ....

Alpha layers in SL textures can be thought of as "how transparent is this?"  If everything worked properly, something that was 50% transparent would mix it's colors with the colors under it and voila, see through fabric.  But it doesn't work right and never has.

Mask mode is a like a short cut through all that. The alpha channel in mask mode says "draw this pixel and don't draw that one."  It's an on and off toggle, not a percentage of transparency.  If you have a shirt applier as the top layer, toggle it to mask mode and your hair will not cut it away.  Since the shirt is no longer really an alpha, there is nothing to glitch with the hair's alpha.

Now the problem with just making everything mask ... a good tattoo has a bit of transparency to it so it looks like it is part of the skin and not just painted on top.  Lacy things look hard and rigid when applied as a mask.  More often lace will will have parts become solid while other parts disappear as the rendering engine assigns full on / full off to different percentages of transparency that texture actually contains.

 

[Chase01]

@Cinnamon Mistwood aww Happy Rez day!

[Rhonda Huntress]

1 minute ago, Chase01 said:

@Cinnamon Mistwood aww Happy Rez day!

This calls for a party.

Talli's buying!

[Chase01]

2 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

Ignoring the math and all ....

Alpha layers in SL textures can be thought of as "how transparent is this?"  If everything worked properly, something that was 50% transparent would mix it's colors with the colors under it and voila, see through fabric.  But it doesn't work right and never has.

Mask mode is a like a short cut through all that. The alpha channel in mask mode says "draw this pixel and don't draw that one."  It's an on and off toggle, not a percentage of transparency.  If you have a shirt applier as the top layer, toggle it to mask mode and your hair will not cut it away.  Since the shirt is no longer really an alpha, there is nothing to glitch with the hair's alpha.

Now the problem with just making everything mask ... a good tattoo has a bit of transparency to it so it looks like it is part of the skin and not just painted on top.  Lacy things look hard and rigid when applied as a mask.  More often lace will will have parts become solid while other parts disappear as the rendering engine assigns full on / full off to different percentages of transparency that texture actually contains.

 

Like Rhonda pointed out. The alpha masking mode will only work well when textures have a sharp, defined alpha. So experiment and see if it still appears to your liking.

[Madelaine McMasters]

33 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

My Rez Day was yesterday!

I'm sorry I missed it...

Happy Belated Rezday, Cinn!!!

Edited April 15, 2017 by Madelaine McMasters

[Talligurl]

3 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

Talli's buying!

Why not, I am always buying.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

Whew!  Thank you all for the tutorial.  I have new respect for creators of clothes and mesh bodies.  I popped inworld and tried the underwear on the underwear layer, I probably should have done that to begin with, much less showed through on several of the options I had and one pair didn't show through at all.

@Rhonda Huntress I think I understand it all except maybe the lace.  I would have to watch someone creating a lace to see how they make the texture so part is opaque and part is 100% transparent.

@Chase01 I have a bit more experimenting to do, thanks!  I will figure it out before I turn my attention to Bento.

@Madelaine McMasters Thanks!  I missed it, too.

@Talligurl I like dark beer

[Talligurl]

54 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

@Talligurl I like dark beer

Of course, dark is always better.

[Marianne Little]

4 hours ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Oooooooooh - so they ARE separate and just close to the skin.  I will try some different layers and see if underwear still shows through.  I want to keep my freckles.

 

Here we have my  - probably - only issue with mesh bodies.* Alpha channels. Freckles and tattoos both have alpha channels, so they compeate against each other, rendering either the tattoo to disappear in parts, or the whole freckles layer to disappear. Lucky enough, I don't have problems with the freckles in mask mode. I know I sound like a whiny kid, but I would really like for designers of skin to sell freckled versions. It is a step back to the old days when creators had to include several different skin options. After tattoo layers became used on system bodies, they often sold one skin with add-on freckles, cleavage and pubic hair, all on tattoo layers, so the customer could mix.

So me using a freckled persona now, two actually, one male and this one, I start to get issues with too many alpha channels. Let us say I have my male alt on, who wear a freckles layer and a tattoo with sleve and a chest part that is visible under buttoned down shirts. I want his freckles to show, naturally. I want his tattoo to show too. I am picky like that. But there I have two layers in use, I put on the shirt and the male mesh creators are more sloppy with the fit. They relay on male cusomers using the alpha HUD. I alpha out many more parts of the body as a male. So I have that shirt on, and I must mask out 2/3 of the arms. But the tattoo layer and the freckles layer is NOT masked out. So where the skin was showing through the shirt, the tattoo is still visible. The freckles are not noticeable on ordinary colors, but can be seen when zooming in closely.

Women have more well fitting clothes that lie tight over the layers. It is because we shop a lot, and it is a lot to offer. The fit of designer X clothes don't the job? Buy from designer Y. So designers have to sell to more and more picky female customers. A male avatar buy from designer X and is not happy with the fit. He has no designer Y that sell clothing in the same good texturing. So the male can either go shirtless or take off the tattoo. And don't you forget body hair, that has to use the clothing layer. Sorry Sir, it is no chest hair for you unless the merciful skin designer sell them.

So selling a freckled body skin when the body appliers is standing next to your head skin with permanent freckles painted on, is not a bad idea. It does not solve all the trouble with alpha channels, but it reduces them. At least the tattoo can be used on tattoo layers.

What I could wish for, is a baking of layers, or flattening. Like we do in Photoshop. So it was possible to add freckles, tattoos and maybe even a roleplay thing as a scar. Then press the button and have a pop-up window asking, "Are you sure you want to merge layers?" then press "Yes" and you have your naked body ready for clothes. I would happily accept that when I want to change tattoos, I would have to start on a new body. Heck, it is updates so often, I start on new body parts anyway.

 

* Might be I have other issues too, can't remember them now.

[Marianne Little]

5 hours ago, Talligurl said:

I dont know, i only use appliers for tattoos and have never had a tattoo show through. But as to the whole being nude til you rez thing, I have been wondering what happens if you alpha out the parts you don't want showing? Does the alpha work before it is all rezzed?

In my opinion, yes. The parts stay invisible. Let us say I must use alpha on the nipples, I log in and have a chest with two holes where the nipples should be, until my parts snap together and the top or shirt cover the holes. Same for legs and other body parts with partial alpha cuts.

I see others like that too, so I assume that they see me the same way, with the parts invisible.

For those who will not rez in with bits showing, to alpha out the groin might me a solution, even if the clothes fit so well that you don't have to. At least the bodies I am using, have a alpha cut only for nipples too.

[Skell Dagger]

6 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

In my opinion, yes. The parts stay invisible. Let us say I must use alpha on the nipples, I log in and have a chest with two holes where the nipples should be, until my parts snap together and the top or shirt cover the holes. Same for legs and other body parts with partial alpha cuts.

I see others like that too, so I assume that they see me the same way, with the parts invisible.

I can verify that yes, everyone else sees the body with the alpha cuts. I live in the UK, and thus have a higher ping than US residents (can't wait for the CDN update, so that content is served to me from the UK; currently, busy areas can see me with a ping of up to 450ms) and I'm also on an ADSL connection (I get about 10Mb speeds usually). Busy areas for me are a case of rez in, fly up, and wait. Sometimes it can take ten minutes for an area to rez for me, especially if a lot of complex mesh has been used for the build. While I'm waiting I'm always surrounded by naked people. Sometimes their clothing is floating sideways across their body for several minutes until it snaps into place, but I always see the alpha cuts on those naked bodies.

Taking into account what you said in your previous post about the better fit of ladies' clothing versus that of us gents, this means I usually see a lot of wholly-nude women around me (because they don't need to use the alpha cuts) while the men are usually partially-invisible (because they do need to use the alpha cuts). It's like going back to the old bakefail days when one had the dilemma of "Do I tell that nude female avatar that she needs to rebake or will she think I'm perving on her?" 

I don't personally find it titillating (bent as a nine-bob note, for those that don't know me) but I'm surprised there aren't more horny panting men hanging around at landing points when busy events open  Ladies, if you're shy you might want to use those nipple alpha cuts, or at least wear applier pasties and/or panties!

Edited April 15, 2017 by Skell Dagger
Typo

[Rhonda Huntress]

3 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

I'm surprised there aren't more horny panting men hanging around at landing points when busy events open 

Spawn point camping.  Just like in pvp shooters.