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Sansar Vs Second Life - Discussion

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

Regarding educational institutions and corporations, I agree that suddenly upping the price from half to full was not a good move, but I think more of the issue with many of them leaving was that they wanted more control over their projects than the current limitations of SL allow.

I'm not sure about corporations but Second Life has never been big in education. There has never been more than about 300 educational institutions in SL and that is a drop in the ocean.

Edited by ChinRey

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1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

There has never been more than about 300 educational institutions in SL and that is a drop in the ocean.

Second Life is used by a lot of people with a desire to educate, be it a more formal (or accredited) institution or the less mainstream ones (thinking of an author with a sim I participated in who wrote a book about a system of growth, and he has exercises/meetings for those participating in his growth system on his land). Likewise there are lots of Buddhists with sims or parcels for teaching and meditation. Projects that educate on various health issues...the list goes on and on.

Edited by Luna Bliss

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13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Second Life is used by a lot of people with a desire to educate

Yes, there are lots of that. But  more "informal" teaching outside accredited institutions was never covered by the special low tier offer anyway.

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4 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Yes, there are lots of that. But  more "informal" teaching outside accredited institutions was never covered by the special low tier offer anyway.

That's true...but why are you telling me that?

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15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

That's true...but why are you telling me that?

To clarify since the old educational tier scheme was mentioned earlier in the discussion.

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2 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think the reason for SL's decline is that land is too expensive for many people, and it is too difficult to build and establish a presence in general. Both of these issues are being addressed in Sansar. Land is very cheap there and it's much easier to build a presence (or will be in the case of specific components that are not developed yet).

I can't see how Sansar can ever succeed in education.

When it comes to formal education, Unity is free for accredited educational institutions and already has far more to offer there than Sansar is ever likely to have.

As for non-institutional education, well, it's hard to teach if you don't have any students and they will be difficult to find in Sansar.

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Needs camera controls. Needs inworld creation tools (that are decent and capable of meshing/sculpting). Get rid of the elitist 15 dollars a month creators fee. Everyone should start out with some free land that they can attach to each others lands if desired. Should take a 50% cut on merchant profits and not just 15%. That's all I can think of this morning before I get my morning cup of java.

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In-world creation tools aren't happening for years at least. They do expect to allow collaborative work on the off-line side, but say that licensing and ownership considerations make it complex. Everyone gets 3 free experiences, so what's the problem? Experiences are worlds -- they can't be joined. (Remember, Sansar is *not* like SL.)

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Luna... I completely disagree.  I certainly don't agree with this notion in real life either.  But, I'll give two examples :  


1)  I pay $125. a year for a real life server that could handle 4 sims in Second Life.  So land was expensive, by choice.  If it's cheaper now in Sansar, it's by choice... so, the cause of high land prices, is synthetic.  No idea what you mean by 'presence'.  Do you mean creators work to give us 'free stuff' so we can sit back and be lazy?... sounds socialist. 

2)  Customer service makes the world go round.  Companies in the real world who go to completely automated customer service, are all on the same path... pathetic.  Right now if you have an issue with AT&T, Twitter, Yahoo, Century Link, Bank of America, Chase Manhattan, Key Bank, or even write the White House... you're expected to 'suck vacuum', leave a message, press a button and go away, to just live with being ignored, etc.  

You as an individual may enjoy and be satisfied with this, this treatment may work just fine for you... but more generally it erodes confidence and poisons loyalty, and people... WILL go away if they can.  MANY of the avatars I've known over the years, got frustrated with the slow drip of access to the secrets of the Second Life universe, and simply lost interest.  

Example:  Did you know when you die or teleport in and out of a sim in Second Life, there's a discernible moment you'll exist in the null space-time of a sim's <0,0,0>?  I've spent a bit of time staying in that nexus and sending emails to avatars who pass through, none of them aware that their digital presence was in a stasis and yet... recognizable.  

Did you know if you pass 2 million meters straight up, you will pop out on the opposite side of SL because of the way SL Engineers handle negative co-ordinates.  I once flew over 2 million meters up and ended up in someone's hot tub!  

Did you know you can cruise around hundreds of meters below any sim, and hundreds of meters beyond the edge in the forbidden zones, and still be animated and functional?  I have submarines and space ships that travel long distances in the 'voids' and regularly travel between sims far under the 0 point.  

There are all kinds of absurdities about SL, things to discover that even the Lindens don't know about, places no one else ever! goes, in forms and fashions beyond other people's wildest dreams... but the Lindens don't care, and that apathy has infected others in this little world of ours... most people don't care, and without evangelism and excitement... SL is just WOW with nothing interesting to do... yup, not even a minor parody of Minecraft in most people's minds.  That's sad, very sad.  


So, yeah... sure. 

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Let me add one more concept which I believe makes my point about the Linden attitude that has crushed us :

I asked a couple of Linden engineers if they could allow me to 'buy' a sim with it's co-ordinates flipped so that the 4,000 meter Z was either a X or a Y?  They said, they've thought about that but decided that people couldn't stack sims together that way so they never bothered to tweak the code.  I told them, it's not that hard, and I would script in the artificial gravity and make use of it all, and PAY THEM.  But they didn't want to bother.  Anyone who flies in SL KNOWS! being able to fly 4,000 meters along a ground, whether real or scripted, would be GREAT!  A 256 meter wide, by 256 meter high sim that one could fly and fly and fly for 4,000 meters and dogfight in, travel and explore in... ??  Fabulous!  So yeah, the Lindens mostly... didn't, and still don't... care.

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I went to 1,999,900m then flew past 2,000,000 ... nothing. That seems like a strange limit anyway for Lindens who like powers of 2, so I went to 2,097,000 and flew through 2,097,152 (2^21) and kept going. If there was a problem it no longer exists.

Your description of moving below 0 meters between regions is too vague to guess at what might be happening. If you're talking about moving between regions that have no regions connecting them, it's unlikely since there are no simulators there to handle your avatar.

As for flipping a region on its side to get a 4000x256 region, I'm not at all surprised LL wasn't interested in modifying a lot of code in order to satisfy a single person. There are far too many interconnected pieces in SL for something like that to be done without extensive modifications and testing. If you want to fly 4096m, go to mainland and fly through 16 regions. I found a route that goes through 36 regions -- over 9,000 meters. If that doesn't float your boat, get sim-on-a-stick and modify it yourself. Or get your own experience in Sansar (it's free). An experience is 4096x4096, so you can walk 5,792 meters in a straight line for now and someday be able to fly that far.

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1 hour ago, DoctorEigen Flow said:

Let me add one more concept which I believe makes my point about the Linden attitude that has crushed us :

I asked a couple of Linden engineers if they could allow me to 'buy' a sim with it's co-ordinates flipped so that the 4,000 meter Z was either a X or a Y?  They said, they've thought about that but decided that people couldn't stack sims together that way so they never bothered to tweak the code.  I told them, it's not that hard, and I would script in the artificial gravity and make use of it all, and PAY THEM.  But they didn't want to bother.  Anyone who flies in SL KNOWS! being able to fly 4,000 meters along a ground, whether real or scripted, would be GREAT!  A 256 meter wide, by 256 meter high sim that one could fly and fly and fly for 4,000 meters and dogfight in, travel and explore in... ??  Fabulous!  So yeah, the Lindens mostly... didn't, and still don't... care.

Perhaps that encapsulates why you're so down on things. You can't have what you fancy, and it colours your thinking. I.e. if I can't have what I want, then SL is no good, and the people who run it don't care.

I'm not at all surprised that LL chose not to tailor a sim just for you.  In fact I'd be totally gobsmacked if they did it for you. What on earth makes you think that they would give you access to the sim code? It's not in the public domain, you know. Even if they did it, and you flipped the co-ordinates, you would need to do all sorts of ongoing tweaking for all sort of situations, and they would need to replace the code continually, and so on and so on. It's not something that a company is likely to want to get involved in. And that's not even taking into account other people who want special consideration. After all, if they've done it for one person, they should also do it for others. Right?

I'm sorry, but your criticism (quoted above) isn't valid. It's not even slightly valid.

Edited by Phil Deakins

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If you exceed 2,147,483,647 meters altitude you get stuck at -1 meters altitude and can no longer move and your character is no longer visible.

Once above tens of millions of meters altitude your attachments are violently jumping around trying to stay in place.

Someone once had a video on youtube showing the effects. It was interesting to say the least.

Edited by Lucia Nightfire

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3 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

If you exceed 2,147,483,647 meters altitude you get stuck at -1 meters altitude and can no longer move and your character is no longer visible.

Once above tens of millions of meters altitude your attachments are violently jumping around trying to stay in place.

Someone once had a video on youtube showing the effects. It was interesting to say the least.

:: 300,000 ::

 

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6 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

Once above tens of millions of meters altitude your attachments are violently jumping around trying to stay in place.

The simple answer is because this is the effect of rounding errors.

Slightly less simple answer is that rounding errors come from trying to store an infinite amount of fractions in a finite amount of space.

The nerdy answer is, X, Y and Z positions are all data type floats.  That is, a computer approximation of floating point numbers.  A computer stores these numbers as two separate parts in a single record.  The first part is the number as we would think of it if it were an integer.  The second part is a number that is used as a power of two that is then multiplied by the first.  To get fraction, the second number is subtracted by 1/2 of its maximum value.  With an 8 bit exponent, this would be -127.   
X * 2^(E-127) 
With real numbers (real as in the mathematical sense, not real world) there are always an infinite amount of numbers between any two real numbers.  However we really do not care if the millionths place is off a little most of the time.  The difference between 150.001002 meters and 150.001003 is too small to be seen not matter how high def you monitor is.  However, once we go very large, 15,000,100.2 and 15,000,100.3 is now 100 centimeters different.  Z locations can no longer be as finely detailed at very high altitudes.  When attachments try to adjust where it is on the body and also where it is in the world, those tiny rounding adjustments suddenly become significant between any number and the next larger number that can be stored as a float.

 

mathnerd.jpg.c0e08da1103f1b388e0dc8687676b755.jpg

 

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11 hours ago, DoctorEigen Flow said:

Luna... I completely disagree.  I certainly don't agree with this notion in real life either.  But, I'll give two examples :  


1)  I pay $125. a year for a real life server that could handle 4 sims in Second Life.  So land was expensive, by choice.  If it's cheaper now in Sansar, it's by choice... so, the cause of high land prices, is synthetic.  No idea what you mean by 'presence'.  Do you mean creators work to give us 'free stuff' so we can sit back and be lazy?... sounds socialist. 

I think you are not seeing the big picture regarding costs -- a virtual world has many more expenses than server costs. The fact that they have cheaper land in Sansar does not relate to any kind of "choice" (as you are defining the word) -- LL plans to recoup the money they need to run the world via charging content creators more.

Now if you want to debate if CEO's earn too much money...we could.
However, if LL CEO's are taking too much, that doesn't fit in with your accusations of LL being "Marxist" and "Socialist".

By creating a presence I mean the acquisition of content, scripts, land, and the means by which to complete a particular project one might be interested in. Sansar's intent is to make creating a presence easier. This is what most people want to do in virtual worlds. Most people are not like you and don't have the desire to fly beyond the boundaries of a sim or flip them to the side.
However, there is a place in Sansar for those who do want more complexity via creating mesh and scripts, or in creating complex Experiences others need or might enjoy.

I'm all for any world, virtual or real, to have a place for everyone. But if the cost is TOO great for the whole, then the individual usually can't have what they want. We live within a system, both in SL and RL.

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On 8/14/2017 at 10:56 AM, ChinRey said:

I can't see how Sansar can ever succeed in education.

When it comes to formal education, Unity is free for accredited educational institutions and already has far more to offer there than Sansar is ever likely to have.

As for non-institutional education, well, it's hard to teach if you don't have any students and they will be difficult to find in Sansar.

It's too soon to tell whether Sansar will excel in educational opportunities, but I can imagine some people using Sansar for that. In fact, some already exist in the ever-increasing list of Experiences there.

Unity is complicated for the average user, and the eventual simplicity of Sansar will be its strength. My daughter was able to register and create her own little 'world' and publish it within 15 minutes. Albeit, a simple one.
Imagine how many people might choose to add some VR to their website, or maybe have their own little world as a website in the future (A VR WordPress, as LL stated). Imagine going into an author's 'world' via a click on their website...seeing and hearing poetry, maybe having a type of book signing with those interested in their books or the topic at hand. Something fun to do there related to poetry or writing.
Or in another scenario, a teacher who just wants a simple place to meet with her students in order to present novel interaction with her subject, and so places a link to that 'world' on her website.

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Sansar is the product that SL was supposed to be for corporations and institutions. The complexity and freedom in SL is reduced to simplicity and walled gardens. Not a bad thing for business entities. It is like Unity but LL takes care of the entire networking back end, security and instancing. Remember all those Electric Sheep projects back in the day where real world companies made a presence in SL. 

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20 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Sansar is the product that SL was supposed to be for corporations and institutions.

Yes, that's how I'm seeing it too.

But, I don't think Sansar is only meant for institutions. Sansar does seem to eliminate what prevented that for institutions (not enough control, too difficult to use).
WordPress For VR -- that is the clearly stated goal. Think of who uses WordPress -- it's not only institutions.
I think Sansar's goal is to make VR ubiquitous. Now whether the internet is ready for that, or whether LL has the funds to do that right now...those questions remain.

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If I was Linden Labs, how would I push people from Second Life to Sansar?  Obviously nobody is looking forward to this.  Sansar is probably the worse thing that's happened to Virtual Worlds.  When you base your product off of VR, you tend to push people away.  I've noticed the focus is mainly about VR.  VR this, VR that, VR VR VR.  Nobody gives a hoot about VR.  Yes, it's interesting and new technology.  Not everyone can use VR like myself.  I can bang my head on a wall and not feel pain because I"m a strong man.  When I put on VR, I get weak in the knees and ready to faint.  Even giants can't handle VR yet you base your client off of VR?  

Not trying to say that SL is a porn hub.  Let's bring another client for example.  3dxchat!  I get it, it's made for the adults.  Look pass the dirty stuff and focus on the actual client itself.  How realistic they've made it.  I personally have never gone in there but watching videos of it blows my mind at the realism it provides WITHOUT VR.  What is so wrong with Second Life besides the constant loss of inventory and hectic Tuesdays.  Let's not forget about the massive lag that we continue to eat day in and day out.

I"ve been here when there were 400 people.  I've been a part of SL going on 14 years in September.  I've seen SL grow from nothing to something.  I do believe Sansar will grow in the next 8-10 years.  I doubt anyone will attempt Sansar at this moment.  When you focus on VR, you tend to push people away.  Focus on what works.  Second Life.  Use that and correct your wrongs.  

 

For Linden sake, we have fingers that move.  Who needs Sansar when you have FINGERS THAT MOVE. :P

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2 hours ago, Chaser Zaks said:

I just want a Linux build. D:

I tried running the Installer with WINE, and with PlayOnLinux - nothing worked.

It would be nice if there were a Linux build, but I'd also be content with a build running smoothly on WINE.

Edited by eighthdwarf Checchinato

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10 minutes ago, eighthdwarf Checchinato said:

I tried running the Installer with WINE, and with PlayOnLinux - nothing worked.

It would be nice if there were a Linux build, but I'd also be content with a build running smoothly on WINE.

Unfortunately sansar is built using directx12, which has a bunch of unsupported features on wine.

That is if you managed to install it, the installer uses some weird msie embedded engine.

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