Jump to content
GaryPreston

Is there anyone else who feels the same as I do about having a Second Life withour mesh?

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I wasn't actually talking about virtual worlds but virtual reality in general. "Game engines" like Unity and Unreal Engine and several others are so far ahead of SL when it comes to graphics quality it's not even funny. These engines are not only used for games either, they're direct competitors to SL in many fields.

I don't see it.  There is a major game (with a major price) being released tomorrow with character graphics and animations that do not even come close to SL standard avatars not to mention what you can do from there with resident created items.  And then there is scope of what can and cannot be done.  To paraphrase an old resident, if I can't dance on a table with a blue octopus attached to me hip -- all of which I made myself -- it is not an SL competitor.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

To paraphrase an old resident, if I can't dance on a table with a blue octopus attached to me hip -- all of which I made myself -- it is not an SL competitor.

Yes, exactly! What happened to that aspect of Second Life? It's still there of course but there seems to be less of it every day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/18/2017 at 5:41 AM, Klytyna said:

 

Ah wrong med post, the one about mesh layers... hmmm somehow i see that as not happening, yeah a plan to let system clothing work on mesh avis... some people in the clothing business would hate that, all that old clothing being worn instead oftheir new products. Besides... theres still the alpha sort problem, a lot of old layer clothing uses alpha blend, setting it to mask would basically break it, so NO, dont count on being able to wear system layer clothing on mesh bodies with no appliers, it's one of those 'hella kewl' ideas that people on committees come up with that almost certainly fail when or if it's tried in practice...

 

Appliers are here to stay for a while...
 

I will have to respectfully disagree with Klytyna on this one.

People will still want to buy mesh clothes for their custom avatars more than wear the old textures created for the LL default system avatar clothing system because mesh more often than not looks nicer than clothes painted onto the avatar's body.

Of course if someone finds an old system clothing item that looks good on their custom avatar more power to them.
It gives residents more options and in this case makes those more options are much easier to use just right mouse click in your inventory and wear it.
No need for appliers.

My feeling is most people would primarily make use of the skin and tattoo layers.  This would allow residents to use all those skins they bought throughout the years and allow all skin designers to create new skin that will work on any new custom mesh avatar that takes advantage of the new automatic texturing system.  It would also allow mesh clothing designer to use a simple alpha to hide the body parts of the custom avatar.  In turn custom mesh avatar designers would not need to cut their avatar mesh up into 40 or 50 pieces and use huds and scripts to try and let their customers manually hide body parts to simulate alphas. 

The new automatic texturing system that Medhue is talking about can be used for other things besides applying textures to custom mesh avatars .  It can be used to texture mesh clothes themselves.  Say a mesh clothing designer creates a dress and releases the UV layout for that dress.  A great texture artist can take that UV layout and make wonderful textures for that dress and sell them as an outfit.  All the customer has to do is buy the original mesh and then buy the outfit from the texture artist and simply right mouse click on both in their inventory and click wear.  Simple!

The mesh dress designer is happy because they will sell more dresses and the texture artist community will be happy because now texture artists that don't make mesh can now make all sorts of textures for all sorts of mesh.  It is a win win win.  Mesh designers who don't like or are not particularly good at making textures don't have to make them if they don't want to. Texture artists that don't want to make mesh or are not good at making mesh win.  The average resident wins because now the mesh clothing they buy are more versatile and if they want to they try making their own textures for the mesh clothes they buy they can.

Mind you if a custom mesh avatar maker or mesh clothing designer doesn't want to use the new automatic texturing system they won't have to.  For a mesh to use the automatic texturing system it will be an option they chose upon uploading the mesh to SL just like "Include skin weights" and "Include joint positions" are.

So the benefits of such an automatic texturing system are:
1. Reduces lag because custom avatar would not need to have layer upon layer of mesh to simulate skin, tattoo and other clothing layer the default avatars have.
2. Makes creating custom mesh avatars easier because no need to take the mesh duplicate it and make it slightly bigger for each layer you want to simulate and then cut them all up into 40 or 50 pieces and have scripts and huds to hide those pieces.
3. No more need for appliers.
4. Makes custom mesh avatars and mesh clothes easier to use and more versatile.
5. Allows your favorite old system clothes and skins that were pre mesh new life.
6. Allow those who just want to make textures to make textures for all sorts of new mesh.
7. Allow those who just want to make mesh to allow others to texture for them increasing sales for both.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Cathy Foil said:

The new automatic texturing system that Medhue is talking about can be used for other things besides applying textures to custom mesh avatars .  It can be used to texture mesh clothes themselves.  Say a mesh clothing designer creates a dress and releases the UV layout for that dress.  A great texture artist can take that UV layout and make wonderful textures for that dress and sell them as an outfit.  All the customer has to do is buy the original mesh and then buy the outfit from the texture artist and simply right mouse click on both in their inventory and click wear.  Simple!

The mesh dress designer is happy because they will sell more dresses and the texture artist community will be happy because now texture artists that don't make mesh can now make all sorts of textures for all sorts of mesh.  It is a win win win.  Mesh designers who don't like or are not particularly good at making textures don't have to make them if they don't want to. Texture artists that don't want to make mesh or are not good at making mesh win.  The average resident wins because now the mesh clothing they buy are more versatile and if they want to they try making their own textures for the mesh clothes they buy they can.

 

Yeah... You appear to be suffering from Tech-Fail. The auto-mated system he was talking about is based on Server Side Baking, where the system takes yur system skin and system alpha and system layers and bakes them into a single texture for each of head,  upper body, and lower body. So this system ONLY works if the uv mapping exactly corresponds to system avatar us mapping, anything else, epic bake fail. You can't use it to bake clothing textures for "some mesh dress that somebody released the uv's for". Your list of winners is suspect too... How exactly does a designer benefit when instead of buying their new products, people can just go to World-O-Crap Discount Freebie Warehouse and get ne of those 'complete fashion store in a box system layer collections from 2006, for a linden and have them work on their mesh bodies and clothes. Just means sales go down and people wear a lot of ugly old crap thats best buried.

As for your supposed 'benefits' lets take a look at some.

1. No need for the three clothing layers - Trust me, you tell a 3d modeler that they dont need parts B,C,and D of their mesh but will need to remake part A, they will simply remake part A with more polygons, so your 'big reduction in lag' won't happen.

2. No need for huds and alpha cuts - Yeah, see that's gonna be a problem.  "hey guys, all the mesh clothing you have that doesnt have an old system alpha layer, is now useless because THAT woman over  there took away your alpha  huds... Get the Tar and Feathers, Get HER!"

3. No need for appliers - Erm you talk as if thats an urgent problem we need to address. Meh

4 Easier to use and more versatile - Maybe, just a lottle, but it's not exactly rocket science using a mesh body now, you have to be pretty dim to have problems, frankly.

7. Mesh makers can concentrate on making mesh - They do already dear, its called Full Perm Template, and theres tons of it, get with  the program.

6. Allows texture makers to make textures for new mesh - Yeah that happens already too, see point 7, you really need to keep up.

 

AND Finally... the point we all knew was coming and which is the whole point of the discussion...

5. Lets you use all that tired old crap from 2006 just like the  good old days when i could just double click on stuff without thinking, and hey presto, bad skin and ugly clothes happened auto-magically!

Mesh hating Neanderthals of 2006 Unite! Abandon these meshy Cro-Magnon ways, leave your mesh houses, burn your mesh clothes, back to the prim caves!

 

I'm not even going to dignify point 5 with an answer, see my previous post about cave dwellers dressed in 2006 prim goat skins
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/20/2017 at 5:23 AM, ChinRey said:

I wasn't actually talking about virtual worlds but virtual reality in general. "Game engines" like Unity and Unreal Engine and several others are so far ahead of SL when it comes to graphics quality it's not even funny. These engines are not only used for games either, they're direct competitors to SL in many fields.

Second Life's only remaining advantage is that it has a ready made potential audience. I think that is what keeps it alive and will keep it alive in the future. Of course, with the grid system it is also possible to create larger continuous simulated realities in SL but that is never - if ever - taken advantage of. There may not be much need for it either. The largest simulator you can make with a modern game engine is nominally the size of 256 SL sims, effectively the equivalent of about 500. Only the largest mainland continent groups are bigger than that and they are so fractured that although you can walk from one place to another there, they hardly coutn as continous simulations.

To directly quote you "Everybody else have caught up and raced past."  Now you are saying only two design engines have done so. If this was the case, where are the virtual worlds that are so far beyond what SL can do? None of the other VWs come close. No mesh bodies with fitted mesh clothing, most don't have mesh at all. None of the games created with Unity and Unreal engines can do what SL can do, so what exactly are you talking about? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Klytyna said:

 

Yeah... You appear to be suffering from Tech-Fail. The auto-mated system he was talking about is based on Server Side Baking, where the system takes yur system skin and system alpha and system layers and bakes them into a single texture for each of head,  upper body, and lower body. So this system ONLY works if the uv mapping exactly corresponds to system avatar us mapping, anything else, epic bake fail. You can't use it to bake clothing textures for "some mesh dress that somebody released the uv's for". Your list of winners is suspect too... How exactly does a designer benefit when instead of buying their new products, people can just go to World-O-Crap Discount Freebie Warehouse and get ne of those 'complete fashion store in a box system layer collections from 2006, for a linden and have them work on their mesh bodies and clothes. Just means sales go down and people wear a lot of ugly old crap thats best buried.

As for your supposed 'benefits' lets take a look at some.

1. No need for the three clothing layers - Trust me, you tell a 3d modeler that they dont need parts B,C,and D of their mesh but will need to remake part A, they will simply remake part A with more polygons, so your 'big reduction in lag' won't happen.

2. No need for huds and alpha cuts - Yeah, see that's gonna be a problem.  "hey guys, all the mesh clothing you have that doesnt have an old system alpha layer, is now useless because THAT woman over  there took away your alpha  huds... Get the Tar and Feathers, Get HER!"

3. No need for appliers - Erm you talk as if thats an urgent problem we need to address. Meh

4 Easier to use and more versatile - Maybe, just a lottle, but it's not exactly rocket science using a mesh body now, you have to be pretty dim to have problems, frankly.

7. Mesh makers can concentrate on making mesh - They do already dear, its called Full Perm Template, and theres tons of it, get with  the program.

6. Allows texture makers to make textures for new mesh - Yeah that happens already too, see point 7, you really need to keep up.

 

AND Finally... the point we all knew was coming and which is the whole point of the discussion...

5. Lets you use all that tired old crap from 2006 just like the  good old days when i could just double click on stuff without thinking, and hey presto, bad skin and ugly clothes happened auto-magically!

Mesh hating Neanderthals of 2006 Unite! Abandon these meshy Cro-Magnon ways, leave your mesh houses, burn your mesh clothes, back to the prim caves!

 

I'm not even going to dignify point 5 with an answer, see my previous post about cave dwellers dressed in 2006 prim goat skins
 

Ahh, someone has thrown me a bone to inspire me to learn the new forum. And such a meaty, meaty bone too...

Let's start out on the subject of Tech-Fail. The baking system has absolutely no idea what UV mapping any texture is meant for. All it knows is that it's supposed to stack up certain textures in an order based on the "clothing" assets worn, and send them out as three combined textures - one for the head, one for the body and one for the legs. With mesh bodies removing the need for the original purpose of these textures, there's no technical reason "clothing" and "skins" couldn't be made that would allow the baked textures to be applied to dresses, or even helicopters.

List of winners: In your world, is it common for people to spend thousands of Lindens on a new body because they want to wear old freebies on it? It is? My, what an interesting world you live in...

1. True, a mesh maker could add polygons that aren't really needed. Then another mesh maker can sell the equivalent product without these unnecessary polygons and accurately advertise that their product is lower lag; then the market will decide. In the early days of mesh there were makers advertising their work specifically as "high poly" - it isn't common anymore because the market realized those high-poly things were lag monsters and rewarded more efficient makers.

2. Interesting. Will the new system magically take away old bodies? No? Then people can still wear their old clothing with the bodies they were made for. Those people jacked because they would want to wear "old" clothing with a "new" body - wouldn't they fall under your category of "wearing goat skins"?

3. You might be less "meh" if you were in business and needed to make appliers, often multiple appliers, for your products and had to listen to your customers wailing for appliers for new bodies for your old products.

4.) I have a good computer, which I built myself specifically for Second Life, but live in a location where the internet service is slow and can't be upgraded. Last night it I went to a crowded club wearing a mesh body and it took fifteen minutes for my avatar to coalesce into a single entity, almost entirely because it was made up of multiple small sections which are only necessary to allow hiding body parts without using an alpha texture. I personally consider that a problem. You can consider me to be dim if you like but you do that at your own peril.

5.) I have several avatars. Some have vintage, top quality Curio and Belleza skins that the makers didn't make appliers for and never will. Many have tattoo layer enhancements, including some where separate tattoos are worn on the front and back of the torso (i.e. not viable for mesh bodies even if I could get appliers for them.) I would like to use these semi-custom skins on mesh avatars but can't (legally) right now. If you think I'm a mesh-hating Neanderthal - well, you're just a glutton for peril, aren't you?

*brapp*

Mmm - tasty...

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Ahh, someone has thrown me a bone to inspire me to learn the new forum. And such a meaty, meaty bone too...

Let's start out on the subject of Tech-Fail. The baking system has absolutely no idea what UV mapping any texture is meant for. All it knows is that it's supposed to stack up certain textures in an order based on the "clothing" assets worn, and send them out as three combined textures - one for the head, one for the body and one for the legs. With mesh bodies removing the need for the original purpose of these textures, there's no technical reason "clothing" and "skins" couldn't be made that would allow the baked textures to be applied to dresses, or even helicopters.

List of winners: In your world, is it common for people to spend thousands of Lindens on a new body because they want to wear old freebies on it? It is? My, what an interesting world you live in...

1. True, a mesh maker could add polygons that aren't really needed. Then another mesh maker can sell the equivalent product without these unnecessary polygons and accurately advertise that their product is lower lag; then the market will decide. In the early days of mesh there were makers advertising their work specifically as "high poly" - it isn't common anymore because the market realized those high-poly things were lag monsters and rewarded more efficient makers.

2. Interesting. Will the new system magically take away old bodies? No? Then people can still wear their old clothing with the bodies they were made for. Those people jacked because they would want to wear "old" clothing with a "new" body - wouldn't they fall under your category of "wearing goat skins"?

3. You might be less "meh" if you were in business and needed to make appliers, often multiple appliers, for your products and had to listen to your customers wailing for appliers for new bodies for your old products.

4.) I have a good computer, which I built myself specifically for Second Life, but live in a location where the internet service is slow and can't be upgraded. Last night it I went to a crowded club wearing a mesh body and it took fifteen minutes for my avatar to coalesce into a single entity, almost entirely because it was made up of multiple small sections which are only necessary to allow hiding body parts without using an alpha texture. I personally consider that a problem. You can consider me to be dim if you like but you do that at your own peril.

5.) I have several avatars. Some have vintage, top quality Curio and Belleza skins that the makers didn't make appliers for and never will. Many have tattoo layer enhancements, including some where separate tattoos are worn on the front and back of the torso (i.e. not viable for mesh bodies even if I could get appliers for them.) I would like to use these semi-custom skins on mesh avatars but can't (legally) right now. If you think I'm a mesh-hating Neanderthal - well, you're just a glutton for peril, aren't you?

*brapp*

Mmm - tasty...

Ahhh... Time to rip the flesh of some dinio-bones...

 

Thye empty not-promise made by some out-of-touch Linden to a small clique at a creators meeting, referred apparently to wearing system clothing on mesh avis. That means using the server side baking system to bake your system layers, then finding a way to apply that to a mesh. So yeah you *could* apply your baked 2006 skin with 2006 lingerie and 2006 alphas to a helicopter if you wanted, but if the uv doesn't match the system avi uv, then it sure as hell won't look right.

The suggestion by a Fossi8l-Tech-Fail that "a dress maker can release the uv and then people can make textures for it that will auto apply" is basically nonsense, unless that dress uses the system torso and system skirt uv maps.

 

Mesh bodies havn't "removed the original purpose" of the baked avatar textures, unless you are proposing eliminating system avis altogether...

Applying a temp baked system avatar textre to a mesh body, well theres a number of ways it could be implemented off the top of my head, none are ideal.

A) a 'default bake' texture set, like the 'default media texture' but a set of three blank textures that you can drop on a mesh/prim face, and which are automatically replaced by your current 'bake'

B) the addition to lsl of an OnRebake script event interupt and a new command

list BakedUUID = llGetBakedUUIDS(avkey);

Then you have a script in the object that uses llGetBakedUUIDS to grab the list and apply the textures every time the  rebake event triggers

C) thge idea that theres some EXTRA parameter specified at upload, that makes a mesh autoapply avi bakes, but seriously, you know people will tick it by mistake and then we'll have whole forums of posts asking why peoples houses change colour everytime they put their glitch pants on.

 

And REMEMBER... All these options depend on the uv map for thew mesh bodies being identical to the system avi uv map, which they are not. You mentioned all the different appliers people have to make, my favorite skin maker has to upload 30 odd textures to cope with all the different uv mappings, thats not going to go away, brand x meshbodys will spit blood at having to revert from their 'improved' uv to the system ones, body companies will maybe give up rather than make the change, and you'll probably respond with "market forces and new designers" but realistically that just makes the consumer opposition to this fubar of an idea worse, I dont want my skin maker or body maker or the clothing makers to go out of business, then wait several years for some new kid to develop a decent replacement JUST so neanderthals can wear 2006 goatskins on their mesh.

 

Mesh makers and poly counts... Hah, tell a die hard 3d modeler that they can lose 3/4 of their old version and redirect some of the saved polys elsewhere, and they will, what you will see is mesh makers ripping off the 3 tat/clothing layers, and upping the base body by 100-200 %, , then proudly announcing that Body Mk 3 has 25-50% less polys than old applier era Mk2.

 

You suggest that the loss of alpha cuts on the new Bake-fail bodies will not be a commercial problem, wow, tell me you don't believe that, brand x bodyshop briings out their Fossil Tech Bake-Fail compatible Mk3, same damn shape as the mk 2, and suddenly all your mk 2 clothing, is not compatible because you don't have system alpha layers for it, so you don't upgrade to the Bake-Fail Mk 3, and the Bake Fail program... Fails...

 

Your rezzing problems in clubs, sorry to break this news to you but, a mesh split into pieces has as manby polygons as one that isnt, you wont see some miraculous improvment in rez rates because there are no alpha cuts.

 

Another major problem with the Bake-Faiol body idea is simple this       MATERIALS

System avi's dont support this, so when you bake your old skin and old lingerie with that shiny latex dress, you get a flat texture, sure the body could have a hud to add a 'default shine' but thats a shine applied to EV ERYTHING, including thew skin, so switching to Bake-Fail-body technology would be a giant leap BACKWARDS in avatar rendering .

 

This whole idea is the brainchild of some out of touch fool, pandering to fossils on some damn committee, with hopefully, no real intent to carry it through. But it's now mentioned and we'll see the rumour mill running rampant about "LL bring back system clothing" etc

As for mesh hating neanderthals, you remember what this thread is about right? the question was if there were other mesh hating neanderthals out there who wanted to live in a nomesh world with proper last names only, no mesh no residents, no nothing thats post 2009.

 

So as I said... point 5, the one we'd all been expecting,

"I haz mountain of system, wai can i no wear wif mesh pleese! LL fix it fur meh!"

Same old same old, people with bloated inventories wanting to rescue all their old old crap from oblivion, and happy to sabotage the current system to do it. Sure one day there will be some new tech that makes what we have now obsolete, but applying system bakes from 2006 to modern mesh isn't it.

 

No, I don't think*you* are a mesh hater, but you have failed the basic comprehension challenge, and seem to think you are smnarter than you actually are... Combine that with a fondness for 'chew on the noob' and well... Time for some indigestion...

 

 

/me claws her way out of the dino's stomach clutching it's liver...

*Braaapppp*

"Hmmm not so taste, well past bury-by-date"
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMHO, it is impossible to predict all the crazy ways that people will use a system like the layer baking system the default avatar has. That said, how exactly could it be a negative, at all? If creators do not want to use it, then just don't. I wouldn't advise not using it, because you'd just be creating more work for yourself, and less options for your customers. I also think it's strange to assume any of this has anything to do with bringing back old SL clothing from 2006, although, we all still do love songs from the 80s and we obviously don't have to throw everything out, just cause it is old.

Of course, I'm not a coder, and have no idea exactly how the baking system works, I seriously doubt the system cares at all what the UV maps are. If they, meaning the mesh and the texture, match then bam, it works, almost like magic, but not, or it doesn't match and you get something that doesn't work right. If this does get implemented, I think creators will find some very creative ways to use the system. Why even stick to the default UV layout anymore? Yeah, there are benefits, but you could also create your own, better layout, and anyone could make skins for that one also, just like the default. My cobra could have an unlimited amount of tattoo designs to add to it's skins, or even a tuxedo, just by applying a clothing layer.

The biggest part of this that appeals to me, is that it simplifies avatars for everyone. It's 1 system that makes any avatar fully customizable. Bento did quite a bit to get us part way there, but adding the baking system would bring it all full circle. People thought SL avatars were customizable before, but now they be way more customizable. This all gives every avatar maker a compete system to make the craziest avatars possible, and the users unlimited customizability. As far as avatars in games go, SL would lead them all, by far!

 

Edited by Medhue Simoni
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

And REMEMBER... All these options depend on the uv map for thew mesh bodies being identical to the system avi uv map, which they are not.

Okay, as you obviously have a high degree of confidence in your knowledge, explain to us why the baking system cares how the surface the bakes are applied to is UV-mapped.

This is going to be good...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Medhue Simoni said:

IMHO, it is impossible to predict all the crazy ways that people will use a system like the layer baking system the default avatar has. That said, how exactly could it be a negative, at all? If creators do not want to use it, then just don't. I wouldn't advise not using it, because you'd just be creating more work for yourself, and less options for your customers. I also think it's strange to assume any of this has anything to do with bringing back old SL clothing from 2006, although, we all still do love songs from the 80s and we obviously don't have to throw everything out, just cause it is old.

Of course, I'm not a coder, and have no idea exactly how the baking system works, I seriously doubt the system cares at all what the UV maps are. If they, meaning the mesh and the texture, match then bam, it works, almost like magic, but not, or it doesn't match and you get something that doesn't work right. If this does get implemented, I think creators will find some very creative ways to use the system. Why even stick to the default UV layout anymore? Yeah, there are benefits, but you could also create your own, better layout, and anyone could make skins for that one also, just like the default. My cobra could have an unlimited amount of tattoo designs to add to it's skins, or even a tuxedo, just by applying a clothing layer.

The biggest part of this that appeals to me, is that it simplifies avatars for everyone. It's 1 system that makes any avatar fully customizable. Bento did quite a bit to get us part way there, but adding the baking system would bring it all full circle. People thought SL avatars were customizable before, but now they be way more customizable. This all gives every avatar maker a compete system to make the craziest avatars possible, and the users unlimited customizability. As far as avatars in games go, SL would lead them all, by far!


 

The baking system basically works like this...

You wear some system layer, your viewer sends a 'change of outfit' notification to the server, which pulls the assets for your worn layers, and 'bakes' the layers into a combined texture, 32 bit, for each system body section, head, upper body, lower body, eye, hair, skirt.. The server then sends these temp textures to your viewer, and the viewers of those who can see you in world, and hey presto, you rez properly!

 

Why stick to the default UV, because the system is designed to bake system layers, which use default uv, and apply them to your system avi.

To be fair... you *could* make dummy clothing layers with any damn texture for any damn uv you wanted, as long as you can arrange the uv's on say your dancing elephant, to use the same number of textures.

 

There in lies the first problem...

 

"Hi I recently bought 'cool skin (tm) from FossilTech-BakeFail bodies... and it made my avi look weird, I do not have a bakefail avi"

 

People get confused NOW with what works on what, how bad will that get when a system skin isnt a system skin but a Medhue elephant hide, or a flying hogfish or a helicopter.

 

Second problem with Bake-Fail tech is... It does not do materials, it is diffuse only..

 

 

The whole point of 'a way to allow system clothing/tattoo/alpha layers to  use the SSB to apply to mesh bodies " is so people can wear their old old system clothing on mesh, that's it, a giant leap backwards in avatar technology purely for the nostalgia value.

 

Hell I have some system lingerie I was very fond of, trans/nocopy stuff I've moved with me from alt to alt, but I cant use it now, and frankly much as I liked it, its years old and looks really dated now, I'm willing to let it go, but a lot of people are apparently not so willing to move on.

 

Now, that being said, a universal system for applying textures to mesh, that offered flexibility, is a great idea. However, 'baking system clothing and skin layers" is NOT that system, why waste time effort and resources doing a really bad job when you could do it right.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Okay, as you obviously have a high degree of confidence in your knowledge, explain to us why the baking system cares how the surface the bakes are applied to is UV-mapped.

This is going to be good...

Yes it is... Pay close attention and maybe you'll learn something about SecondLife...

 

Some poor fool goes to TT-BakeFail Clothing Inc and buys a system layer fugly shirt...

They double click on the fuglyshirt clothing item in inventory to wear it...

Their copy of LagStorm sends a 'change of outfit' notification to the server...

The server pulls the worn list, checks the asset servers, pulls the skin texture, tattoo layer, alpha layer, and of course, the retina destroying image from TT-Bakefail Clothing inc, and 'bakes' them into a single torso image.

The server sends the baked image to the viewer which applies it to the system avatar you have on.

If however you didn't stick to the system avatar uv layout then your shirt isnt a shirt, its a helicopter paint scheme

You use bakefail to apply a texture to your dress, it also applies the texture to your system avi,

 

 

Creating a system to allow system-clothing layers to be baked by the standard ssb and THEN applied to a mesh body is NOT the same as 'make a universal mesh applier system for everything and every one'

Be really really clear on this point, Bake-Fail Body texturing is not intended to allow cooler ways to paint your helicopter, its somew random idea thrown out by some fool of a Linden whose probably not bought a new avi in 12 years.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Klytyna said:

Your rezzing problems in clubs, sorry to break this news to you but, a mesh split into pieces has as manby polygons as one that isnt, you wont see some miraculous improvment in rez rates because there are no alpha cuts.

A single mesh in Second Life can have a maximum of eight textured faces. This means that every mesh body that uses patches that turn on and off is actually made up of x/8 separate meshes that are linked together, with x being the total number of alpha cuts (don't forget the cuts in the tattoo/clothing layers in your total, by the way.) It's the downloading and assembly of all these individual pieces that makes a mesh body look fractured until it's completely loaded.

If you can use alphas on a mesh body, though, the entire body can be a single mesh.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

To directly quote you "Everybody else have caught up and raced past."  Now you are saying only two design engines have done so. If this was the case, where are the virtual worlds that are so far beyond what SL can do? None of the other VWs come close. No mesh bodies with fitted mesh clothing, most don't have mesh at all. None of the games created with Unity and Unreal engines can do what SL can do, so what exactly are you talking about? 

There are certainly more than two modern game engines out there even though Unity and Unreal have captured most of the market.

There is no such thing as a virtual world yet. As far as I know, the two largest continuous virtual simulations ever made are SL's two main continent clusters and neither is anywhere near big enough to be called "worlds". In fact, the entire Second Life is still smaller than London. But talking about virtual realities, I do get the impression you think of Second Life and the cheap Second Life copies (which do have fitted mesh avatars btw - at least one well known brand has been copybotted) as the center of the world of virtual realities. It's not. Even combined SL and all the SL based grids are still just a tiny little marginal niche on the outskirts of a huge business.

You're absolutely right that there is a lot you can do in SL that can't be done anywehre else. That's why I'm still here and why I still love the place. ^_^

But why not focus on Second Life's strengths rather than its weaknesses?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Second problem with Bake-Fail tech is... It does not do materials, it is diffuse only..

Why would meshes lose their materials? What reason can you give to even remotely assume that any mesh would lose their materials just because a diffuse texture is applied to it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Medhue Simoni said:

Why would meshes lose their materials? What reason can you give to even remotely assume that any mesh would lose their materials just because a diffuse texture is applied to it?

Clueless Linden suggests misusing the SSB system to apply skins etcto a mesh body...

 

the SSB system bakes flat diffuse only textures, and appliesthem to your NEW single layer only BakeFail-Mesh body, so, if you want to make that shiny latex top look shiny with materials, you cant without also shining the skin etc, because all your materials applications are SYSTEM CLOTHING style baked diffuse only.

 

It's wont 'remove materials, but it wont apply them either, diffuse only, no specular maps, no normal maps, no materials

 

 

A 'new universal mesh applier system' might, system avi SSB wont.


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

If however you didn't stick to the system avatar uv layout then your shirt isnt a shirt, its a helicopter paint scheme

You use bakefail to apply a texture to your dress, it also applies the texture to your system avi,

 

As a mesh body wearer, when was the last time you actually saw the bake for your system avatar's torso or legs?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Clueless Linden suggests misusing the SSB system to apply skins etcto a mesh body...

 

the SSB system bakes flat diffuse only textures, and appliesthem to your NEW single layer only BakeFail-Mesh body, so, if you want to make that shiny latex top look shiny with materials, you cant without also shining the skin etc, because all your materials applications are SYSTEM CLOTHING style baked diffuse only.

 

It's wont 'remove materials, but it wont apply them either, diffuse only, no specular maps, no normal maps, no materials

 

 

A 'new universal mesh applier system' might, system avi SSB wont.


 

Even if the body is only a single layer (and nobody here has been saying that) there's nothing stopping wearing clothing on a separate texturable layer. That's exactly how Chip Midnight's bodies work and even some Veg-O-Matic slice 'n' dice bodies do the same thing.

Of course this is all only important to people who think applier "clothing" actually looks like clothing in the first place...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

As a mesh body wearer, when was the last time you actually saw the bake for your system avatar's torso or legs?

Every time I make a system avi shape, so last was just before xmas, but I see my system head every day, but never mind that.

 

It's good to see you finally realised the biggest drawback of using SysAvi-SSB to paint helicopters, now try this one, you wear your old pre mesh catwa skin then go flying in your helicopter, and... when you rez the chopper, its got your crotch spread 10 feet wide down both sides of the hull in 1024 x 1024 hi rez skin quality detail, isn't that going to be fun flying over G rated sims in the Blake Sea...

 

So, planning more pointless defence of a lameduck idea casually throw out at some unimportant meeting by a Linden who hadn't really thought it through and probably didn't mean it anyway ?
 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Of course this is all only important to people who think applier "clothing" actually looks like clothing in the first place...

It's probably not your thing but go check "MdlM Latex Catsuits" on the MP for Maitreya only, you'll need advanced lighting on, and remember to use the 'shine on/off button on the LAYER tab of your hud, they do a demo, try it, looks like a latex catsuit to me, thanks to... materials, normal maps and specular maps.
 

Edit: I remembered the name Chip Midnight, but I had to  go look to see why, hahaha yeah a modders body, O could wear that if I felt like making my own skin and clothing all the time, and making my own alpha textures for all the stuff the presets dont work with but frankly, it's more trouble than it's worth,

 

I'd be more likely to go back to system than wear a hobbyist project, which is what that is, you pay 2250 to start a hobby as your own content creator! The suggestion that you pester your skin maker to convert their mass market skins to hobbyist mode too, is especially fun

 

"Hi I know you already upload 30 odd textures for all the options on all the bodies and heads, but would you mine catering to the Chip Midnight Home Content Creator Kit too ?"

A modders body is a fun idea for those who want to spend all their time on a work slap messing with it, but meh

I remember trying their femdroid demos way way back too, wasn't greatly impressed
 

Edited by Klytyna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Every time I make a system avi shape, so last was just before xmas, but I see my system head every day, but never mind that.

 

It's good to see you finally realised the biggest drawback of using SysAvi-SSB to paint helicopters, now try this one, you wear your old pre mesh catwa skin then go flying in your helicopter, and... when you rez the chopper, its got your crotch spread 10 feet wide down both sides of the hull in 1024 x 1024 hi rez skin quality detail, isn't that going to be fun flying over G rated sims in the Blake Sea...

 

So, planning more pointless defence of a lameduck idea casually throw out at some unimportant meeting by a Linden who hadn't really thought it through and probably didn't mean it anyway ?
 

Because, of course, it would be impossible to use a bake to texture the helicopter, click a button to make the helicopter stop receiving bakes because you're done with that project, and then bake your default avatar normally.

Oh wait - it would actually be trivially easy!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Edit: I remembered the name Chip Midnight, but I had to  go look to see why, hahaha yeah a modders body, O could wear that if I felt like making my own skin and clothing all the time, and making my own alpha textures for all the stuff the presets dont work with but frankly, it's more trouble than it's worth,

 

But if it could take bakes and used the default avatar UV you wouldn't have to do any of that, now would you?

Edited by Theresa Tennyson
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

But if it could take bakes and used the default avatar UV you wouldn't have to do any of that, now would you?

9 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Because, of course, it would be impossible to use a bake to texture the helicopter, click a button to make the helicopter stop receiving bakes because you're done with that project, and then bake your default avatar normally.

Oh wait - it would actually be trivially easy!

 

Not gonna waste two posts replying to two increasingly desperate fail defence posts of a fail idea...

You are assuming that the Labs would be sensible when choosing a SSB-to-Mesh system and make it something with an off button, but you are old enough to know that's not how they work, right? So, don't assume a possible new feature intneded to let old fossils wear their old system clothes on new mesh bodies, would actually come with an off button to stop your crotch getting painted on the hull of your heli just because you hope to miss-use the system as a paint applier.

 

And as for the idea that owning a bahefail body wouldn't be a damn hobby, get real, all those clothing items you have that don't come with an alpha, so you have to make your own and then make alpha layers to wear so you can bake them onto your bakefail,body.

All you are doing is spamming more pointless defence of a clueless idea that was doomed to failure before the Linden spouting it opened his mouth, why not do something more productive, like, ohhh, cow tipping or standing at an info hub with a sign saying "I'm a muppet, please kick me", or even...

 

Contacting Omega and making helpful suggestions on how they could improve their system by adding alpha layer support to diffuse/normal/and specular support, using some cunning new script method you've devised to access an external baking server, or start a jira calling for LL to abandon Project Stupid and redirect the funds to making a new multi use texture baking system that fully supports materials, and comes with a scripted off button and works on more than just people.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

All you are doing is spamming more pointless defence of a clueless idea that was doomed to failure before the Linden spouting it opened his mouth, why not do something more productive, like, ohhh, cow tipping or standing at an info hub with a sign saying "I'm a muppet, please kick me", or even...

 

Actually what I'm indulging in is my dirty little hobby of making people who think they know more than they do* spin themselves around in circles, and my usual favorite target isn't posting in the forums much any more.

*(i.e. "So [the baking system] ONLY works if the uv mapping exactly corresponds to system avatar us mapping, anything else, epic bake fail. You can't use it to bake clothing textures for "some mesh dress that somebody released the uv's for")

Edited by Theresa Tennyson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Actually what I'm indulging in is my dirty little hobby of making people who think they know more than they do* spin themselves around in circles, and my usual favorite target isn't posting in the forums much any more.

*(i.e. "So [the baking system] ONLY works if the uv mapping exactly corresponds to system avatar us mapping, anything else, epic bake fail. You can't use it to bake clothing textures for "some mesh dress that somebody released the uv's for")

Like I said... you think you are smarter than you really are, you enjoy playing 'pin the tail on the noob' and think you are spinning me around...

 

Epic fail. the rumoured 'use system avi ssb to apply baked system layers to mesh avatars' feature, will only work properly on mesh avatars that conform to system avatar uv maps, this is simple enough even you should understand it. However, if you WANT to paint your tw*t on the side of a helicopter every time you wear your rancid old catwa skins, and encourage people to wear low quality hobbyist avis, feel free to do so by filing a jira calling for Bake-0Fail applier technology.


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Klytyna said:

Like I said... you think you are smarter than you really are, you enjoy playing 'pin the tail on the noob' and think you are spinning me around...

 

Epic fail. the rumoured 'use system avi ssb to apply baked system layers to mesh avatars' feature, will only work properly on mesh avatars that conform to system avatar uv maps, this is simple enough even you should understand it. However, if you WANT to paint your tw*t on the side of a helicopter every time you wear your rancid old catwa skins, and encourage people to wear low quality hobbyist avis, feel free to do so by filing a jira calling for Bake-0Fail applier technology.


 

"So [the baking system] ONLY works if the uv mapping exactly corresponds to system avatar us mapping, anything else, epic bake fail. You can't use it to bake clothing textures for "some mesh dress that somebody released the uv's for"

Is the bolded red statement true or false?

Please be assured that I'm not debating you because I think you're a "noob" - I know you've been around for quite a while. I picked you as a target because of your post history. Congratulations!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...