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GaryPreston

Is there anyone else who feels the same as I do about having a Second Life withour mesh?

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My only irritable issue with mesh is why it's such an incovenience to simply make it resizable. Laziness? Incompetent? What is it, because I cannot tell you how many mesh items I've come across where it looks good but can't resize it.

In a world full of possibilities, there's no excuse or defense as to why there cannot be a method to resize mesh. When I gaze at these items, I can see them being bigger and I could see them fitting more when resized.

I just think it's outright laziness for a lot of vendors out there who don't do this.

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Hmmmnnn, no mesh? That would mean I would have to go back to my ugly system feet, and the limited choices for footwear, soooooo no, I will keep my mesh thank you.

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LordHappycat wrote:

My only irritable issue with mesh is why it's such an incovenience to simply make it resizable. Laziness? Incompetent? What is it, because I cannot tell you how many mesh items I've come across where it looks good but can't resize it.

In a world full of possibilities, there's no excuse or defense as to why there cannot be a method to resize mesh. When I gaze at these items, I can see them being bigger and I could see them fitting more when resized.

I just think it's outright laziness for a lot of vendors out there who don't do this.

The 'excuse' is the best one.  Most mesh clothing is rigged, and it is impossible to rezize rigged mesh.  That's because points of the clothing is attached to your avatar's bones. 

Use fit mesh only and you won't have as much of a problem.  With standard sized mesh the garment is rigged in that it only fits one way.  However fit mesh will mostly automatically adjust itself to your avatars body.

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LordHappycat wrote:

My only irritable issue with mesh is why it's such an incovenience to simply make it resizable. Laziness? Incompetent? What is it, because I cannot tell you how many mesh items I've come across where it looks good but can't resize it.

In a world full of possibilities, there's no excuse or defense as to why there cannot be a method to resize mesh. When I gaze at these items, I can see them being bigger and I could see them fitting more when resized.

I just think it's outright laziness for a lot of vendors out there who don't do this.

Another fine example of someone who doesn't understand how SL works, so blames creators for things over which they have no control whatsoever, didn't cause, and cannot fix. 

How pleasant it must be, when things don't go the way you like, to never bother considering that maybe the problem is your lack of understanding or mistake or failure to read directions, but sure that someone else was lazy or incompetent or greedy or mean. How lovely to never have to take the blame for your own failures, sailing through life without ever experiencing unpleasant self awareness.

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Lindal Kidd wrote:

Also, have you noticed that Mesh avatars (and mesh clothes) often have a LOWER complexity than traditional avatars with old style prim and sculpty clothing attachments?

This is really brand dependant though. On both ends of the spectrum.

There are very laggy pre-mesh items, and very laggy mesh items. There are very lightweight pre-mesh items, and very lightweight mesh items.

It helps to start reading some blogs that discuss how to monitor things like avatar complexity, land impact, client-side "perception of lag" and so on.

I've written on the topic often. So too has Penny Patton.

Not enough others join us in this - and some actively avoid the subject or ridicule attempts to improve their own experience.

 

I could easily see the original poster encountering some of the bad mesh, and drawing a conclusion about all mesh.

I've demo'd the male bodies again recently - and found they're all kind of badly done in this department compared to some of the "better" female options (like Belleza). And when you add in the male 'prop' it can get amazingly bad.

(The original poster's name sounds male - so I'm making a guess here that he might have suffered undue lag after trying some male mesh avatar products and props.)

 

I cna also certainly understand missing the days when so much of what was in SL could be built inside of SL - and when even the things built outside of SL were not that complex to learn to build. We did have a LOT more brands putting out goods back then - though at the same time the volume they sold I suspect was a lot less.

That said, for me - the mesh has been a great improvement in helping me define "myself". I was OK with myself before it, but I'm happy with what I have now that I've got it.

 

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Exactly. The reason we can't resize rigged mesh clothing is because we would have to change the shape and size of the avatar's bones. Otherwise, the vertices of the mesh are attached directly to the bones and would just go back to the original places when scaled.

 

Also, SL isn't a fully functioning 3d modeling engine, and thus lacks the precise controls needed to affect individual vertices and rigging on the fly.

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HarrisonMcKenzie wrote:

Exactly. The reason we can't resize rigged mesh clothing is because we would have to change the shape and size of the avatar's bones. Otherwise, the vertices of the mesh are attached directly to the bones and would just go back to the original places when scaled.

 

Also, SL isn't a fully functioning 3d modeling engine, and thus lacks the precise controls needed to affect individual vertices and rigging on the fly.

The only mesh body parts I own are feet and hair, yet I have known for years that rigged mesh cannot be modded. It's part of the deal when you wear it. Yet we have rigged mesh wearers come here once a week trashing greedy creators who stubbornly refuse to make rigged mesh mod! 

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Pamela Galli wrote:


HarrisonMcKenzie wrote:

Exactly. The reason we can't resize rigged mesh clothing is because we would have to change the shape and size of the avatar's bones. Otherwise, the vertices of the mesh are attached directly to the bones and would just go back to the original places when scaled.

 

Also, SL isn't a fully functioning 3d modeling engine, and thus lacks the precise controls needed to affect individual vertices and rigging on the fly.

The only mesh body parts I own are feet and hair, yet I have known for years that rigged mesh cannot be modded. It's part of the deal when you wear it. Yet we have rigged mesh wearers come here once a week trashing
greedy
creators who stubbornly refuse to make rigged mesh mod! 

It's not about greedy, it's about simple superstitious stupidity. There are plenty of reasons to make rigged mesh mod, nothing to do with size. For starters: how much less confusing Inventory is when you can simply rename the item, without having to embed it in a whole different folder.

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Qie Niangao wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:


HarrisonMcKenzie wrote:

Exactly. The reason we can't resize rigged mesh clothing is because we would have to change the shape and size of the avatar's bones. Otherwise, the vertices of the mesh are attached directly to the bones and would just go back to the original places when scaled.

 

Also, SL isn't a fully functioning 3d modeling engine, and thus lacks the precise controls needed to affect individual vertices and rigging on the fly.

The only mesh body parts I own are feet and hair, yet I have known for years that rigged mesh cannot be modded. It's part of the deal when you wear it. Yet we have rigged mesh wearers come here once a week trashing
greedy
creators who stubbornly refuse to make rigged mesh mod! 

It's not about greedy, it's about simple superstitious stupidity. There are
plenty
of reasons to make rigged mesh mod, nothing to do with size. For starters: how much less confusing Inventory is when you can simply
rename
the item, without having to embed it in a whole different folder.

I should have said "resizable" not mod, since the poster I was responding to was excoriating creators for not making rigged things sizable, not all mods.

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I remember my first mesh clothing item, over 4 years ago, a pair of rigged mesh thigh boots, they were great, so much better than those awful 2 part sculpty jobs that always scissored at the knees...

 

I remember being accosted the first day I wore them by some arrogant ignorant fossilised permanoob lastnamer from planet neanderthal, who addressed me to inform me that my lack of legs offended them, and ruined their SL, and that I shouldn't wear mesh because...

 

"Most people cannot see mesh"

"Really? I thought that most people used either the mesh capable SL viewer or the equally mesh capable Firestorm viewer?"

"No, most people use viewer 1.23 which is the best viewer"

"Ah so the official figures are wrong... Had you considered upgrading to the current sl viewer?"

"No, my pc is too old to run a mesh viewer"

"What are your specs?"

"My specs are [blah blah blah]"

"AH... so you are using a pc with TWICE as many cpu cores, running at 50% higher clock speed, with FOUR times as much mainboard ram, and you can't run the same mesh cabable viewer that I use..."

 

Over the years I must have heard this same fact free BS about a "Golden Age", that never existed, from more than 1000 of these clueless rodents.

 

These neanderthals, skulk in their caves, wrapped in rotting pelts from dead cave bears, angrilly shaking pointed sticks at those pesky Cro-Magnons, with their chins, and bulging foreheads full of brains, always inventing stuff like domesticated livestock, and agriculture, and pottery and houses...

 

The people don't just hate mesh, they hate tattoos worn on a tattoo layer, and people who wear alpha layers instead of using invisiprims as gawd intended, they hate hair that doesnt have a recolour and resize script in EVERY SINGLE ONE of its 438 prims, they hate people who don't have "proper last names" who might be smarter than they are, they hate every thing thats NOT 2006.

 

Years in SL are like centuries in RL, they way you find out the current SL 'century' is simple. Take the current RL year, say 2017, and drop the 20, then add 01-99 on the back according to how far into 2017 we are at about 8 1/3 years per month, so end of Feb.

 

Call it 1715. The Age of Enlightenment, when tea drinking heros in red coats and tricorned hats, boldly go, their 5 year mission to seek out new worlds and new civilisations, and teach them to drink tea, play cricket, and wear proper trousers.

 

And the SL Neanderthals 'Golden Age' ?

Thr 600's, when shambling hordes of illiterate nomadic savages swarmed about with their feet wrapped in dead goats, and a rotting pelt thrown over their shoulders and their heads shoved up a dead badgers arse, looting and burning on the mainland, fighting the "Parcel Wars", and looking like crap.

 

I fully support a no-mesh lastnamer only opengrid for these people, send them on their way to the "Extinct Species Reservation" that they desire so much, SL will be better without them.

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Mesh is what got me back into Second Life after an absence of many years.  Computer graphics moved on and left SL behind, and I could no longer stand the ugly avatars.  Mesh somewhat bridges the gap.  I agree with whoever mentioned Open Sim - it may a solution to your problem. Because mesh is now everywhere,  always.

 

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I think mesh is much better than regular avatars, for me it makes them look less block like (mesh feet make me happy). My first avatar here never had mesh anything but I don't really have an issue running SL or with meshes loading, if anything textures load slower for me and I still don't know why. I own a mesh body, hands and feet only thing I don't have is a head which I'm still not sure about getting. Maybe inworldz would be better for you? Or do they have mesh now too?

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I only started using SL semiregularly once mesh was commonplace because the system avs are Unbearable to me lmao

I mean there are other grids that don't have it, try those out if you want?

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19 hours ago, GongYoo said:

... . Maybe inworldz would be better for you? Or do they have mesh now too?

Inworldz has had mesh for some time now. 

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On 2/19/2017 at 8:18 PM, Pussycat Catnap said:

There are very laggy pre-mesh items, and very laggy mesh items. There are very lightweight pre-mesh items, and very lightweight mesh items.

 

 

   When I shop, I visually check the polygon density of demo clothing/attachment mesh items and do a mental quality vs. render weight ratio evaluation, secondary to budgetary concerns. I learned quickly that much of my favorite flexi-content hair is pretty costly. :(

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On 2/19/2017 at 5:44 PM, ChinRey said:

Syo Emerald wrote:

 

No. He never was. From the first moment Second Life existed, he was never going to be the only one.

There is a very important difference though. Back in the first years Second Life was something new and exciting and it was cutting edge technology with lots of appeal to the "computer geeks". It isn't today. Everybody else have caught up and raced past.

What other virtual worlds have "caught up and raced past?" 

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1024 x 1024 textures used on not just mesh clothing but other items slows down sl in general, instead of using more materials a lot of mesh creators put one or two textures / materials using these large textures. I am lucky it does not effect me as such because i have a high spec pc and graphics but many people use older pc's and then there are laptops.

I always try to use 512 textures or less on my builds.

Edited by Phoebe Avro
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On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 1:15 AM, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

Exactly. The reason we can't resize rigged mesh clothing is because we would have to change the shape and size of the avatar's bones. Otherwise, the vertices of the mesh are attached directly to the bones and would just go back to the original places when scaled.

 

Also, SL isn't a fully functioning 3d modeling engine, and thus lacks the precise controls needed to affect individual vertices and rigging on the fly.

Although this might have been true at some point, it is not true today, especially since THE BENTO PROJECT.

With Bento and Fitted Mesh, avatars, and their clothing, today are affected quite significantly by our custom Body Shapes. That said, rigging avatars and clothing is not small task, so the results will be sketchy, at best.

Edited by Medhue Simoni

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7 hours ago, Medhue Simoni said:

Although this might have been true at some point, it is not true today, especially since THE BENTO PROJECT.

With Bento and Fitted Mesh, avatars, and their clothing, today are affected quite significantly by our custom Body Shapes. That said, rigging avatars and clothing is not small task, so the results will be sketchy, at best.

Sorry, but that's just not true. Mesh is rigged to your skeleton. Bento didn't change that. To resize rigged mesh, you could have to change the placement of your bones, which you can't do. Bento just added more bones that can be used in fitted mesh.

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3 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

Sorry, but that's just not true. Mesh is rigged to your skeleton. Bento didn't change that. To resize rigged mesh, you could have to change the placement of your bones, which you can't do. Bento just added more bones that can be used in fitted mesh.

I helped develop Bento, and I was 1 of the key people that helped to get bone translation into Bento. Today, whether by redefining the positions of the bones in the initial skeleton, or you do it with animation, you can move bones however you wish. No new fitted mesh, or collision bones were added. That said, with any of the new bones, you can rig whatever you want to them and move them however you want. For instance, you could make a jacket, throw in some of the bento bones, say the wing bones, and use animation to adjust the jacket.

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I'll also throw out some stuff that will likely blow some people's minds. At the last few Content Creation Meetings, which happens almost every Thursday at 1pm, LL has been talking about developing a way for all mesh avatars to use the same Baking system the default avatars use. So, instead of these mesh avatars using so many vertices and layers that they become laggy and almost unrezzable, you'd use the same clothing layers that the default legacy avatars use, on any mesh avatar. Every mesh avatar could use all the different clothing and tattoo layers. Show me any game in the world that can come close to having customizable avatars like that.

Imagine my elephant with clothing layers baked onto it.

r0BYY4.gif.83cec913026fd96438200b9659e498f5.gif

Edited by Medhue Simoni
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@Medhue Simoni

So, are you saying that a content creator would no longer have to cater to one mesh body over another? Would that also mean appliers for various body types could be a thing of the past?

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15 hours ago, Chase01 said:

@Medhue Simoni

So, are you saying that a content creator would no longer have to cater to one mesh body over another? Would that also mean appliers for various body types could be a thing of the past?

No thats not what he is saying, he's saying that in *theory*, you *could* use the non human bones in a bento skeleton as 'clothing handles' to change the size or shape of a mesh clothing item, so your jacket would basically have an AO or Expression hud of its own, to move the sides in and out or some such.


 

Of course, doing this means your jacket could never be worn by anyone who wore very expensive bento wings for example, and would get you a rep for making bloody inconvienient clothing with wing/tail wearers, especially if they paid a lot for their new bento wings and tails, it would be the 'save the ears' campaign all over again.


 

And NO this has absolutely nothing to do with UV texture mapping and appliers whatsoever.
 

Ah wrong med post, the one about mesh layers... hmmm somehow i see that as not happening, yeah a plan to let system clothing work on mesh avis... some people in the clothing business would hate that, all that old clothing being worn instead oftheir new products. Besides... theres still the alpha sort problem, a lot of old layer clothing uses alpha blend, setting it to mask would basically break it, so NO, dont count on being able to wear system layer clothing on mesh bodies with no appliers, it's one of those 'hella kewl' ideas that people on committees come up with that almost certainly fail when or if it's tried in practice...

 

Appliers are here to stay for a while...
 

Edited by Klytyna

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On 16.3.2017 at 1:21 PM, Drake1 Nightfire said:

What other virtual worlds have "caught up and raced past?" 

I wasn't actually talking about virtual worlds but virtual reality in general. "Game engines" like Unity and Unreal Engine and several others are so far ahead of SL when it comes to graphics quality it's not even funny. These engines are not only used for games either, they're direct competitors to SL in many fields.

Second Life's only remaining advantage is that it has a ready made potential audience. I think that is what keeps it alive and will keep it alive in the future. Of course, with the grid system it is also possible to create larger continuous simulated realities in SL but that is never - if ever - taken advantage of. There may not be much need for it either. The largest simulator you can make with a modern game engine is nominally the size of 256 SL sims, effectively the equivalent of about 500. Only the largest mainland continent groups are bigger than that and they are so fractured that although you can walk from one place to another there, they hardly coutn as continous simulations.

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