Regardless of which "side" you're on

[Maelstrom Janus]

I think youre having the same problem with Donald that we've had with Brexit in the UK ... and that is that some vociferous people seem to forget how the majority voted and what the majority wanted.... Personally I think Trump is looking out for the interests of his country which is what any leader should do.... In addition I wish all these people who're ranting about him being voted President and his policies which the majority knew he'd instigate woud  clear off and restrict their protests to within the borders of the US....

 

Personally I think in view of Clintons very low standing in Russia Donald's inauguration has prevented a major cataclysm...needless to say Im glad to see Donald in the Whitehouse especially after a singualrly feeble president....and Id have thought his clampdown on travel from major terrorist stronghold would have been welcomed after loosing 3000 and more of your populations to one of the most heinous attacks on innocent civilians seen on this planet...

[Maelstrom Janus]

I think youre having the same problem with Donald that we've had with Brexit in the UK ... and that is that some vociferous people seem to forget how the majority voted and what the majority wanted.... Personally I think Trump is looking out for the interests of his country which is what any leader should do.... In addition I wish all these people who're ranting about him being voted President and his policies which the majority knew he'd instigate would  clear off and restrict their protests to within the borders of the US....

 

Personally I think in view of Clintons very low standing in Russia Donald's inauguration has prevented a major cataclysm...needless to say Im glad to see Donald in the Whitehouse especially after a singualrly feeble president....and Id have thought his clampdown on travel from major terrorist stronghold would have been welcomed after loosing 3000 and more of your populations to one of the most heinous attacks on innocent civilians seen on this planet...

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Yes, it is sad. Every summer we have a group of lifelong friends that get together. Now, that group is split. Hillary supporters have crossed Trump supporters off their friends list, tho the Trump supporters do not yet know it. 

And I understand why. I do, it is defensible. But I could never do it. 

---

There are at least two schools of thought on this defriending business. Travis Kalanick, CEO of Uber, just resigned from Trump's economic council after an uproar from his customer base. Meanwhile, amid rising concern from Tesla customers, Elon Musk has said he's going to stay in. He argues (I think rightly) that you can't bend someone's ear if you can't reach it.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Klytyna wrote:

Her reply is always the same...

 "I don't have theist friends, I don't fraternise with the enemy..."

 

---

But there's also. "Keep your friends close... and your enemies closer."

[Klytyna]

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Maelstrom Janus wrote:

...and Id have thought his clampdown on travel from major terrorist stronghold would have been welcomed after loosing 3000 and more of your populations to one of the most heinous attacks on innocent civilians seen on this planet...

---

See, the problem with that statement is... The countries from which the perpetrators of that attack came, are NOT on the ban list...  

15 of the 19, came from a country that a) buys a lot of weapons from the  US, and b) sells a lot of oil to the US. Popular politcal Ideologies often get in the way of mere FACTS.

[Pamela Galli]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

---

Pamela Galli wrote:

Yes, it is sad. Every summer we have a group of lifelong friends that get together. Now, that group is split. Hillary supporters have crossed Trump supporters off their friends list, tho the Trump supporters do not yet know it. 

And I understand why. I do, it is defensible. But I could never do it. 

---

There are at least two schools of thought on this defriending business. Travis Kalanick, CEO of Uber, just resigned from Trump's economic council after an uproar from his customer base. Meanwhile, amid rising concern from Tesla customers, Elon Musk has said he's going to stay in. He argues (I think rightly) that you can't bend someone's ear if you can't reach it.

---

In the case of my Trumpeter friends -- two couples, all of whom I have known since I was a kid -- I have noticed that when they say something that just might be construed as racist -- but which they would be very surprised to know that it is -- and I provide a different perspective, I can see them sort of mentally stop in their tracks -- and think. Like, gee, they had not seen it that way, and it almost makes sense.

As I say, I do understand the reasoning behind cutting these people dead, forever.  But I prefer to teach, and who but people I love and love me would be susceptible to listening? And in the case of my friends, they really do not know what they have done. Which of course is why other friends are cutting them dead -- so they will be impressed with the magnitude of it.

 

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

---

Madelaine McMasters wrote:

---

Pamela Galli wrote:

Yes, it is sad. Every summer we have a group of lifelong friends that get together. Now, that group is split. Hillary supporters have crossed Trump supporters off their friends list, tho the Trump supporters do not yet know it. 

And I understand why. I do, it is defensible. But I could never do it. 

---

There are at least two schools of thought on this defriending business. Travis Kalanick, CEO of Uber, just resigned from Trump's economic council after an uproar from his customer base. Meanwhile, amid rising concern from Tesla customers, Elon Musk has said he's going to stay in. He argues (I think rightly) that you can't bend someone's ear if you can't reach it.

---

In the case of my Trumpeter friends -- two couples, all of whom I have known since I was a kid -- I have noticed that when they say something that just might be construed as racist -- but which they would be very surprised to know that it is -- and I provide a different perspective, I can see them sort of mentally stop in their tracks -- and think. Like, gee, they had not seen it that way, and it almost makes sense.

As I say, I do understand the reasoning behind cutting these people dead, forever.  But I prefer to teach, and who but people I love and love me would be susceptible to listening? And in the case of my friends, they really do not know what they have done. Which of course is why other friends are cutting them dead -- so they will be impressed with the magnitude of it.

---

I like learning more than I like teaching, and that's another reason to stay in the fray. If you cut loose everybody who disagrees with you, who's gonna tell you when you're wrong?

[Luna Bliss]

 

 

 

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Luna Bliss wrote:

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

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Luna Bliss wrote:

It's a difficult dilemma - how abusive does a friend/family member have to be before one should/could/would cross them off their 'list'.

---

I think when they can't show they respect you anymore is the point where they  aren't your friend anymore.  People don't have to agree with you but can still respect you and your opinions.

---

With our votes we are deciding matters of life and death and immense suffering for people as the goods of society are divided. Access to medical care, food, shelter, and basic rights come to mind.

The problem for me, Amethyst, is that I don't respect nor do I want to befriend anyone who is racist or who votes in ways that cause harm to disenfranchised or marginalized people. It goes way beyond just not accepting a difference of opinion (which is easy for me to do in most matters). I consider these people as abusers and I would no more want to be friends or just "agree to disagree" with them than I would want to befriend a pedophile or child beater.

...

 

---

Luna, I make a distinction between those who have political views different than mine and those that are racist, or bigoted against any group of people, due to religion, sexual orientation or nationality.  The latter people I never befriended and if I did and find them out later, my first reaction is to try to change their minds.  If I find that is hopeless, then I no longer consider them friends and tell them in no uncertain terms why.

While I try to show respect to everyone, I am very choosy when it comes to picking my friends.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Luna Bliss wrote:

 

 

 

 

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Awww, ain't they cute?

And they both have more hair than I do!

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Maelstrom Janus wrote:

... people seem to forget how the majority voted and what the majority wanted.... ..

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The majority of voters didn't vote for Trump, that's why so many are against him.  If the election were decided by popular vote, he would have lost by over 3 million votes.  Trump only won the presidency by winning the electorial college.

[FellicityVixen]

It is a big reason I don't talk about politics in person.

Online- while many places *ban* politics talk (along with religious talk), I find it much easier to explain my point of view across.  Surprisingly, a lot of people who know better than me have explained themselves in a way that has made me think *wow, I didn't think that way, but you're right*.

However, it is difficult.  It's a highly charged topic, it affects everything, and I think it can be very hard when politics does the blame games and the solution tactics, and people either agree, disagree, feel attacked, feels worse off from a course of action, etc.

I believe that religious is very much the same way, though much more personal.

Personally though, I sincerely hope all this politics are a huge overreaction, that positive change happens, and that many people and countries who thought they were negatively affected actually have a good outcome to it all.  I just think there's going to be changes along the way, and change is usually pretty hard these days.  I really hope that it's good for everyone.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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FellicityVixen wrote:

Personally though, I sincerely hope all this politics are a huge overreaction, that positive change happens, and that many people and countries who thought they were negatively affected actually have a good outcome to it all.  I just think there's going to be changes along the way, and change is usually pretty hard these days.  I really hope that it's good for everyone.

---

I hope the same, Felicity.

[Aislin Ceawlin]

Precisely, Amethyst. The friends that I still have that voted for Trump are adult enough to be able to have conversations, and we are able to learn from each other. The others...pffft, why continue to tolerate them?

[Aislin Ceawlin]

Maelstrom clearly has no grasp on what's REALLY happening here in the U.S.

[Aislin Ceawlin]

I think that we're seeing that the reality is that "good things" are not going to come from this man. He's proving daily how dangerous, and uneducated he really is.  ETA Sorry, I really had no intention of going there...ugh.

[Aislin Ceawlin]

I also wanted to say thanks to everyone for proving that we can have a great discussion about this without it getting out of hand!!! Isn't this better than "Why can't I log in"? There've been so few good discussions here in a long time! 

[Aislin Ceawlin]

You really hit it spot on!!! Also, congratulations on the lettuce!!! I prefer Romaine, myself, but hey, #AllLettuceMatters!!

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Aislin Ceawlin wrote:

Maelstrom clearly has no grasp on what's REALLY happening here in the U.S.

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Well, I'm not sure I do either. Just as pollsters got it wrong before the election, they may be getting it wrong now. It seems that telephone polls manned by people are showing Trump with more disapproval than approval while robotic and anonymous online polls show the opposite. The theory is that Trump supporters are afraid to come out of the closet.

This seems plausible to me, as I'm aware that some of my friends express different political leanings in my presence than when with people who share their views. Friends have told me over the years that I'm intiimidating and people sometimes tell me what they think I want to hear.

Beware halls of mirrors.

[ChinRey]

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Klytyna wrote:

Political division in the US isn't NEW, it's a constant thread since 1775.

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For those who think it's bad now:

What other founding fathers besides Alexander Hamilton participated in duels?

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_duels#United_States

Maybe that is the way to hold elections? Give the candidates guns and let them settle it the good old fashioned way.

[Aislin Ceawlin]

I refuse to discuss this with you, Madelaine...you scare me...Haha! Seriously, though, I understand exactly what you're saying.

[Aislin Ceawlin]

But then the dems would be so busy trying to regulate the duel that the Republicans would just grab the gun and shoot...lmao! (I'm actually for a litttle more control on gun sales, myself...nothing crazy, though, just a little more "vetting" as is the popular term right now)

[Luna Bliss]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

---

Luna Bliss wrote:

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

---

Luna Bliss wrote:

It's a difficult dilemma - how abusive does a friend/family member have to be before one should/could/would cross them off their 'list'.

---

I think when they can't show they respect you anymore is the point where they  aren't your friend anymore.  People don't have to agree with you but can still respect you and your opinions.

---

With our votes we are deciding matters of life and death and immense suffering for people as the goods of society are divided. Access to medical care, food, shelter, and basic rights come to mind.

The problem for me, Amethyst, is that I don't respect nor do I want to befriend anyone who is racist or who votes in ways that cause harm to disenfranchised or marginalized people. It goes way beyond just not accepting a difference of opinion (which is easy for me to do in most matters). I consider these people as abusers and I would no more want to be friends or just "agree to disagree" with them than I would want to befriend a pedophile or child beater.

...

 

---

Luna, I make a distinction between those who have political views different than mine and those that are racist, or bigoted against any group of people, due to religion, sexual orientation or nationality.  The latter people I never befriended and if I did and find them out later, my first reaction is to try to change their minds.  If I find that is hopeless, then I no longer consider them friends and tell them in no uncertain terms why.

While I try to show respect to everyone, I am very choosy when it comes to picking my friends.

---

That sounds like a good way to handle it, Amethyst, regarding those who are "bigoted against any group of people, due to religion, sexual orientation or nationality".

But taking this a bit further and addressing attitudes toward the poor and disenfranchised, what if someone's 'political view' causes suffering and death of disenfranchised people? (I'm thinking here about the Republican notion of reducing taxes on the wealthy while cutting aid to the poor, as well as the deceptive ruse of 'trickle down economics').

What would you do if you encountered a friend who was aware of the abusive policies (not simply ignorant of the ramifications of these policies) and thought it was simply okay for a society to funnel money to the wealthy while murdering the poor? Or that the dynamic should simply 'play out' in the free market due to their paranoia of anything in society being 'forced' (a libertarian)?

[Madelaine McMasters]

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ChinRey wrote:

---

Klytyna wrote:

Political division in the US isn't NEW, it's a constant thread since 1775.

---

For those who think it's bad now:

What other founding fathers besides Alexander Hamilton participated in duels?

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_duels#United_States

Maybe that is the way to hold elections? Give the candidates guns and let them settle it the good old fashioned way.

---

I'm all for it!

http://twainhartevisitor.com/marktwain/story.php?author=marktwain&story=duel

https://futureboy.us/twain/tramp/tramp08.html

Twain's numerous recounts of duels have made me a rabid fan of the art form.

And then there's the Hamilton-Burr duel - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr–Hamilton_duel

When I was young and first learned of it, I put Aaron Burr on my naughty list. Years later I had the good fortune to read the Federalist Papers (and the Anti-Federalist Papers, from which arose the Bill of Rights). Notwithstanding the merit of Hamilton's arguments (he wrote the bulk of the Papers), his writing style is beyond vexing. His use of "negspeak" (a term I just made up to describe phrases like "notwithstanding their lack of insubordination", which I also just made up but gives you a sense of his writing style) forced me to go at the Papers with several different colors of higlighter just to make sure I got his drift.

With each subsequent reading of the Papers (I open them each new decade and I'm about to start again, a li'l early) I develop a softer spot in my heart for Mr. Burr for having put Hamilton out of my misery.

 

[ChinRey]

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Aislin Ceawlin wrote:

(I'm actually for a litttle more control on gun sales, myself...nothing crazy, though, just a little more "vetting" as is the popular term right now)

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Oh, I always thought the gun/anti gun disputes in the USA were just because 'mericans love to argue.

Where I live you have to show that you can handle a gun and store it safely, that your criminal record isn't too bad and that you either want or need a gun (you need either a hunter's license or a membership in a gun club). Automatic weapons are illegal but that's ok - no self respecting gun enthusiast would ever admit they need more than one bullet anyway.

Works perfectly well. I've only lost one uncle and three friends to guns and one of them wasn't even a particularly close friend. And I've only ever heard one bullet flying over my head. (A few tips to all gun enthusiasts btw: make sure there are no children playing on the hillside you use as a screen behind your target, do not go home and fetch your shotgun when you're in an argument while you're drunk, do not just assume your father's revolver is unloaded when you're demonstrating russian roulette and when you're hunting, remember when Mr. Safety Catch if off, Mr. Gun is not your friend. Oh, and please remember that your wife and everybody else who love you won't be happy if you walk into the forest to put a bullet through your own head. Little details like those are so easy to forget but they do matter to somebody.)