Regardless of which "side" you're on

[Aislin Ceawlin]

With all of the unrest and division in the U.S. right now, who has lost friends and family members to this nightmare? I'm absolutely blown away by some people that I've known pretty much my entire life, this has really brought out peoples true colors. :smileysad:

[Christin73]

Sadly politics and religion devides people. We sould all be uninting against hate, and bigotry. As for the protests going on, vilonce is not going to get them anywhere. A good example of what a good protest is, just look at the womens marches that took place not just in the US but around the world. They were massive but yet peacefull and you saw no arrests. As for lossing friends over all this mess, apparently they were not true friends if they felt they had to drop you over political views.

[wormywood]

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Aislin Ceawlin wrote:

 this has really brought out peoples true colors. :smileysad:

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no it did not.

It shows only that a two party system can't handle all processes in a complicated nation.

A third understream was there and nobody watched it.

Now it's democratic elected and oversounds the false "all is good" mentality that has ruled for all that time.

People can protest against it, and might have the power of many, but the box of pandorra is open, and will never close again.

[Alwin Alcott]

i think you should keep this out of SL, it's been a pretty safe place till now, this will divide people even more..

 

there is no real difference in beeing bitten by the dog or cat... both hurt.

[Rhonda Huntress]

Don't blame me.  I voted for Gary Johnson.

[Xtacky Haystack]

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Aislin Ceawlin wrote:

With all of the unrest and division in the U.S. right now, who has lost friends and family members to this nightmare? I'm absolutely blown away by some people that I've known pretty much my entire life, this has really brought out peoples true colors. :smileysad:

---

Sitting here in the United Kingdom, we're huddling closer together in my part of the country, partly as we laugh because you've got a bigger tosspot leading your country than we have, but partly in fear because TrumpTrousers has the same "charisma" as ... nope can't continue with that sentence.

I haven't met anyone who admits to actually having voted for Trump, but then I haven't met anyone who actually voted for Cameron either. 

 

Its a shame if you've lost who you thought were good friends through a difference of opinion. No doubt when rulers have this "power" to divide communities, thats where they gain their strength.

*****

On a lighter note, we have this iceberg lettuce shortage currently in Europe, but I bought a smashing iceberg that was imported from the good ol' U S of A in Tesco (other supermarkets are available) for 79p. Bigger than the Spanish iceberg lettuces, and really crunchy and magnificent, so worth the extra 39p. 

 

 

[Xtacky Haystack]

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Alwin Alcott wrote:

i think you should keep this out of SL, it's been a pretty safe place till now, this will divide people even more..

 

there is no real difference in beeing bitten by the dog or cat... both hurt.

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I think they should keep it in SL. For some of us non-USA citizens its interesting to see some proper USA opinions instead of being fed the crap the newspapers bollshut us with.

Does Trump know what trump means in UK? I had a dinner lady called Mrs Trollope when I was at school and wasn't allowed to even mention her name at home because it was a rude word! To see Trump in big proud letters on his plane and his building and all is very amusing to us for whom fanny means a wholly different thing.

 

Its the little things.

[Aislin Ceawlin]

Sorry, Alwin, I disagree. People here in the forums are always complaining about the lack of anything other than "where do I get this hair" posts. We are all adults, and we've had many discussions in these forums that were heated and hurtful to people. I'd like to think that maybe....JUST MAYBE, we can discuss this without getting crappy with each other. That is exactly why I said "Regardless of which side you're on". My OP was intended to discuss the loss of friends and family members, not anything more. I don't care WHO anyone voted for in this case.                                              ETA; If you don't approve or agree with the subject matter, please feel free to not participate, problem solved.

[Aislin Ceawlin]

The question had NOTHING to do with your response. As far as people showing their true colors, I was referring to people that I have known for most of my life, and it most surely HAS.

[Pamela Galli]

Yes, it is sad. Every summer we have a group of lifelong friends that get together. Now, that group is split. Hillary supporters have crossed Trump supporters off their friends list, tho the Trump supporters do not yet know it. 

And I understand why. I do, it is defensible. But I could never do it. 

[DejaHo]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

 

And I understand why. I do, it is defensible. But I could never do it. 

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I don't understand.  I really, really don't.  My friends are who they are, and I am who I am.  We have many different opinions about almost everything - I choose not to throw them away just because they voted Hillary.  And they have not cast me out either.   My relationships are much stronger than the outcome of politicians politicking to win a job.  

 

I think it is the OP that gets it wrong and may be slightly exaggerating in an attempt to gain a sense of ....

 

[Klytyna]

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DejaHo wrote:

I don't understand.  I really, really don't.  My friends are who they are, and I am who I am.  We have many different opinions about almost everything - I choose not to throw them away just because they voted Hillary.  And they have not cast me out either.   My relationships are much stronger than the outcome of politicians politicking to win a job.   

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As a life long atheist, this sort of division doesn't surprise me, and it's not new.

I have atheist friends, one of them is an outspoken activist6 against attempts by certain religious fanatics to erradicate atheists.

 

She regularly gets asked by self styled 'tolerant believers' the same question "what do your [name of religion brand here] friends think of your stance" presumably on the assumption that somehow they can use her friends to shame her into submitting to their Grang high Poobah's call for reeducation camps for the godless on Faux News.

 

Her reply is always the same...

 

"I don't have theist friends, I don't fraternise with the enemy..."

 

Political division in the US isn't NEW, it's a constant thread since 1775. There is a parish register from the 1770's where the tea hating Rebel Insurgant pastor made notes in the margins about his parishoners, recording who were Rebel Insurgants, who were Tea Drinking Loyalists, and who just didnt give a damn.

 

The split was an even 3 way tie. He did this apparently because he believed that after the Revolt had been won, the Tea Haters could arrest the Tea Lovers, and confiscate all their property and divide it up for themselves.

 

It's no surprise that after the revolt, most of the Tea Lovers moved to Canada.

 

1860, America, having enjoyed poor success in it's wars against weaker neighbors, decides that the only real solution is to... Declare war on it's self...

 

Cue a 5 year conflict that still has people waving rival flags at each other  and screaming a century and a half later.

 

What with the constant war of political inaction waged by the Demopublicans and Republicrats, underpinned by the Libertaibigots demanding the right to shoot the UPS guy for tresspassing when he walks on their drive to deliver their order from Amazon, and Pale people demanding the right to shoot Less Pale people on sight, and Frothy Religious Extremists calling for Equally frothy extremists from the enemy religions to be banned from the country, frankly it's more of a surprise that any American has any American friends at all.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I have lost no one.  While most of my friends and family agree with me politically not all do.  Those where we have disagreements can still discuss our views civilly and where we can not agree, we still respect each other enough to agree to disagree. 

[Pamela Galli]

I have lost no one either. I don't completely agree with either side on all issues and I know all these friends well enough to at least understand that whatever they believe, and how confounding those beliefs are, I still love them. 

[Luna Bliss]

It's a difficult dilemma - how abusive does a friend/family member have to be before one should/could/would cross them off their 'list'.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Luna Bliss wrote:

It's a difficult dilemma - how abusive does a friend/family member have to be before one should/could/would cross them off their 'list'.

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I think when they can't show they respect you anymore is the point where they  aren't your friend anymore.  People don't have to agree with you but can still respect you and your opinions.

[Derek Torvalar]

One cannot be betrayed if one has no people.

Simple.

[Taramafor]

This is why I don't take sides or play favorites. Someone nearly fell out with me for being a none voter. But they know I got good reason for it. Hurt people I care about by doing that in the past. Never again. Voting alone doesn't get results. The people have the power, not just the big cheeses. What affects one side affects the other. Both positively AND negatively. I'm not joking here, people will get depressed and worse when they're on the losing side. Argue "It's their own responsibility" all you like but that's no excuse to ignore ones own actions (and inactions) affecting others.

 

Minority matters as much as majority as well. Voting just doesn't take that into consideration. By making people take sides it completely contradicts that. The only winning solution for me is to find a way for everyone to benefit (it is not unrealistic. Not even trying to do it doesn't make it happen either. effort produces results). I also don't care about strangers I don't know. There's no "majority rules" here. Everyone is different. Everyone will have different perception/beliefs and so on. Both strangers and close company both. Each and every one is important and never something to vote against. It's a simple case of what works on an individual level. Just because I don't care about a stranger doesn't mean they might not end up as someone I care about. What if I end up with a child that's very, VERY different and not at all like me? Would I have to approve of them just to fit in? I remember gay rights being a voted on thing. Screw that, I'd rather teach "if it works for you, it works for you". If someone else is into "kink here" it works for them. Accepting what works for others gets them to more easily accept what works for others and myself. That's what I'd teach a kid. Not to take a side.

As long as people care more about "most others that are strangers" more then "Close company that matters" the system will always be flawed. Yes everyone matters but loyalty over empathy. Maybe that's just my way though. Now I want to be clear what I mean here when I say "loyalty over empathy". It doesn't mean "build a wall". Hell no. It simply means "This stranger has shown they're here". And that easily applies in ow own borders as much as outside of them. Think just Mexico is at fault? Tch. I know someone that was a gun dealer. We are NOT innocent. The whole world is as guilty of bad as much as the next part of it is. There's a lot of good too, fortunately. But it's not a case of "This is the best/worst place". It's a case of "This is what happened at this place, regardless of the border/country". We don't choose where to be born either. Nor can most easily move away if there's a conflict of interest. Immigrants aren't the problem, it's people in our OWN borders not wanting to be like everyone else. Regardless of their heritage.

And say the vote won in the end all you like but if nothing else the results clearly state how much difference of interests there is in the UK. I'm aware of things in the US, this is simply an example. The two cases seem to be as conflicted as each other from what I can gather.

 

Have I voted? No. Does it make change happen for strangers? No. but has it cost me any close/loved ones? No. But will I speak up and argue for someone to be themselves if someone is giving them **bleep**? (be it as they are or what they believe in) Damn right I would, I'd claw their bloody eyes out. Technically I'd calmly explain acceptence of difference itself but you get the idea. THAT is the attitude we need. For the PEOPLE to start waking up and make things happen with how they treat others. Voting can help with that and voting can even hinder that but it is in our ACTIONS not a tally that change happens. People might be voting but are they making actions?

[Aislin Ceawlin]

A sense of what? I've exaggerated nothing. I think you must be pretty sheltered if you honestly believe that. I've literally "heard" (read, etc) hundreds of people from both sides discussing this exact topic. The friends that I have lost have revealed themselves to be many types of "phobic" and even racist when they had never made those sorts of comments before (at least not in my company).ETA I also still have many friends who didn't vote the same as I did, but we respect each other and consider each others beliefs and feelings.

[Luna Bliss]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

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Luna Bliss wrote:

It's a difficult dilemma - how abusive does a friend/family member have to be before one should/could/would cross them off their 'list'.

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I think when they can't show they respect you anymore is the point where they  aren't your friend anymore.  People don't have to agree with you but can still respect you and your opinions.

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With our votes we are deciding matters of life and death and immense suffering for people as the goods of society are divided. Access to medical care, food, shelter, and basic rights come to mind.

The problem for me, Amethyst, is that I don't respect nor do I want to befriend anyone who is racist or who votes in ways that cause harm to disenfranchised or marginalized people. It goes way beyond just not accepting a difference of opinion (which is easy for me to do in most matters). I consider these people as abusers and I would no more want to be friends or just "agree to disagree" with them than I would want to befriend a pedophile or child beater.

I think a problem with progressives is that they have not been firm enough on these matters, and that we need to show a kind of 'tough love' as opposed to love or acceptance in order to maintain friendship.

It can be difficult to decide when to cross someone off my 'list', as some are not aware of the consequences of their voting choices. Am I going to cross my elderly neighbor, Mrtyle, off my list because she ran around the neighborhood trying to get people to vote against marriage equality for gay people in a local election, a vote that would cause some gay people to endure death totally alone in a hospital due to their spouse not considered as 'family' and so barred from their deathbed, or cause a child to be torn from a gay parent who was deemed unfit by yet another regulation that painted gays as less worthy? Or what about her vote for Republicans that threw a lot of residents off medical care causing some of them to die? She's old and set in her ways, influenced by religion, and I don't expect as much from her, and so she has less culpability in my eyes.

These are the kinds of issues that are difficult to sort out.

[Luna Bliss]

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Aislin Ceawlin wrote:

A sense of what? I've exaggerated nothing. I think you must be pretty sheltered if you honestly believe that. I've literally "heard" (read, etc) hundreds of people from both sides discussing this exact topic. The friends that I have lost have revealed themselves to be many types of "phobic" and even racist when they had never made those sorts of comments before (at least not in my company).ETA I also still have many friends who didn't vote the same as I did, but we respect each other and consider each others beliefs and feelings.

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It's almost as if (in their mind) Trump has given them the license to be racist isn't it?

[kattatonia Wickentower]

Real friends don't require their friends to agree with them on everything.  They are capable of disagreeing and still remaining friends. 

[Aislin Ceawlin]

Let me just say that this was never intended to be an argument between the left and the right. I was only thinking of how sad it is that the current situation has been so destructive to relationships for people on both sides of the coin. Since it seems to have taken a turn from my original intent, I will agree with you, Luna. Seems funny that some have an issue with this topic, but are so thrilled with the one about LL standing up regarding the Muslim ban. I live near (ish...30 minutes) from Dearborn, Michigan, the largest Muslim/Middle Eastern community outside of the Middle East. I have many Muslim friends, (my best friend since 3rd grade is Muslim) I live 20 minutes from Detroit, I have many black friends, I personally identify as Bi, So, when someone I know suddenly  starts talking about how all the Muslims/blacks/Mexicans need to get out of the country.it makes me mad. When they suddenly reveal that they think LGBTQ people don't deserve the same rights afforded to everyone else, it makes me mad. When I hear men that I've known 40 + years laughing and joking about sexual harassment and shaming rape victims, it makes me REALLY mad.. From where I sit, it seems to have brought out the worst in a lot of people. I will now return you to "Can you identify this hair?"

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Aislin Ceawlin wrote:

With all of the unrest and division in the U.S. right now, who has lost friends and family members to this nightmare? I'm absolutely blown away by some people that I've known pretty much my entire life, this has really brought out peoples true colors. :smileysad:

---

Is it our "true colors" that are showing, or true ignorance, or true pyschological differences? I don't think I've been surprised by the recent revelations of any of my friends, whether they agree with me or not. For example, I've a cousin who's a physician. I asked her about the recent rise in awareness of "trans" issues.

She: "Trans is made up, there are only boys and girls, nothing in between".

Me: "Have you ever seen a patient with ambiguous genitalia?"

Yes: "Yes, but we can fix that surgically".

So there you go. A person with an education in her field that surpasses my education in mine who has offered me what appears to be a contradiction. She has compartmentalized her thinking about gender and is unable to see any conflict in her statement. That conversation continued for another few minutes, during which she dug in and told me "You simply don't have the education or experience to understand this, Maddy". I see this happen all the time. I presume that I do it as well, and that like my cousin I can't see it from the inside and probably couldn't be convinced I'm doing it by anyone on the outside.

I recently stumbled across a small medical study showing that conservatives have larger (or more active) amygdalas than liberals and that liberals have larger (or more active) anterior cingulate cortexes. The idea is that conservatives are motivated by fear and liberals are better able to handle complexity and change. I'd like to believe this, but have some skepticism to overcome (small sample size is but one concern)

Regardless whether we're looking at true colors or unavoidable side effects of being humans, I do think this is a time for me to be heard, so I plan to start attending rallies and protests, if only to learn whether people who agree with me are as nutty as those who don't.

;-).

[Aislin Ceawlin]

Thank you for your thoughtful, intelligent reply...lol! I think that regardless which term we use (true colors, etc) we mean, basically, the same thing. I've also found that it is time to stand and be heard. I've been the jokester, the "funny one" (read people pleaser) most of my life. I would do anything I could to avoid confrontation. With this, I have found my voice