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Pamela Galli

Do yourself a huge favor...

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Read Penny Patton's updated camera position tutorial, if you have not already:

http://pennycow.blogspot.com/2016/11/the-improved-sl-camera-revisited.html

Put an end to your camera flying up behind you like a kite, getting stuck behind walls!  Easily position your camera in a more convenient, natural spot, as in most video games.

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Thank you Pamela, it's been a while since last time somebody mentioned that blog.

I wonder if we can get LL to make this thread sticky.

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I regularly post a link in my blog, Facebook, Twitter, etc. and get more positive response than most other tips I share. I mean, flying your camera behind you like a kite is crippling! 

 

 

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Let's see if I can figure out how to word this so it doesn't inadvertently cause any offense. I agree with Penny's earlier arguments about the default camera position leading to over-sized everything and the waste that causes. This is basically a thought I had while pulling my camera back out so I could appreciate and get around an outdoor sim. It's offered here as a possible addition to this discussion.

The default camera position isn't necessarily bad for large outdoor areas. For all that our physical eyes are fixed, our mental camera position changes when we're outdoors vs indoors. (Or outdoors in a fairly closed in area like dense forest where we can't see far or indoors in something like a shopping mall.) If anyone can think of better wording than mental camera position, go for it. It's the best I've been able to think of this morning.

We have to do this intentionally and artificially in SL via the camera position. Since it's automatic in RL, not everyone will think of it in SL though and people end up building their indoor spaces as if they were outdoor spaces, and that leads to all sorts of other problems. This way of describing it, building indoor spaces as if they were outdoor spaces, really works for me to sum up the situation so perhaps it might click for others too.

------------

About the post in Penny's blog that Pamela linked to in this thread, it's a bit too claustrophobic for the way I move about in SL most of the time. Depends on what I'm doing and how immersive I want it to be. I don't mind using the sliders in Preferences to adjust and will do so frequently when I'm creating. Getting into the habit of thinking like that - what's best for this particular moment and setting? - gives me the benefits Penny is suggesting, but tailored to the different ways I use SL.

I'm not disagreeing with this post of Penny's, just saying that there is room to broaden the conversation out so the basic message of ADJUST YOUR CAMERA POSITION works for more people. Cause (IMO at least) it needs to work broadly for it to be adopted widely enough to truly tackle the problem of over-sized builds and avs.

Penny's suggested position for cinematic, immersive exploration and RP (and those used to 1st person games), something a bit further back for shopping or general use, maybe a bit further still for outdoors, whatever suits the situation.

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Bitsy Buccaneer wrote:

I'm not disagreeing with this post of Penny's, just saying that there is room to broaden the conversation out so the basic message of ADJUST YOUR CAMERA POSITION works for more people. Cause (IMO at least) it needs to work broadly for it to be adopted widely enough to truly tackle the problem of over-sized builds and avs.

In that case you may be happy to read this: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-2145 ^_^

Of course, an open JIRA doesn't necessarily mean anything will ever happen but at least there is hope.

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Love Zhaoying wrote:

If they take Penny's suggestion of changing the carmera defaults, don't you think that would create a lot of chaos?

Such aaaaaaas?

My experience suggests that SL has two kinds of people in it, with regard to camera defaults...

  • Those who've changed their defaults to better settings
  • Those who've not noticed and don't care

This change would simply bring the second group into line with the first, increasing consistency - or at the very least, visibility.

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Love Zhaoying wrote:

Read the JIRA..WOW! If they take Penny's suggestion of changing the carmera defaults

It's not about changing the default but giving users an easy (by SL standards) way to change the camera position.

I think it's too late now to change the default. It would certainly have made SL a bit more attractive to new users but it would also alienate many old-timers and of course, all those old oversized builds don't work too well with a closer camera position. (That may have been the main reason LL gave up on VR headsets for SL btw. )

 


Love Zhaoying wrote:

don't you think that would create a lot of chaos?

Not really. The shared experience idea is long dead, if it ever was alive at all.

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I think y'all have misunterpreted by statement that changing the camera default would create "chaos".  I will attempt to explain.  Since more than one person questioned my statement I'll just post this separately instead of responding to each.

Assume:

1) 99.999% of SL users are "used" to their current unchanged, original SL camera defaults. 

2) SL users may or may not have learned how to "tweak" their defaults on an "as needed" basis, but they are "used to it now".

3) SL users may have not liked the camera defaults at first, but "got used to it".

Now, if you examine those above assumptions here is what I am proposing:

1) If you change the camera detaults (which was proposed in the JIRA I referenced) for ALL SL users, then all of a sudden ALL SL users will have new camera defaults.

2) Not all users will "like" the new defaults.

3) Communications will not necessarily be sent to or read by all users, so they will not understand why their camera defauts changed.  (Confusion, if not chaos, for a large number of users.)

...are you beginning to see what I am getting at?  Change the camera defaults for ALL USERS an many people will be confused and probably not like the change.

 

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I am not seeing where in that article Penny states that LL should have a new default camera position (although of course it should ). I just see this about a preset which could easily be selected as an alternative to any default:

If you enjoy these settings, contact the developers of your favourite viewer and request that they add this camera placement as a preset in the camera drop-down menu, so you don't have to manually re-enter the settings every time you install a new viewer and you can more easily share the experience with your friends.

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Love Zhaoying wrote:

I think y'all have misunterpreted by statement that changing the camera default would create "chaos".

No but nobody mentioned anything about changing the default, it's all about making it easier for each individual user to change their camera position.

I am convinced the awkward default camera position is one of the three main reasons why SL never had the mass appeal people once believed it would have and I think LL made a huge mistake not correcting it when it was still possible. But that's water under the bridge. As you said, changing it now would create too much chaos and cost more than it's worth.

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ChinRey wrote:


Love Zhaoying wrote:

I think y'all have misunterpreted by statement that changing the camera default would create "chaos".

No but nobody mentioned anything about changing the default, it's all about making it easier for each individual user to change their camera position.

I am convinced the awkward default camera position is one of the three main reasons why SL never had the mass appeal people once believed it would have and I think LL made a huge mistake not correcting it when it was still possible. But that's water under the bridge. As you said, changing it now would create too much chaos and cost more than it's worth.

Penny asked for the default to be changed in the JIRA Love was referring to, and also she asked the Firestorm developers to change the defaults in a Firestorm JIRA a while ago.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


ChinRey wrote:


Love Zhaoying wrote:

I think y'all have misunterpreted by statement that changing the camera default would create "chaos".

No but nobody mentioned anything about changing the default, it's all about making it easier for each individual user to change their camera position.

I am convinced the awkward default camera position is one of the three main reasons why SL never had the mass appeal people once believed it would have and I think LL made a huge mistake not correcting it when it was still possible. But that's water under the bridge. As you said, changing it now would create too much chaos and cost more than it's worth.

Penny asked for the default to be changed in the JIRA Love was referring to, and also she asked the Firestorm developers to change the defaults in a Firestorm JIRA a while ago.

I am certainly in favour of it. Some may not be able to handle a different camera angle but most would love it. Being in SL means adjusting to change periodically, sometimes quite radical ones, and I am just happy when it happens to be positive.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Penny asked for the default to be changed in the JIRA Love was referring to, and also she asked the Firestorm developers to change the defaults in a Firestorm JIRA a while ago.

Woops, I missed that. She added that comment after I read the JIRA and I didn't notice it when I went there to get the link for my post. Sorry, Penny, I agree with you in principle but I think that train left the station long ago.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Some may not be able to handle a different camera angle but most would love it.

That is definitely true. I've recommended Penny's camera settings to lots of people, both newcomers and old-timers, and I've yet to meet somebody who wanted to change back afterwards.

But SL'ers are a stubborn race, they're very conservative and they hate being forced. I actually think more people will go for an improved camera setting if it's presented as an option than if they feel it's something they're forced to adapt to.

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I think Penny has the right idea -- come up with a better default but make the old one a preset. Not unlike when a viewer offers a default but then allows you to choose from options.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I think Penny has the right idea -- come up with a better default but make the old one a preset. Not unlike when a viewer offers a default but then allows you to choose from options.

I've been wrong before and I'll be more than happy to be wrong again this time. :)

Only one way to find out though.

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Bitsy is right.  Some people adjust their camera positions depending on what they are doing.  I do.  What would be ideal is to be able to have a drop down menu in preferences where yuo can select from a few presets and maybe even add your own custom preset.  It could include the tranditional one, Penny's and maybe one for riding in vehicles, building etc.

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Its been ages since I tried her settings and I remember I liked them... but I didn't use them for a long time. 

First problem I had was that every time I updated my viewer (and when I used to play a lot I used more viewers and was making sure each of them is up to date) I had to modify the settings all over again and I guess one time I just let them stay at the defaults.

Bigger problem is about experiences and adjustments. When I went to visit her place for the first time, with default camera position, I felt uncomfortable and like there is no room to move. Everything seemed stuffed with things, like she wanted to show us how we can put more stuff into certain space - by making them tiny. Everything seemed small and like it was made for little people. Then I changed the camera position and things looked normal. 

So the problem is almost like what I have now with the windlights and shadows. I am setting up a new place, rezzed an awesome artistic building, put light projectors all over the place and it really looks great! But only when you turn your graphics all the way up and if you use certain windlight. If you are on mid and the default windlight, the place looks like cr*p lol and I have no idea what to do.

Its always like this in SL (if you own a public place) - you have to check how the place looks in every setting and at the end of the day I guess I will chose one that looks acceptable for most people and that is, still, peple with the default settings. Because a small person can walk into a huge hall but a big person can't (and most likely will not) crawl into a tiny room. 

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SL got through the introduction of jelly dolls and complexity ratings intact, so I think people could probably manage a tweak to the default camera positions alright. :matte-motes-smile:

Going from the current default to Penny's suggestions would be a big jump if it was done in one go, but something smaller would be less of a shock and probably more broadly useful.

Presets would be nice as a way to communicate to visitors which settings a build was designed for, but the sliders are easy enough to use in general. Maybe a UI compromise could be including numbers in that part of preferences as well.

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Tamara Artis wrote:

Bigger problem is about experiences and adjustments. When I went to visit her place for the first time, with default camera position, I felt uncomfortable and like there is no room to move. Everything seemed stuffed with things, like she wanted to show us how we can put more stuff into certain space - by making them tiny. Everything seemed small and like it was made for little people. Then I changed the camera position and things looked normal.

Every now and then I stumble across an old billboard with the old "The Avatar Is You" slogan and I get a bit sad thinking of how much better Second Life would have been if that had ever been more than a poor joke.

Fixing the camera position bug would have been by far the biggest change in Second Life ever and in itself probably the biggest single improvement ever. But it seems to me the roots (ummmm... does a bug have roots or am I mixing metaphors here?) are too deep and too wide by now. Removing the bug would be too disruptive. I would still be very happy if I was proven wrong though.

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Of course most people adjust their cameras, I assume more or less constantly. Most of the time My avi is just ignored while I build and cam around. I only use the camera position I have set when I hit escape , to locate her.  Even then She rarely walks around trailing her camera, but instead uses the camera or a teleport HUD, and my store is set up for flying. 

Camera position is important for those who seek immersion, esp in indoor spaces, while walking around. But even then, I can't imagine not using the camera much of the time to look around. 

For me the discussion is about where you want your camera when you hit escape, which is an individual thing -- yet I bet most users, new and old, really see no advantage to having their cameras flying up behind them like a kite, getting stuck behind walls.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Most of the time My avi is just ignored while I build and cam around.

Off on a tangent but a friend of mine (I won't mention Hattie's name of course) used to have her work platform right above mine. One day she dropped in at my platform and we had a nice long chat. Eventually I asked her why she had come visitng and it turned out she didn't know where she was. She had fallen off her platform without noticing and was still busy working while we were chatting. This happened twice even.

I've never fallen off my platform myself without noticing but that's only because it's a full sim one.

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Pamela sometimes finds herself off in a neighboring sim while I am building. I really dont know what she is up to half the time.

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