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ChadUnfroyd

"Territory of complete geekdom"

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How do you feel about LL's soon-to-depart CEO opening his mouth and sticking his foot in it comment on his perception of Second Life? Are you thrilled that he has noticed your technical expertise? Disappointed because you are only an incomplete geek? Or maybe you consider it an egregious insult?

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If anything, it should be anyone on the Sansar Hype Train who should be offended.  Much like many other MMOs, it sounds like he's targeting an effective "dumbing down" of the experience to attract a more casual market. (^_^)

Second Life does genuinely have a steep learning curve that the Lab has long since failed to address.  They've tried a mentorship program, introductory locations, supporting volunteer communities (to a limit), and pretty much fell flat on their faces every step of the way.  Therefore placing the userbase of SL deeply in the realm of brainy-oddballs-who-can-actually-sort-this-mess-out-for-themselves. (^_^)

What it does really say is that Sansar is going to put limits on SL's historicaly unfettered creativity.  Which just makes this geek leaning toward sticking with SL. (-_-)

 

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ChadUnfroyd wrote:

How do you feel about LL's soon-to-depart CEO opening his mouth and sticking his foot in it comment on his perception of Second Life? Are you thrilled that he has noticed your technical expertise? Disappointed because you are only an incomplete geek? Or maybe you consider it an egregious insult?

Definitely not as an insult, rather an acknowledgment of the skills and persistence of the people who have actually managed to figure out Second Life well enough to use it. ^_^

And also as a belated statement of an obvious fact. I really, really wish Linden Lab had come to that realisation ten years ago when it was still possible to turn SL into the open-for-everybody virtual reality it always pretended to be but never was.

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ChadUnfroyd wrote:

How do you feel about LL's soon-to-depart CEO opening his mouth and sticking his foot in it comment on his perception of Second Life? Are you thrilled that he has noticed your technical expertise? Disappointed because you are only an incomplete geek? Or maybe you consider it an egregious insult?

I consider it more of an insult that a troll would expect me to fall for an "insult" without expecting me to look up the context of the original phrase. I get enough of that from Facebook clickbait.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

ChadUnfroyd wrote:

How do you feel about LL's soon-to-depart CEO opening his mouth and sticking his foot in it comment on his perception of Second Life? Are you thrilled that he has noticed your technical expertise? Disappointed because you are only an incomplete geek? Or maybe you consider it an egregious insult?

I consider it more of an insult that a troll would expect me to fall for an "insult" without expecting me to look up the context of the original phrase. I get enough of that from Facebook clickbait.

Since you could not be bothered to share the "context", here it is:

“We learned some positives but also a lot of ‘that’s not how you do it’ from Second Life,” said Altberg. “So we’re having a much more user-centric approach from the beginning, and try to make sure we stay away from the territory of complete geekdom.”

My reading of it is that he is also insulting the Linden Lab originators and developers of Second Life, as well as the users who built and rebuilt the world, and would be dumbing down Sansar so that it was sufficiently disnified that preteeners and other idiots would be able to use it.

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ChadUnfroyd wrote:


“We learned some positives but also a lot of ‘that’s not how you do it’ from Second Life,” said Altberg. “So we’re having a much more user-centric approach from the beginning, and try to make sure we stay away from the territory of complete geekdom.”

My reading of it is that he is also insulting the Linden Lab originators and developers of Second Life, as well as the users who built and rebuilt the world, and would be dumbing down Sansar so that it was sufficiently disnified that preteeners and other idiots would be able to use it.

 

Could you provide us a coherent argument to justify your reading? Or is this simply an emotional reaction?

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ChadUnfroyd wrote:

My reading of it is that he is also insulting the Linden Lab originators and developers of Second Life, as well as the users who built and rebuilt the world

There's room for different intepretations of course. I read it as a very diplomatic and understated (and well justified if you ask me) criticism of the Linden Lab originators. I can't see how it can be aimed at us users though.

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


ChadUnfroyd wrote:


“We learned some positives but also a lot of ‘that’s not how you do it’ from Second Life,” said Altberg. “So we’re having a much more user-centric approach from the beginning, and try to make sure we stay away from the territory of complete geekdom.”

My reading of it is that he is also insulting the Linden Lab originators and developers of Second Life, as well as the users who built and rebuilt the world, and would be dumbing down Sansar so that it was sufficiently disnified that preteeners and other idiots would be able to use it.

 

Could you provide us a coherent argument to justify your reading? Or is this simply an emotional reaction?

It ain't just me thinking this sweetheart.

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Here is the context:

"But to achieve all that Sansar is setting out to, he acknowledges, they will have to strike a tricky balance: Enabling people such as Hyde to create amazing content, while still keeping the interface intuitive and user-friendly for the average consumer. That’s something that Second Life never quite achieved, but in building Sansar, Linden Lab is determined to draw lessons from its predecessor.

We learned some positives but also a lot of ‘that’s not how you do it’ from Second Life,” said Altberg. “So we’re having a much more user-centric approach from the beginning, and try to make sure we stay away from the territory of complete geekdom.”

- http://uploadvr.com/linden-lab-sansar-creators-money/

In this context, LL has learned from the mistakes made in Second Life, and their aim in Sansar is to allow experienced designers like Loz Hyde to do their (higher-skilled?) work, but also allow the same tools and opportunity to others who are not pro to participate as well.

You know, the intent of SL originally. It was only mesh that truly separated people in SL, and created a learning curve to the average user in order to participate with 'advanced' mesh objects. I was apt and able, and had the desire to learn mesh myself, and tackle the learning curve, while many of my friends felt overwhelmed (and outdated) because they were still stuck with prim building.

Sansar promises to open up this area to everyone, by giving the average user tools to build their own environments (by either purchasing props and assets from creators) or using their own (Loz Hyde level). They'll get rid of the 'geekdom', that means the entry bar level, and allowing more people in.

Right now, I'd agree with his statements. What I would call 'elitist' he calls 'Territory of complete geekdom", because truly SL is full of complete geeks and elitists, the normal people are NOT in SL right now. It's mostly made up of fanbois and creators only. So if Sansar can inspire the 19 out of 21 of my network groups 'non-geek', 'normal' visitors to come back and participate, then that is all the better for me personally, and for everyone.

Caveat: Dont require VR sets for participation.

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entity0x wrote:

 

Sansar promises to open up this area to everyone, by giving the
average user
tools to build their own environments

The "average user" can't even put their VR goggles on the right way up.

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Loz Hyde is depicted in the article and video designing the cathedral using a monitor, and only using VR goggles to test what it would look like from that perspective.

I'm just warning SL to make it accessible from monitors, because VR is a gimmick, and not to alienate the masses that will NOT be purchasing VR equipment anytime soon.

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entity0x wrote:

In this context, LL has learned from the mistakes made in Second Life, and their aim in Sansar is to allow experienced designers like Loz Hyde to do their (higher-skilled?) work, but also allow the same tools and opportunity to others who are not pro to participate as well.

I think you misinterpret him slightly there. In at least one previous interview Ebbe has said that there may eventually be room for users to create their own artwork and such but it seems clear that the intention is to leave the content creation to the professionals while the regular users are there to experience the works made by the pros. One of the preconceptions we should get rid of if we move from SL to Sansar is that content creation is an important and integrated part of the activities in a virtual reality.

But if your interpretation is correct, there are two probelsm LL needs to sort out.

One is IP protection. That is one of the biggest letdowns for professional content creators who consider working in SL.

The other is resource management. Inefficient content isn't necessarily a problem in itself, not as long as there isn't too much of it. Second Life has no effective way to measure how much resources an asset actually consumes. We do have the weights and the LI but those figures ignore some of the most costly aspects of a work and are so imprecise that it's quite common you have to increase the actual resource use to reduce the nominal one. With a proper resource management system there is room for both "professional" and "amateur" content since it allows people to choose: do you want this one resource heavy thingy or all those more efficient ones?

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entity0x wrote:

Here is the context:

"But to achieve all that Sansar is setting out to, he acknowledges, they will have to strike a tricky balance: Enabling people such as Hyde to create amazing content...

Since you and the interview mention that, how does the Sansar video compare to this?

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I thought geek was the new sexy.  :smileyvery-happy:

Anyway, I'm proud of being a geek so I'm not insulted in the least.  To be a geek you have to be smart. 

 

 

 

 

 

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entity0x wrote:

Loz Hyde is depicted in the article and video designing the cathedral using a monitor, and only using VR goggles to test what it would look like from that perspective.

I'm just warning SL to make it accessible from monitors, because VR is a gimmick, and not to alienate the masses that will NOT be purchasing VR equipment anytime soon.

Well, Hyde's Grand Hall wasn't made for Sansar of course. I don't know where it's from originally but I guess it started as part of a movie set. In any case, it works fairly well without a VR headset.

You can check out the SL version yourself if you like. It's extremely poor quality mesh (the picture in my previous post is actually taken with LoD factor 4 and it still has serious LoD issues) but you can still get a sense how a building like that works when viewed on a good old monitor.

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ChinRey wrote:

But if your interpretation is correct, there are two probelsm LL needs to sort out.

One is IP protection. That is one of the biggest letdowns for professional content creators who consider working in SL.


There is no problem. LL has already sorted it out. LL owns ALL intellectual property in their domains. Professional content creators have no choice but to accept LL's ToS.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I thought geek was the new sexy.  :smileyvery-happy:

 

Only geeks think that. It is a self-unfulfilling prophecy derided by non-geeks.

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ChadUnfroyd wrote:

There is no problem. LL has already sorted it out. LL owns
ALL
intellectual property in their domains. Professional content creators have no choice but to accept LL's ToS.

That's SL's ToS. Sansar's will be different. I think LL has already stated that but it goes without saying. They want design studios and architect bureaus to use Sansar as a virtual showroom for their products. Freelancers can choose whether they trust LL not to abuse those extensive rights or not, big companies can't.

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ChinRey wrote:


ChadUnfroyd wrote:

There is no problem. LL has already sorted it out. LL owns
ALL
intellectual property in their domains. Professional content creators have no choice but to accept LL's ToS.

That's SL's ToS. Sansar's will be different. I think LL has already stated that but it goes without saying. They want design studios and architect bureaus to use Sansar as a virtual showroom for their products. Freelancers can choose whether they trust LL not to abuse those extensive rights or not, big companies can't.

Bait and switch. (Like Trump)

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ChinRey wrote:

I think you misinterpret him slightly there. In at least one previous interview Ebbe has said that there may eventually be room for users to create their own artwork and such but it seems clear that the intention is to leave the content creation to the professionals while the regular users are there to experience the works made by the pros. One of the preconceptions we should get rid of if we move from SL to Sansar is that content creation is an important and integrated part of the activities in a virtual reality.

Oh don't worry, the "I'm on the outside looking in" is my default feeling at this time. I really have no idea what their intentions are at all, or what part I will play in it, if any. I'm just guessing in the end.


ChinRey wrote:

But if your interpretation is correct, there are two problems LL needs to sort out.

One is IP protection. That is one of the biggest letdowns for professional content creators who consider working in SL.

Well how can they protect our IP, yet require our IP indefinitely in order to maintain SL's integrity?

Generally, in the past, I've only uploaded IP to sites, from art to music, who's right to access my stuff for the purposes of running the site ends, as soon as I remove the material from the site, and/or I cancel the account. Of course, those sites are hosting my IP, and if people purchase anything, it is downloaded or streamed to their computers, so it doesn't matter if I disappear.

With SL, they need that indefinite access to the IP we upload in order to maintain the integrity of the world and it's objects: Imagine if I delete some IP like I would any other site - Now users can't access that in their inventories. If I close my account, it's the same thing - all my IP would usually follow me.. But SL can't run like that (unless you have another idea).

 


ChinRey wrote:

The other is resource management. Inefficient content isn't necessarily a problem in itself, not as long as there isn't too much of it. Second Life has no effective way to measure how much resources an asset actually consumes. We do have the weights and the LI but those figures ignore some of the most costly aspects of a work and are so imprecise that it's quite common you have to increase the actual resource use to reduce the nominal one. With a proper resource management system there is room for both "professional" and "amateur" content since it allows people to choose: do you want this one resource heavy thingy or all those more efficient ones?

This is true. I can almost upload a 100,000 vertice model on LOD1, and it's only the following LOD models that matter.

Of course, in my plebe opinion, the only difference between a pro and an amateur is access to education on these matters. If SL wants efficiency, they're going to have to educate creators how. In the meantime, I'm doing my best with the information I can find, some in part from many of your posts in the forum.


ChinRey wrote:


entity0x wrote:

Here is the context:

"But to achieve all that Sansar is setting out to, he acknowledges, they will have to strike a tricky balance: Enabling people such as Hyde to create amazing content...

Since you and the interview mention that, how does the Sansar video compare to this?


I'm not sure what your point is, I hope this is a picture from within Second Life, because I thought the same; I didn't see anything amazing in the video, nor any improvement in looks or otherwise, that couldn't still be done in SL.. Sorry if I missed the point.


ChinRey wrote:


entity0x wrote:

Loz Hyde is depicted in the article and video designing the cathedral using a monitor, and only using VR goggles to test what it would look like from that perspective.

I'm just warning SL to make it accessible from monitors, because VR is a gimmick, and not to alienate the masses that will NOT be purchasing VR equipment anytime soon.

Well, Hyde's Grand Hall wasn't made for Sansar of course. I don't know where it's from originally but I guess it started as part of a movie set. In any case, it works fairly well without a VR headset.

You can check out the SL version yourself if you like. It's extremely poor quality mesh (the picture in my previous post is actually taken with LoD factor 4 and it still has serious LoD issues) but you can still get a sense how a building like that works when viewed on a good old monitor.

 Yeah, I'm just saying that if they want Sansar to succeed, better not lock it into VR only.

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entity0x wrote:

I'm not sure what your point is, I hope this is a picture from within Second Life, because I thought the same; I didn't see anything amazing in the video, nor any improvement in looks or otherwise, that couldn't still be done in SL.. Sorry if I missed the point.

You got the point exactly. This is the same building as it is in Second Life. Hyde only did a quick-and-dirty left handed job when he uploaded it to Second Life - he was probably only trying to squeeze a few extra bucks out of an old build he already had - and I would assume he did a more thorough adaptation when he transferred it to Sansar. Also of course, they must have done all they could to make the demo video look as delicious as possible while my photo is unedited and taken with an old windlight I made for a completely different scene. But even so, there must be more than that to explain the obvious difference in quality.

 


entity0x wrote:

Yeah, I'm just saying that if they want Sansar to succeed, better not lock it into VR only.

Oh, definitely! A VR-only virtual world would be even more complete geekdom than SL has ever been. ;)

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I just tried out Hi-Fidelity, an opensource VR environment similar in end-use as Sansar. People can get a taste for what the future holds for Sansar-like VR-centric environments, and just how much different the experience will be than SL.

Not sure why they're announcing all this to us, when clearly their end goal and customer is the creator themselves, so that they buy 'hosting space' on Sansar servers, and we sell the 'experience' ourselves.

As creators, why not just sell the game assets from online stores or our own sites, and just bypass this entirely. Charge $20 for a dungeon assets pack rather than 20 cents, and creators from Sansar can buy our products that way and import them into their 'experiences' themselves.

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ChadUnfroyd wrote:

Bait and switch. (Like Trump)

I don't think LL does that ... anymore. But in any case, LL wants to not only recruit big companies as customers, they also want to keep them.

An independent freelancer may decide to take the risk accepting a ToS like SL's and may well overlook the consequences of a later change. A company with a legal department and CEOs and all that, well depending on their sense of humor those will either break out in hysterical laughter or explode in rage when presented with an SL style ToS, they will notice any changes and if those changes are unacceptable, they will pack their things and leave.

 


entity0x wrote:

Do you have any links to the Sansar IP rights policies yet and how they will work?

I don't think it's been published yet. I seem to remember Ebbe said that the ToS would be different from SL's but I may even be wrong there.

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