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Ciera Richez

We need more attachment points...38 is not enough anymore, IMO.

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Well I can make some great outfits with my mesh and the HUD controllers they come with, but then I want to ride my Bento Horse while wearing said fabulous outfit, but I can't because Horsey is upto another 5 attach points and I dun wanna join a Horse Riding group :P

 

 

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In all seriousness I can appreciate the people who manage to stay at 20 or under attach points and for the sake of their fellow user and the impact they play on the platform overall. One idea I have thought of though is what if, we had a Static and Dynamic mode or state in the client? SL as it stands now is a very dynamic world with many moving parts. But what if I just want to take a super detailed picture with the content that I have now? One could simply go into a Static State that would momentarily freeze their instance (and most likely have to be done at a home point ) with atleast 100 content spots available ( this could include non attached too). Put it on a timer even , like 5 minutes or so. and then when that time is up, the standard dynamic behavior resumes and you can only attach 38 points again.

We already have a 'Record' feature in Developer (or Advanced ?) menu . It would be nice if this could be expanded on. In 'That other World' LL is working on they do appear to be working in instanced based environments and I don't see why something like this couldn't work in SL. The engine would most likely support it too, but then again we still can't even Undock HuDs or Window interface so who's to say.

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15 hours ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

Then again, when I go to events and see so many jelly dolls at a 250K threshold I wonder if adding extra attachment points is really such a good idea.

1) HUDS do not count in complexity and only lag the wearer not others.

2) Sensible people remove the HUDS after they've put their outfit together (and also because your screen is covered in them).

3) Those who theoretically are actually wearing 38 (and in theory 50 if it were increased to 50) would still be a jellydoll and would not affect you or anyone else unless you choose to raise your complexity setting.

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HUDs  still count against attachment point slots ( this thread is about increasing attach points)

HUD's are usually rendered invisible (last I checked ) when taking snapshots and photos. Sensible people.......can go stand over there ------------------->

Jellydolls (jeeze that make me hungry for gummi bears everytime I see that term) are for people who don't put their computer tech as a priority and put it off til the next decade thus running on antiquated hardware , whereas I did take the time and money to prioritize my system to handle such complexity and I therefor can stick my complexity all the way up and  be happy :)

I don't have kids to spend my money on, nor theaters, or bars or vacations, so my machine has a fluid smooth experience in SL among other virtual platforms to the full advantage. but with 38 attachment slots it gets clunky (ok it's sort of a game really to see how I can best fool the system into working with only 38 attach points).

I don't goto events. after 13 years in SL , trust me i've seen them all and besides do steel beams and palm trees draw that much complexity? Now i want to see me , but with my oodles of junk on at 50 attach points :D and I feel really bad for that kitty with no whiskers :o the humanity.

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4 hours ago, Hunter Stern said:

for people who don't put their computer tech as a priority and put it off til the next decade thus running on antiquated hardware

:D

I have a two year old i7 CPU and that's the slowest part of my Alienware system.  The GX 1080 video card is new, tho.  I can run 3 instances of SL on 4K monitors and it runs as smooth as butter.  It performs this well because I don't have to render avatars with 250K+ draw weight.

Your preferences may be different and that's cool.  No reason to worry about rendering costs when you spend your time alone since your own avatar will never be a jelly.

 

[ETA]

Quote

Then again, when I go to events and see so many jelly dolls at a 250K threshold I wonder if adding extra attachment points is really such a good idea.

Just for the record, this line was a joke.  Apparently I didn't make that clear enough when I wrote it.  Sorry about that.

Edited by Rhonda Huntress
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2 hours ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

Then again, when I go to events and see so many jelly dolls at a 250K threshold I wonder if adding extra attachment points is really such a good idea.

I read it as humorous in tone, Rhonda. It does bring up a good point though - some avs will abuse an increase in attachment points and that needs to be taken into account if LL changes things.

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On 7/23/2017 at 8:04 AM, Rhonda Huntress said:

Then again, when I go to events and see so many jelly dolls at a 250K threshold I wonder if adding extra attachment points is really such a good idea.

Yes , I got the humor too , and actually I'm glad they atleast gave us a visual clues and not  just a wall of text and numbers to read over.

I wear a very minimal of attachments in actuality ( I usually have atleast 5-6 free slots on a good day) but some arrangements do call for more robust ideas, like 3D body hair. Guys do or have worn attachment based body hair since atleast 2010 or longer (though not so much anymore) and I happen to like the added fluff besides painted on textures to the mesh body.

I guess the resolution to this would be to ask nicely for those body hair designers to maybe revamp their creations as a complete linked body suit to fit perhaps, (here we go with the whole linked ensembles that was decried in another thread, until it was pointed out that this practice was used for Demos in many cases). but it might be one solution.

I do wish LL could give us some sort of answer asto how and why they came up with the number 38 in the first place.

One of the reasons I take interest in this topic overall, is because I started out in attachment based avatar creation (my AV's usually have over 8 and sometimes 16 legs) for my lively hood in SL for a good amount of time.

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I may be atypical on the other end of the scale.  I don't wear a lot of jewelry, makeup or piercings (just glasses and earrings - occasionally a necklace or bracelets) but I do have a mesh body.  I was curious as to how many attachment points I was using. I'm only using 15 dressed in a casual summer outfit.   So I don't think I would be in danger of using up all the slots unless I radically changed my style.   

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On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 7:59 PM, Whirly Fizzle said:

If any of your attachments are rigged mesh and they are modify, then you can link those attachments together to only take up 1 attachment spot.

The rigging makes sure that each attachment renders in the correct place.

 

Best solution in this thread. :D

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On 24.7.2017 at 7:49 PM, Hunter Stern said:

I do wish LL could give us some sort of answer asto how and why they came up with the number 38 in the first place.

There are several possible reasons.

According to some numerologists, 38 represents the principle of the cosmic or celestial life and in the quasi-Chinese branch of numerology, 38 represents great fortune. Others disagree though and some claim it's an omen predicting a sad end.

Either of these explanations seem equally plausible.

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2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

According to some numerologists, 38 represents the principle of the cosmic or celestial life and in the quasi-Chinese branch of numerology, 38 represents great fortune. Others disagree though and some claim it's an omen predicting a sad end.

Gee, I thought that it was because originally there was only one item allowed per point with a total of 38 attachment points available. 

 

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1 hour ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

 

Gee, I thought that it was because originally there was only one item allowed per point with a total of 38 attachment points available.

That's what they want us to believe.

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4 hours ago, Medhue Simoni said:

Best solution in this thread. :D

Except if they have scripts for color/texture change huds that depend on specific linkset numbers...

That's assuming the stuff IS mod, most clothes and jewelery sold these days are not, apparently.
 

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10 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

That's what they want us to believe.

I see.  It is all about what they want us to believe.

 

If you add up all the possible attachment values (wearing just 1, plus 2, plus 3 ... and so on to 38) there are 741 possible combinations.

Quote

Number 741 is a blend of the vibrations and attributes of number 7 and 4, and the energies of number 1. Number 7 is the number of inner-knowing and understanding others, spiritual awakening, compassion, study, learning and education, deep contemplation, empathic and psychic abilities, dignity and refinement. Number 4 is associated with practicality and application, hard work and responsibility, traditional values, honesty and integrity, patience, and diligence and determination to achieve goals. Number 4 also relates to our passion and drive and the energies of the Archangels. Number 1 relates to creation, progress, inspiration and intuition, new beginnings, striving forward, uniqueness and individuality, inspiration and intuition, motivation and progress. Number 1 encourages us to step out of our comfort zones and reminds us that we create our own experiences and realities.  

Angel Number 741 brings a message from your angels to maintain a positive attitude and optimistic expectations about yourself, your life and your future. Give any concerns, fears or worries to the angels to heal and transmute, and trust that opportunities and new directions in your life are manifesting to assist you along your Divine life path and with your soul mission. Trust that all is going to Divine plan in your life.

Angel Number 741 tells you that if you want things to run smoothly and go in the direction you desire, put thought, proper planning and preparation into any new projects or ventures coming up in the near future. You create your own experiences so be mindful of your intentions and actions and ensure that they are positive, productive and life affirming.

Angel Number 741 encourages you to continue to put your efforts towards living your truths and walking your spiritual path, safe in the knowledge that the angels are guiding, assisting, supporting and encouraging you every step of the way. Keep up the good work!

 

It makes sense!  How could I have not seen this before?

We are not customers. We are ALL working for Linden Lab !!!!

Edited by Rhonda Huntress
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19 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

If you add up all the possible attachment values (wearing just 1, plus 2, plus 3 ... and so on to 38) there are 741 possible combinations.

There's even more to it than that.

7 - 4 - 1. Subtract the 1 from the 4 and you get 3. Add the 1 to the 7 and you get 8. 38 again!

And not only that. 3+8 is 11 which of course rhymes with 7 and it's two ones. Divide the eight by two and you get 4. 7-4-1.

It all makes perfect sense.

 

19 minutes ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

We are not customers. We are ALL working for Linden Lab !!!!

Exactly. The number of attachments is a subtle mind control device to turn SL users into an unpaid (and paying even) work force for Linden Lab.

Edited by ChinRey
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On 7/27/2017 at 9:38 AM, Medhue Simoni said:

Best solution in this thread. :D

Meh. No, really, it's not, because it makes way too many assumptions that are just not realistic in most cases. In fact, when I'm bumping up against the limit, nearly all the items are: NoMod and/or Unrigged. My current look, pretty basic, uses 24 attachment points and NONE can be combined. SL already has a solution for people worried about complexity, and that is the max render complexity limit before it jellies. If you are worried about others using a lot of attachment points, simply lower your render limit.

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6 hours ago, Sharie Criss said:

 

Meh. No, really, it's not, because it makes way too many assumptions that are just not realistic in most cases. In fact, when I'm bumping up against the limit, nearly all the items are: NoMod and/or Unrigged. My current look, pretty basic, uses 24 attachment points and NONE can be combined. SL already has a solution for people worried about complexity, and that is the max render complexity limit before it jellies. If you are worried about others using a lot of attachment points, simply lower your render limit.

38, IMHO, is more than enough. For those reaching that limit and desperately wanting more, Whirly's suggestion is great. I'd also advise consumers to voice your frustrations directly to the creators. It also seems reasonable that creators will get smarter about how to bundle their packages. Ask creators that make whole outfits to combine them together, or allow you to with a version you can mod. It's probably also smart to limit your huds. Seems everything comes with a hud today. 

I love the jelly tool. That said, the jelly tool is not just a tool for me to keep you from destroying my SL, but also a tool to show you how much you are impacting everyone. If your avatar complexity is that high, then anyone that can actually see you, is paying a huge price just to see you, degrading both of your experiences together. I can understand if it is just you and your partner in the scene, but in a group you are just either causing everyone problems, or a generic jelly doll. What exactly is the point of being either of those?

Hopefully, creators will get more efficient, and we can all have our way, with little to no impact on each other. 

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2 hours ago, Medhue Simoni said:

38, IMHO, is more than enough. For those reaching that limit and desperately wanting more, Whirly's suggestion is great. I'd also advise consumers to voice your frustrations directly to the creators. It also seems reasonable that creators will get smarter about how to bundle their packages. Ask creators that make whole outfits to combine them together, or allow you to with a version you can mod. It's probably also smart to limit your huds. Seems everything comes with a hud today. 

I love the jelly tool. That said, the jelly tool is not just a tool for me to keep you from destroying my SL, but also a tool to show you how much you are impacting everyone. If your avatar complexity is that high, then anyone that can actually see you, is paying a huge price just to see you, degrading both of your experiences together. I can understand if it is just you and your partner in the scene, but in a group you are just either causing everyone problems, or a generic jelly doll. What exactly is the point of being either of those?

Hopefully, creators will get more efficient, and we can all have our way, with little to no impact on each other. 

I do agree. I encourage people to directly make dialogue with their favorite creators when they do see some area in content that could use improvement especially if they have taken the time to research their ideas to present to said creator.

Many times I do see the lament that it is simply a matter of limitation within SL and that is it a matter of 'amateur creators' not knowing better. I don't buy this at all. There are countless platforms (AAA online games for example) where it's creative team is absolutely not concerned in the least with end user impact. They are no better then,  just because they on a different tool set of creation, they simply don't care in the oversight to meet other priorities at the time. There are countless times I have contacted creators about environments assets that are set to collision thus causing a person to get stuck in said asset. It has always been remedied later because most in the field know that collisions in any platform can produce bad results if not properly executed or monitored. We get lag over time if items are physics and collision based. It's no different in other engines and platforms. I know plenty of so called amateurs in SL that do use better practices and solutions. 

I currently wear the Aesthetic mesh body and I am in regular contact with the Hydrogen when an issue or idea arises. Understand that the Aesthetic body is atleast 7 direct attach points (Upper body, Lower body, Left hand, Right hand , Left foot ,Right foot, Head, and Neck blender if so desired). the upper and lower body portions share a similar structure in texture face hierarchy as well (we are limited to 8 per mesh iirc). If one were to link the upper and lower body , there is the chance that it may then not work with the current Alpha and Color HUD that comes with the body , let alone the skin applier, there is a reason some attachments are set as separate attach pieces. Hydrogen has done a lot of work over time with this product in best optimizing it. If you are like me you wear the body with Tattoos in use but then that can restrict the use of a body hair (tattoo) because that layer slot has been filled. the solution for this then is to create a copy of the upper and lower body for body hair and then render all 4 total pieces non-scripted and then link to bring them back down to 2 pieces each or 1 if upper and lower are linked as one since both are rigged.

I noted that in other mesh bodies (particularly female mesh models) that they are generally 1 unit including hands and feet but not always including the head but yes even the head in some cases.

I do think there has to be a way to link said parts that are mod, atleast with a non-scripted full perm object even if rigged , to help reduce the attach points. Throw in rigged and it get a bit more involved when you take position and alignment with non rigged into account.

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9 hours ago, Medhue Simoni said:

but in a group you are just either causing everyone problems, or a generic jelly doll. What exactly is the point of being either of those?

Quote

Teaching Second Life users to care about other people's experience is as fruitless as teaching fish how to climb mountains.

(Traditional Ancient Old Chinese Word of Wisdom - poorly translated)

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Its would be good if at last the Visual and HUD attachments would have separate limit counting.

Edited by Venompapa

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On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 4:24 AM, ChinRey said:
On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 6:40 PM, Medhue Simoni said:

but in a group you are just either causing everyone problems, or a generic jelly doll. What exactly is the point of being either of those?

Quote

Teaching Second Life users to care about other people's experience is as fruitless as teaching fish how to climb mountains.

(Traditional Ancient Old Chinese Word of Wisdom - poorly translated)

I'm not sure. I mean, is not the point of dressing your avatar up to be seen by others? Well, if only half your avatar rezzes, or you are a jelly dolly, that defeats the whole point of wearing all that crap.

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8 minutes ago, Medhue Simoni said:

I'm not sure. I mean, is not the point of dressing your avatar up to be seen by others? Well, if only half your avatar rezzes, or you are a jelly dolly, that defeats the whole point of wearing all that crap.

Oh yes, I'm all with you there. My reply was about the futility of telling people who don't want to listen things they absolutely don't want to hear and as often as not don't even seem to be able to comprehend. ;)

 

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On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 10:18 PM, Hunter Stern said:

I currently wear the Aesthetic mesh body and I am in regular contact with the Hydrogen when an issue or idea arises. Understand that the Aesthetic body is atleast 7 direct attach points (Upper body, Lower body, Left hand, Right hand , Left foot ,Right foot, Head, and Neck blender if so desired). the upper and lower body portions share a similar structure in texture face hierarchy as well (we are limited to 8 per mesh iirc). If one were to link the upper and lower body , there is the chance that it may then not work with the current Alpha and Color HUD that comes with the body , let alone the skin applier, there is a reason some attachments are set as separate attach pieces. Hydrogen has done a lot of work over time with this product in best optimizing it. If you are like me you wear the body with Tattoos in use but then that can restrict the use of a body hair (tattoo) because that layer slot has been filled. the solution for this then is to create a copy of the upper and lower body for body hair and then render all 4 total pieces non-scripted and then link to bring them back down to 2 pieces each or 1 if upper and lower are linked as one since both are rigged.

I noted that in other mesh bodies (particularly female mesh models) that they are generally 1 unit including hands and feet but not always including the head but yes even the head in some cases.

I do think there has to be a way to link said parts that are mod, atleast with a non-scripted full perm object even if rigged , to help reduce the attach points. Throw in rigged and it get a bit more involved when you take position and alignment with non rigged into account.

As we speak, LL is working on a mesh avatar texture baking system, built from the same 1 used on the default avatar. Now, of course, I do not expect creators to use this baking system like the default avatar, but find their own ways to use the baking system to their, and their customers benefit. So, every mesh on your avatar could potentially have many different layers for the customers to mix and match with. This baking system will almost eliminate the need to layer up avatars like onions.

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6 hours ago, Medhue Simoni said:

I'm not sure. I mean, is not the point of dressing your avatar up to be seen by others? Well, if only half your avatar rezzes, or you are a jelly dolly, that defeats the whole point of wearing all that crap.

Your problem is that you automatically assume anybody running out of attachment points MUST be some 'seen by nobody' jellydoll with an rci of a million or 2, in which you are of course, completely wrong. This isn't a discussion of rci, it's a discussion of not having enough attachment points to wear the 'unrigged' or 'no mod' or 'rigged and mod but scripted in such a way that cross linking will destroy it' item that make their avatars work.

Imagine if some clueless clown told you that you needed to learn to live with a bento elephant that didn't have a trunk, because 'more attachment points makes you invisible crap'. 

That's basically what you are saying to others who wear avatars you simply do not comprehend.
 

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