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JoelMahla

Classic skin with mesh or bento avatar

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I think I already can guess what the answer to my question will be but here goes, Can a classic skin be used with a mesh or bento avatar to be able to use all the new bones etc bento gives etc I'm guessing no but figured I'd ask

Thanks for any responces

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There would need to be an "applier" for the classic skin to work with a mesh body. Also, even if you have an applier AND the legacy skin to use with a "classic" non mesh head, there is still a line at the neck under many lighting conditions. I am guessing it is because the texture acts differently on a legacy body and a mesh body, reflecting the light in a different manner.  

 

So the best bet is to be all mesh and get an applier for the mesh body and head that you choose. 

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just a little addition:

 

there is no mesh AND a bento avatar, both are mesh... and even more confusing perhaps... also the standard avatar is mesh.

 

big mistake is think that bento is a kind of object, and it isn't. It's the invisible avatar structure that is implemented at ALL second life avatars.

But... only new developed items with this feature worked in it, will show the result.

Mesh avatars can

animations can

 

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Poor usage of the word avatar on my part, though I believe most people will think of them as avatars

from the reading I've done trying to decide if I wanted to go mesh or bento I know that bento is more bones and attachment points in the avatar structure

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JoelMahla wrote: if I wanted to go mesh or bento I know that bento is more bones and attachment points in the avatar structure

no you still mix it :) ... it's not bento OR mesh

its mesh with bento structure or standard mesh,(and still there is also the standard avatar)

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Project Bento is not an object and nothing you can touch or see. LL upgraded the bone structure of avatars in Second Life, allowing for a more realistic movement of certain mesh attachments, which is especially interesting, for hands, heads, wings and tails. There are and will be an increasing number of mesh products from those item categories, that will make use of the additional bones Bento now provides.

So your decision is not between mesh or bento, but between going mesh at all or not and between buying something made before bento or waiting for items made with the options of Bento in mind. The last question is of course only relevant if the mesh object benefits significantly from Bento.

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Alwin, I do understand that it is all mesh but what I was trying to say in my first reply to you was that to most people in second life they will see them as being different, when you can go to a store and buy a mesh body/shape etc and a bento head they will be seen as being different even though they are not

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Syo

Thats what I'm trying to decide, to go all mesh or stay with my current avatar, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about mesh and the new bento bones to figure out all my options, like if I could use my current skin etc to keep my "face" or if I need to find a mesh or bento enabled head that is close to how I look now and try to change it.

I've got favorite outfits that I wear all the time and I'm trying to figure outr what my options are there as well, will these classic body outfits work with a newer mesh body or if there will be an omega applier that will work to make classic clothes fit or if I would need to try contacting the creators of the clothes to see if they have mesh versions

Thank You for your responce

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JoelMahla wrote:

Syo

Thats what I'm trying to decide, to go all mesh or stay with my current avatar, I'm trying to learn as much as I can about mesh and the new bento bones to figure out all my options, like if I could use my current skin etc to keep my "face" or if I need to find a mesh or bento enabled head that is close to how I look now and try to change it.

I've got favorite outfits that I wear all the time and I'm trying to figure outr what my options are there as well, will these classic body outfits work with a newer mesh body or if there will be an omega applier that will work to make classic clothes fit or if I would need to try contacting the creators of the clothes to see if they have mesh versions

Thank You for your responce

I begin with your last part of the question, outfits:

Blue jeans and an open jeans shirt with t-shirt under is not hard to find new replacements for.  You have to consider if it is worth trying to copy over just these clothes that you have worn for years, instead of buying new clothes in a similar style. (*)

If the creator is still in SL, he can make you custom appliers. An applier will transfer the texture of classic layers to the mesh avatar. This will give you the same tight fitting clothes as you are used to from your classic avatar. This does not require much work. Even I have made Omega appliers, and I detest working on such things. The creator can also use a mesh pants model and apply the texture to it.

If the creator has left SL, is it still possible to get the texture, it is in the cache stored on your computer. But here we are in muddy water. So let us just leave that option. Shopping can be fun, and you don't have to do everything at once. Mesh clothes has really improved the look of avatars in SL. One pair of blue jeans and make sure they come with a tucked version so they will fit into the cowboy boots.

 

For your new avatar, I would say wait until there is released some Bento avatars for men. For the body, you will wait until a release of a body with Bento hands. I know that one of the acknowledged body designers, Siddean Munro of Slink, will work on Bento in January and release new versions of her bodies and hands. There are four male mesh avatars that I trust and recommend: First Slink Physique male, Absolut Creations Adam, and Signature Gianni. These 3 have the "normal" male body, and then there is Niramyth Aesthetic that is very muscular.

You should bookmark the blog http://meshbodyaddicts.com they post news about all bodies and heads in mesh. 

There are not many male mesh heads, and you will want to find a mesh head that is Omega compatible - this gives you the most skins to use for it. You can try to find your current skin creator and see if he has appliers for sale.

It must also be Bento rigged, so it can use Bento animations.

I will suggest that you look at your wardrobe, browse male apparel on the Marketplace, buy demos and see if you find mesh outfits that you like. Starting with a demo for these jeans? https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Denim-Jeans-Classic-Rough-Lapointe-BastChild-Jeans/5664701 and a demo of this: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Denim-Long-Sleeve-Shirt-w-T-shirt-Ranger-FatPack-Aesthetic-Slink-Standard-Sizes-Mens-Lapointe-BastChild/10274388

It is a place to start. This designer has so many sizes for his clothes, that you will be able to use them with a human mesh avatar. 

Maybe the best would be to use updated mesh clothes and Bento male mesh hands? 

 

(*) (I found a video of Joel Mahla from 2013, where you wear the blue jeans outfit) :matte-motes-big-grin-wink:

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Marianne

Thank you for your helpful responce, I already had the mesh body addicts site bookmarked :smileyhappy: I also went and picked up the demo versions of the jeans and shirt so I have clothes to try when I try a new avatar

I've been google search and watching youtube videos to learn as much about mesh and bento as I canso I have some idea what I'm looking for instead of stumbling blind

the blue jeans outfit is one I'd want to keep using along with my favorite the gentry Night Ryder (   https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/The-Gentry-Night-Ryder/3864510  ) the large majority of clothing in my inventory came from freebie shops and is no big loss if there is no way to use it with mesh and other Items I know I don't want to lose

Again Thank You For Your help

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The only way to use this outfit on a mesh avatar is to make Omega appliers with the textures. The creator can do this for you, if he agrees to it. You will probably pay some for the work, unless he already updated it with appliers. The prim parts, like collar, sleeves, pant cuffs and lower jacket part, can be added to the avatar body and edited in place.

Personally I find this to be an inferior solution to the mesh garment in one piece. The jacket in particular, does not look so good when it is skin tight. Under is shown my alt with two outfits from the same creator - Deadwool - but the left one is mesh and the right and middle is a pre-mesh outfit. All the prim parts is hard to match up seamless, and there can be a color difference in different lightning, since the texture is applied to two different parts. The silhouette is cleaner, no bulks from arm muscles and delts.The collar and lapels is merged in the outfit and there is no work with editing to match it up, the vest is layered over the shirt, not painted on. But more important for me, is that the jacked attachment is not rigged, and will not follow and bend when sitting, dancing and other movements.

Tl.dr:

Since you are interested in upgrading your avatar, and have only a pair of outfits that you want to keep, I would have upgraded the clothes. We have discussed if a mesh body and head is necessary here on the forums before, and most of us agree that if you wear clothes, a mesh body under is just complicating the dressing process, and adding to ARC without beeing visible. Mesh bodies is more for the beach and bed, or for people who dance in clubs or work as models. And for photographers and bloggers.

 

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Marianne

Thank you again for your reply, sadly it's more the a couple of outfits I'd want to be able to use, I have 5 or 6 from The Gentry and a couple of others in his store I wouldn't mind owning. Basicly it's any outfit I have bought thats good quality, I've sent an IM to Sheen Revnik from The Gentry asking if he had mesh versions of his outfits but have not heard back yet and I'll have to look through my order history to find the creators of other outfits I want to keep and do the same.

In a perfect Second Life world mesh bodies etc would come with buildt in appliers etc to make classic outfits fit or creators could work with an applier maker to make appliers for their outfits if the couldn't do it themselves

The big thing that is holding me back from moving to a mesh body and a bento head, hands and feet (not sure if there are or will be bento feet) is that I still have not found one that looks like my current face etc

Thanks again for your reply

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The chance of you finding a face that looks like your current one are about 1 in a million. How your face looks right is determined by the shape sliders and the skin you are wearing. Meaning you will have to start rebuilding the shape/face once you get the mesh head. Even if you can use your current skin it will not look the same, "out of the box".

I agree that things should and could be much simpler when it comes to mesh bodies. But for now we have to adjust to what is possible and available.

Another thing that comes to mind when I read your posts is to maybe not start using a mesh body until you find a wardrobe that you can use with a mesh avatar. Look for outfits that suit your style, I am sure that is possible when you invest some time in that. If it is a money thing, if you are not able or willing to buy mesh outfits I would not go for a mesh body in the 1st place as it is just very expensive if you want to do it right.

 

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There are one mesh male head released now, the Absolut creations "Adam".

I copy from a reply in another thread:

-------------------------------------------------------

Absolut creations has updated the Adam head with bento for free!!

This was so generous. It is still no other animations than blinking eyes, but I am sure they will release a HUD for it, the female head is also updated to Bento for free, and one HUD with animations is released for it. So I am sure animations for the male head is a work in progress. The animations will not be free, but the price is not horrible. The female animations cost 450 L. We are warned that the animations will not look the same when we change the sliders. They are rigged to the original face.

I started with the included Bento shape and will change the body later.

I really like the Bento version of Adam. I didn't like the too big and wide eyes in the older version. I made them smaller, narrower and closer. The face shape with the rounder lower head/jaw is also really nice imho. The nose and mouth can need more work. I made one with narrower nose, one with wider nose and mouth. It is the skin too, you can do only so much with the skin shading. Work in progress.

Original Adam head to the lest, two Bento versions to the right.

Please don't look at the eyes in the old head... I didn't see that they were off. I adjusted the size and placement in the new head shape too.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ears is not coming with the head. The heads ears can be turned off, so we can use other ears.

So there is room for some adjustments in a Bento head.

This avatar has Adam head, Slink male body and relaxed hands under the suit. The neck fit is really good, but the skin applier is the same for head hands and body. This is necessary to achieve the best match.

The Adam head has also a very nice fit with the classic SL shape without an attached mesh body.

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JoelMahla wrote:

Thats what I'm trying to decide, to go all mesh or stay with my current avatar,

Why choose when you can have them both? A mesh body or a mesh head is basically just a very fancy piece of mesh clothing you wear. You can put them on or take them off whenever you like and depending on whether they work with a particuar outfit and/or in a particular setting or not.

 


JoelMahla wrote:

I've got favorite outfits that I wear all the time and I'm trying to figure outr what my options are there as well, will these classic body outfits work with a newer mesh body or if there will be an omega applier that will work to make classic clothes fit or if I would need to try contacting the creators of the clothes to see if they have mesh versions

A piece of classic system clothing is essentially a texture you add to the classic body. You can add the same texture (with a texturing HUD - that's what an applier really is) to a mesh body if, and only if, you actually have access to that texture. Unfortunately usually only the creator has access to the texture used and few of them are willing to spend time and effort setting up appliers for their old outfits.

Fitted and rigged mesh clothing intended for a classic avatar may or may not fit a mesh body. Hard to say until you've tried a specific combination.

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Alwin is being picky about language and concerned that you understand. Things get messy when you don't.

To keep your current facial appearance is going to take some work. I doubt you will find one that looks like your current avatar. Because of that problem I use an all-but-head-mesh-avatar. I've kept my classic head.

The classic avatar mesh is rendered differently than the new mesh avatars. It is a matter of how the viewer is designed and there is nothing to be done about it. Mesh things, like mesh body, feet, hands, and head and houses and stuff all run through the same render process. To be precise, attachments are rendered as any other prim in SL is rendered. But, classic avatars use a different render process. But, that is not necessarily a problem. The skin I have is for classic and mesh. So, the neck seam when properly sized is almost invisible. 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nalates/31105122061/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nalates/31183435936/in/dateposted-public/

There are 'blenders' to help match mesh body skin to classic body hands,heads, feet or vice-versa.

There is a problem if you use body sheen or drops. Those are a function of mesh bodies that use SL materials. Something that cannot be done with classic skin. So, at that point the difference between body and head is more apparent.

I built my own shape and look long ago. I would like to avoid having to change. My look has evolved as I learned more about porportions and working with SL. So, I plan to find a Bento head that is close to my current appearance. then I'll modify shape to get as close as possible to my current look.

I've learned as I upgraded skin that slapping a new skin on my face does not leave me looking like the same person. With each new skin I have to change shape to get back to something near my previous appearance.

I have images of my self from years past and stick those on a prim, which I park beside my avatar. I wear the new skin and start adjusting shape to get my appearance close to what I want. I tweat on the appearance over time. I think in any picture since 2013 you would recognize the avatar as being the same. That is the era when I changed skin a couple of times. Before 2013 the skin I used made my cheeks look puffier.

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ChinRey

Thank You for your reply, it's possible I'll stick with my classic body and use a mesh head and hands if I find one close to my current look

Your comment "Unfortunately usually only the creator has access to the texture used and few of them are willing to spend time and effort setting up appliers for their old outfits." brings up something I guess I'll never understand, Why would a creator not want to make more money, if they can make a mesh version of a classic outfit they made and sell it to the people using mesh that like the outfit but cant use the classic one or make an applier so the owner of one of their classic outfits can keep using it with a mesh body and not find another creator to give their lindens.

Something I've learned is to never stop learning so if I can add to what I already know I will

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Nalates

Thank You for your reply

I knew going into this that I was going to have to find a "face" that was close to my current look and trying to make it look like me and you've shown me what is possible Thank You

 

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JoelMahla wrote:

ChinRey

Your comment "Unfortunately usually only the creator has access to the texture used and few of them are willing to spend time and effort setting up appliers for their old outfits." brings up something I guess I'll never understand, Why would a creator not want to make more money, if they can make a mesh version of a classic outfit they made and sell it to the people using mesh that like the outfit but cant use the classic one or make an applier so the owner of one of their classic outfits can keep using it with a mesh body and not find another creator to give their lindens.

Different makers have different reasons but I think the most common one goes something like this: Since it's an old work, you almost certainly don't have the textures in your inventory anymore, you've either boxed it up somewhere or you may even have deleted it. So first you'll have to actually find the texture - or even reupload it. Then you have to make those appliers of course and that takes a little bit of time, even if you're sensible enough to limit it to Omega and not any product specific appliers. Then you have to update the vendor and MP posters, the descriptions etc. etc.

The only thing that is easy to make in Second Life, is mistakes and this is even more true than usual once the Marketplace is involved (isn't there even a paragraph in the TOS stating that we're not allowed to make things easy?) so even a seemingly simple task like this may well take close to an hour, maybe even more.

And then, well maybe you sell one or two of the appliers, most likely you won't sell anything at all and people certainly aren't wiling to pay much for an update to an old product. It's better to spend your time making something new, find a brand new texture on the internet and add it to a brand new mesh template you bought on MP and ... well most likely you won't make much money that way either (I've heard rumours that most listings on MP never ever sell anything at all...) but at least you get a warm fuzzy feeling you're being creative somehow.

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ChinRey

I'm not doubting your wrong and thats why most creators won't update an old product but it makes no sense to me, I know if the creator of my favorite outfit from The Gentry Night Ryder were to make and updated mesh version of it and an applier version to make the old one usable with mesh I would be getting at least one of them if not both depending on how both of the new versions looked, if the new mesh version looked better then the old classic version I'd be more likely to spend the lindens to buy that one even if I'd already gotten the applierand I have several outfits from the gentry but thats just me

Thank you for replying

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I just keep the topic warm and tell you that a new male mesh head for Bento is coming: https://www.flickr.com/photos/53013200@N04/31880032071/

The head is shown in three different skins, but it is also editable. I have not demo'ed yet, but if it is as the female head, there will be possible to change facial features a lot. Then there is the skin, of course. Men does not change looks as often, so when they want to update, they find that there is not much content made for them. Maybe more men should adapt the thought that different styles is good. Show some creator love and change old prim hair to mesh... try on new clothes... see if a new more detailed skin can be you.

Not chiding the OP here, males in general. Sometimes I think females with male alts keep the male apparel and apparance market alive.

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Marianne

Thanks for sharing the pictures of the Daniel bento head, it looks very nice

Yes I know I'm not doing my part for the male SL market but does it count that I buy my partner several dresses over the course of the year for the holiday?   :matte-motes-wink-tongue: just kidding :)

Maybe if we guys did buy more clothes etc we'd have more bento heads released for us already or creators would be more likely to "upgrade" older outfits to work with current bodies, Something for me to think about

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Marianne Little wrote:.

 Sometimes I think females with male alts keep the male apparel and apparance market alive.

not so sure about that... ánd think you know around 1 on 5 women in sl is man in rl... so in that market 20% is taken by males.

And wouldn't the female alts bring the guys also to the idea to go shop?

 

Could also be other way round... my male(s) normally walk around in the newer stuff, while my fem get the sales and groupgifts ;)

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