Does anyone here in Second Life still uses the classic avatar even after 4 years or more?

[Rhonda Huntress]

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entity0x wrote:

I still use the classic avatar shape at least,

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Yeah, a shape is a shape is a shape.  It does not matter if you use a system body or a mesh body they both use the same shape to adjust proportions.

 

[ChinRey]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Avoiding 'freakish proportions' is more about knowing what to do with shape dials. See my guide in my sig links..

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Wow, great work! Thank you Pussycat.

One thing though...

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Pussycat Catnap wrote (in her blog):

I could be wrong, but I’m going to just guess that the average motion capture studio hires human dancers and not the zoo crew.

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Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support such an outrageous assumption?

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Don't presume a system avatar / clothes will be less (or more) lag - this is going to depend on the whole outfit composition you go in for.

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A system avatar will always be less laggy because it's a part of any avatar anyway and it only has four textures with a max reslolution of 512x512 (the eyer texture may - and should - be even lower res). Anything you add on top of that will add to the total load of course but with a little bit of care, that extra load can be negligible.

[ChinRey]

I'm not sure if I should post this but...

I was going about my business as usual wearing a popular brand mesh body and some shabby but decent clothing when one of my tenants sent me this picture of my avatar (I had to censor it a bit for this forum):

What happened was that parts of my mesh body's clothes layer that looked perfectly fine in my viewer, failed to render on his computer, revealing the skin layer underneath,

This is not unusual, mesh clothing and mesh body parts fail to render all the time. If you wear any kind of fitted mesh, sooner or later (most likely sooner) somebody will see parts of your avatar that you believe are fully covered and you won't know about it. It's not a possibility, it's a certainty.

Now, I'm not a prude and it's my avatar anyway, not me. But if such things bother you, do not wear a mesh body in public and do not wear mesh clothing unless you have your avatar well covered with good old system clothing underneath it.

Of course, if you fancy appering as a person with hands and/or feet cut off, or as a severed head floating in the air or the latest fashion - a brain and two eyes floating above a headless body, then you can just use alphas. It won't be a pretty sight but at least you'll be decent.

[Penny Patton]

I don't, I switched to a mesh body years ago, but I have friends who still use the default avatar, and with good reason.

The default SL avatar body is the most widely supported body in SL. It is the easiest to shop for, and has the most options. For all its flaws, that's not likely to ever change unless LL gets wise and releases an improved avatar set to become the new default.

[Pamela Galli]

Why is it that users and creators can easily and accurately predict the negative consequences of introducing mesh and mesh bodies, and LL cannot? 

It is.not like there was ever any possibility that ppl woul not flood the grid with ripped mesh, or that there could be a standard body size. Anyone could see it. Well, not anyone, evidently, because there were lots who were clapping hands and jumping up and down over the announcement mesh was coming. 

Be careful what you wish for.

[Penny Patton]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Why is it that users and creators can easily and accurately predict the negative consequences of introducing mesh and mesh bodies, and LL cannot? 

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One of SL's biggest problems is that LL has no Creative Director. They do not hire anyone with the skills and perspective to see these problems before they dive headfirst into them. Thier philosophy has always been "we don't create content, the users do, so we don't need to hire creators". The problem with that is a company cannot create software if no one in their organization knows how that software is used.

That's why game developers hire gamers, and the companies behind creative software hire  artists who use their software.

LL, for the most part, only hires programmers. When they do hire residents and content creators it's never for their feedback on the software.

 

This is why LL initially resisted giving us rigged mesh at all. Content creators were begging for it but the Lindens didn't expect it would see much use. When they did finally implement it, they did so in a broken, extremely limited way forcing them to completely redo rigged mesh as "fitmesh". The Linden in charge of bringing us fitmesh was very public about his opinion that fitmesh was a waste of time and that people wouldn't use it.

LL also resisted avatar alpha masks for nearly ten years. We were forced to use "invisiprims" before then, and invisiprims weren't even officially supported, they were a glitch.

This is why SL uses "blended" alpha textures as a default even though anyone with experience in videogame design will tell you that blended alpha should be avoided whenever possible due to the perofrmance hit and rendering issues it causes. SL supported "masked" alpha, the preferred format for realtime rendering,  from day one, Linden plants and the avatar mesh itself use masked alpha, but content creators were not allowed to use it in their creations until LL rolled out the materials update a couple of years ago.

 

 So many of SL's problems could be solved just by LL hiring a Creative Director and actually using thier input in developing the tools and features we use. Instead, LL stumbles around making blind guesses.

[ChinRey]

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Penny Patton wrote:

LL, for the most part, only hires programmers. When they do hire residents and content creators it's never for their feedback on the software.

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That is a truth with some modifications. The original Linden Lab crew included Eric Call and Cory Onderjika, two very skilled content creators, and they also had Ryan who worked mainly with administration but was also a very keen and talented amataur builder. It didn't take long before LL had strengthened their work force with other skilled content creators like Albedo, Xenon and Michael and LL took content creation very seriously the first few years.

But then most of them left and they weren't replaced. Eric and Cory may have been the biggest losses here, they had been in it right from Day 1 so their words must have counted for a lot. It may not be a coincidence that the problems we see in SL today started to visibly accumulate around the time they quit.

I think Michael actually was the only one working with content creation at LL for a while until Patch joined the team and they founded LLDPW. That meant LL had a good work force to do the building needed but these guys weren't heard when decisions were made and that may have been the biggest mistake LL ever made.

They have learned that lesson now. I'm not sure but I get the feeling Patch has been given wider responsibilities, better matching his actual qualifications, recently and if I'm right, that's a very good sign. A much clearer sign that things have changed is how LL has tried to involve experienced content creators in recent development programs, Bento is perhaps the best example here. They haven't quite figured out how to do it yet but they are trying and they are getting better.

[Penny Patton]

@ChinRey

Yeah, exactly. When LL has hired content creators, and they have hired some very skilled people over the years, it was almost exclusively for them to create content, such as public works builds, Welcome/Tutorial areas, Linden Homes, etcetera. Or residents were hired in some non-creation related capacity, but they were not hired to contribute to the development of the tool set or the user experience beyond that scope.

Which is a tragedy, since some of the people you mentioned could have helped LL in avoiding many issues that continue to haunt SL to this day, if LL had only sought out their expertise and feedback.

 

@entity0x

Totally. LL doesn't seem to understand the concept of standards at all, or why they were critical to SL's early success. Being able to create a piece of avatar content and have it work with any and all avatars was great and LL broke that. They don't seem to understand why this is a problem.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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ChinRey wrote:

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Pussycat Catnap wrote (in her blog):

I could be wrong, but I’m going to just guess that the average motion capture studio hires human dancers and not the zoo crew.

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Do you have

any

evidence whatsoever to support such an outrageous assumption?

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Well...

If you're doing motion capture it is kind of hard to hire the lemurs in the local zoo, or the aliens at Area 52. But getting a few actors is pretty easy. Some brands, like Humanoid - even film their motion capture actors so you can see who they hired.

Sure - some people will claim yo have used motion capture when they really just used the posing dials in Poser and are lying - but its actually pretty hard to animate like that... and unless you have seriously good skills it shows and looks as bad as the 'default no AO' animations Linden Lab puts on everyone.

I'm a little curious to how you could think this outrageous? Do you think its more likely people hire animals from your local zoo?

 

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ChinRey wrote:

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

Don't presume a system avatar / clothes will be less (or more) lag - this is going to depend on the whole outfit composition you go in for.

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A system avatar will always be less laggy because it's a part of any avatar anyway and it only has four textures with a max reslolution of 512x512 (the eyer texture may - and should - be even lower res). Anything you add on top of that will add to the total load of course but with a little bit of care, that extra load can be negligible.

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System avatars and textures can be burdensome. But the typical look of a person on a system avatar also often couples it with things like flexi hair - which is the most laggy thing you can do in SL at present. So I was speaking more about the whole package. As noted: "the whole outfit composition".

 

[ChinRey]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

I'm a little curious to how you could think this outrageous? Do you think its more likely people hire animals from your local zoo?

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Sorry, that was actually supposed to be a joke.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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ChinRey wrote:

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

I'm a little curious to how you could think this outrageous? Do you think its more likely people hire animals from your local zoo?

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Sorry, that was actually supposed to be a joke.

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Oh ok and oops. :matte-motes-bashful:

I'm kind of used to getting random flyby hostile attacks on the forums - so I jump to the conclusion that one is coming often, when it might not be... (which probably helps keep them coming... kind of a catch-22) :matte-motes-agape:

 

[AmberToy]

I still use classic body, but I own a lot of mesh clothes that work with classic. Skirts, coats, hair, and shoes/boots being the biggest chunk of mesh I own.  I am not a fan of mesh undies and bikinis as they tend to hover over my shape. I guess the biggest reasons I still use the classic shape is because I own so much classic layer stuff and I worked so hard on my shape.  I guess I get ok results with classic shape.  My partner also still uses classic she is in the bottom pic in black. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by AmberToy

[Kytteh Wytchwood]

I own 8 mesh bodies. I do like to wear the classic avatar with older items I have in my inventory but I will wear mesh hair. I loathe the laggy, wavy, bad textured, choppy flexi hairs.  I do it for fun and because people take their avatars so seriously. Like they forgot where their avatar came from. I enjoy going to clubs looking like that and then people assuming I can't afford a full mesh avatar. Then I leave and come back to the same club, as a full mesh avatar. It's interesting to get people's reactions. I own a few catwa bento heads, an old Catwa static head, few Akeruka heads, LAQ Heads, one Lelutka head, old Slink Visage head. I also have the kemono and the M3 Venus head. It's fun to dress up when I use my mesh avis. It's easy to switch outfits because I save outfits. Just right click replace and voila!

If you are wanting to try a mesh body but you want to stay as close to the classic look, the best body is Slink Physique. Like, you don't see much of a difference except for the smooth wrists, ankles and curves. And the cool thing about Slink, you can choose which hands and feet you want. I have all their hands, the mesh pack before bento, the Slink Dynamic full pack, and all their feet. My favorite Slink hands are the Casual and my fave Slink feet are the Kitten. Kitten is in between the flat and mid foot.

Another body to try that isn't exaggerated and fits close to the Classic look is the Tonic Fine. I own the Tonic Curvy and i demo'ed the Tonic Fine and it's a very beautiful fitmesh body. It's the first fitmesh body to have natural breasts. No torpedo breasts here. No matter the size, they always have a natural gravity to them. And the feet fits with Slink High shoes. Works with Omega appliers. 

One user in this thread said they cover their entire body, so they feel you wouldn't be able to see their shape. With a Classic, your shape IS covered with the sculpty you wear and if you wear standard mesh. With a fitmesh body, when you wear fitmesh clothing, it conforms to your shape like a glove. It moves with your body, unlike standard mesh which is stiff. And standard mesh shapes your buttocks and breasts while fitmesh goes along the curves of the butt size and breast size you have with the shape sliders.

Like others have stated, proportions depend on how you edited the shape sliders. The mesh body itself does not create bad proportions. In fact, a fitmesh body allows you to further customize it than with a Classic, you have to stop at a certain point or it becomes too jagged looking. When it comes to breasts in a fitmesh body, you no longer have to stay at a small breast size to avoid the square looking breasts. The breasts will always have a nice curve, no matter the size. 

Just like in any game, you have to do a lot of reading to understand how to use the game. It's not hard unless you make it hard by not trying, reading, and applying what you learned.

There is also this active forum besides fashion in-world groups that can help you to master the world of fitmesh, clothing appliers, fitmesh clothing and so forth. 

There are jobs where you can earn Lindens to afford your clothes. Ask the stores if they have upgraded to appliers for your favorite clothing, tattoos, and cosmetics.

All you have to do is try and ask for help. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Kytteh Wytchwood

[Zeta Vandyke]

Since this topic originates from 2016, normally its not relevant anymore. In this case though, I am very curious about the people who in 2016 said "no mesh for me" are still without mesh now in 2018 or maybe have changed their opinion?

[Fionalein]

things have not changed, unless you go to a beach mesh hands feet and bento head would be far than enough - if you don't wear high heels you can even skip the feet... still tech illiaterate folks like to wear their full alphaed out mesh bodies below their closed suits...

[Claireschen Hesten]

In 2016 a mesh body wasn't even on my radar in 2017 as i was getting back in to checking out shopping events i could wander round and there would be bo diddly for system Av's i think it was the anniversary round of C88 last year i started thinking i need to go mesh as i was looking round and as usual there was zero system Av stuff but many things i would have bought if there had been system options included. Later that year i was able to get a body, if the system Av ever made a resurgence i wouldn't go back as the mesh clothing for system Av's was always more miss than hit as to whether it fitted me. Of my Human alts i have one that's mesh and one that will probably remain system forever despite having both the L$1 eBody's

[Nalates Urriah]

From this thread we get a good idea of how things in SL change.

The Bakes On Mesh is going to be an interesting addition. Many think it will take us back to a classic/system style of dress. Many are counting on being able to wear old system clothes on their new mesh body.

There is the idea mesh bodies will change. The onion skin bodies we use now will change from 4+/- layers to 1 or 2 layers. Appliers will vanish.

I doubt many of these things. For instance my GA.EG mesh head has a makeup HUD I love. I never had this kind of control with my classic head. I'm really not willing to give it up.

Take eyeshadow. With classic I could add it. With mesh I can set the transparency, glow, bright, shiny, and add color... 

I'm not going back to limited classic style makeup.

[ChinRey]

23 hours ago, Zeta Vandyke said:

Since this topic originates from 2016, normally its not relevant anymore. In this case though, I am very curious about the people who in 2016 said "no mesh for me" are still without mesh now in 2018 or maybe have changed their opinion?

I've become far more sceptical to mesh avatars since Optimo and Beq discovered the fitmesh LoD bug but I still use mesh bodies for most of my alts most of the time. Not all of them need it, it depends a lot of what kind of look I'm going for.

When it comes to clothing, I try to put together outfits that look good and don't worry much whether the clothes are fitted mesh or applier ones. I do end up using far more applier clothing than fitted mesh in SL though. On the hypergrid applier clothing isn't an option since none of the legal mesh bodies there come with clothes layers.

I do not use mesh heads ever but that's mainly because they are butt ugly. I might change my mind if somebody came up with one that actually looked better than the system avatar.

I do not use fitted mesh hair and I can't imagine I ever will since I prefer to use something that at least has some resemblance to RL hair not only on pictures but in-world too.

I know how to resize and reposition jewelry and such so usually I see no point in having them as fitted mesh. There are some exceptions and I do use fitted mes shoes a lot, mainly because that's what you can find on the market today.

I try to avoid crowded places. Having my screen filled up with disjointed body parts and jellydoll shapes isn't an enjoyable experience so I rather stay home. It's hardly a big sacrifice. Dances used to be fun but that was long ago and I started to avoid big shopping events long before fitmesh arrived anyway. I still enjoy visiting beaches but they are never a problem. Even if the sim is filled to capacity, there are always some quiet spots where I can cam away from the ugliness and enjoy the scene. The only crowded place I really miss, is the weekly "Show and Tell" at Builders Brewery.

Sometimes I can't use fitted mesh at all. Some of my friends have even lower spec computers than me and it would be really rude of me to wear fitted mesh when I'm with them. With one of my friends there's no choice at all, her computer is hard enough pushed in SL it crashes the moment it has to deal with a mesh body.

And of course, I'm not stupid enough to wear a mesh body when I'm playing some kind of high speed action game. That's not a problem at all. It's not as if I have time to worry about how smooth my avatar's boobs are when I'm busy killing zombies or collecting crystals or zooming across sims at full throttle.

Edited June 30, 2018 by ChinRey

[Chic Aeon]

One of the biggest changes in my mind is that it is getting almost impossible to get good, new, up to date, clothes if you have a system body. Hence my alts now have mesh bodies. Even most of the free items are mesh now. 

Things are also much cheaper with eBody with two free bodies and altamura with free full avatars or heads now and then. Hence, really no reason NOT to have a mesh avatar.

That being said, I never got a Bento head and I am just fine with my old Letluka. Some of the reasons are listed in the older part of this thread. 

I too am interested if people changed their minds. And TMP is gone but for the spam I keep getting even though I blocked the delivery server (sigh). 

 

 

[Menion Azalee]

On 12/4/2016 at 4:49 PM, Marcus Hancroft said:

I have had a legacy avatar since I was born in SL in 2008.  There are many reasons.  I have spent literally hundreds of dollars over the years on clothing and accessories for my avatar, and I am loathe to give them all up.  Secondly, I have also looked into the mesh avatars and they are all exceedingly expensive!  TMP avatars are over L$13,000 to get the full package!!  That's over $50,00USD!  Not everybody can afford that or wants to spend that much on their avatar all at once.  I don't want to spend that much.

Thirdly, and since I am in the D/s scene, the alpha layers and mesh attachments are very difficult to discern when looking through a collar or ring menu.  I don't want one of my subs wearing a mesh body.

Fourthly, the male mesh bodies are most times, WAY out of porportion! (this is the reason I chose TMP)  Most of them look like they have "moobs" and I'm not interested in having man boobs.  

So, for now, I will stick with my legacy avatar.  I get told all the time how sexy I look.  I see no reason to start all over again with a new avatar now.  

I also have a Classic Avi and I have looked at mesh avatars and ummm the thousands of lindens they want are just to way out there and then you have to buy your head, hands, feet and other stuff separately it's just not worth it . After lamenting about going mesh, screw it...i am staying classic!

[Klytyna]

4 minutes ago, Menion Azalee said:

I also have a Classic Avi and I have looked at mesh avatars and ummm the thousands of lindens they want are just to way out there and then you have to buy your head, hands, feet and other stuff separately it's just not worth it . After lamenting about going mesh, screw it...i am staying classic!

Back in 2012, I often saw people in "system avatars" with a clothing set and attachments, that cost more than L$8,000.

Today, you can have a well known and well supported brand of female mesh body, and a bento head, for under L$3,300 including hands and feet, and have several outfits to wear on it, as free gifts and special offers.

If you WANT to stay in a system avatar, do so, but claiming that the "thousands of lindens" you pay for mesh bodies is a deterrent compared to the "thousands of lindens" you pay for a "decent" system avi, is foolish.

Often the reality is more likely to be "I paid *cough* linden for this shape and *cough* linden for this skin back in 2007 when they were state of the art, and just because they look like crap now compared to new stuff is no reason to pay *cough* linden to update"

I would't be caught DEAD wearing those expensive sculpty & prim two part thighboots I had on back in 2012, not today. They were the dog's danglies back then and not cheap, but today? I can get better looking boots for lower prices, in mesh.

The same applies to skins, I wouldn't be seen dead in a 2006 skin, even if I was still wearing a system avi, and not just a system head.

Sometimes you just need to step back and say "Damn, this old stuff i got back when really looks crap today, time to bite the bullet and update"

That's why I despise the current habit of calling system avatars "classic" in an attempt to make them sound better than they ever were.

"Old" is not the same as "Classic".
 

[Syo Emerald]

I'm always suprised when people complain about the price for mesh body parts. Considering how much work went into making that stuff, the price is well justified. Skin prices have stayed the same. In 2010 good classic skins were in the same price range as body appliers for mesh bodes are now. Clothes for standart avatars were also not cheaper than mesh clothes now. Over time, any wardrobe got to be worth tousands of linden dollars.  I remember a friend inviting me to the N-core shoe store back then, so newbie me could pick a pair of good shoes. Over 700L for a single pair of shoes, one single colour! Not to mention the prices some cars, boats and houses have...and those are things you aren't likely to use as much as you would use a part of your avatar.

Also regarding what Amber posted: I'm still wearing the very same shape I did years ago. I tweaked it a little, but its still my shape. Using a mesh body has not made my shape and the work that went into it disappear. And boy am I glad I will never ever need to wear one of those disturbing facelights anymore.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Syo Emerald

[Fionalein]

2 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

I'm always suprised when people complain about the price for mesh body parts. Considering how much work went into making that stuff, the price is well justified. Skin prices have stayed the same. In 2010 good classic skins were in the same price range as body appliers for mesh bodes are now. Clothes for standart avatars were also not cheaper than mesh clothes now. Over time, any wardrobe got to be worth tousands of linden dollars.  I remember a friend inviting me to the N-core shoe store back then, so newbie me could pick a pair of good shoes. Over 700L for a single pair of shoes, one single colour! Not to mention the prices some cars, boats and houses have...and those are things you aren't likely to use as much as you would use a part of your avatar.

Also regarding what Amber posted: I'm still wearing the very same shape I did years ago. I tweaked it a little, but its still my shape. Using a mesh body has not made my shape and the work that went into it disappear. And boy am I glad I will never ever need to wear one of those disturbing facelights anymore.

but you have to admit you nowadays get pretty decent stuff for free if you know where you are looking for... might have been so back then too.

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

11 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Things are also much cheaper with eBody with two free bodies and altamura with free full avatars or heads now and then. Hence, really no reason NOT to have a mesh avatar.

I found the eBody dollarbies were harder to dress than my system av. Apparently Altamura breaks their gift bodies now so we can't alpha out their heads any more. That limits their usefulness for those of us who aren't keen on the way they do faces.

So it's cheap and easy to own a mesh body these days but that doesn't make them cheap or easy to use.

[Theresa Tennyson]

ADVANTAGES TO MESH BODIES/HEADS:

• Superior smoothness and detail
• Can allow more slider adjustment and use of physics when wearing mesh clothing
• Have materials support
• Support Bento animations
• Are the current de facto standard in the SL fashion industry so new items are being made for them, often exclusively

DISADVANTAGES TO MESH BODIES/HEADS:

• Increased mesh complexity, texture and script load
• Some complexity and script issues exist only to support features that may not be in use much of the time but are constant
• Generally work best with large, constantly attached HUD's, also increasing the texture and script load
• Layering multiple textures can cause alpha-sorting issues
• Do not support system skins/tattoos/clothing/alphas
• Limited and imperfect support for pre-fitted "standard size" mesh clothing
• Do not support older furniture animations
• Proprietary rigging information that is controlled by the creator
• Have more limited useful range of size/shape adjustments compared to the system body
• Can create complications when the user has a large number of varying pre-determined looks they use
• Require initial purchase
• Clothing/asset makers determine which bodies they will support, meaning that choices of body/head system are influenced by market forces
• Market support currently is skewed toward brands that are at the high end of the price range and may not have the look a consumer wants

And there you have it. If the advantages outweigh the disadvantages for you, use a mesh body. If they don't, don't. Don't imagine that the relative lengths of the advantages and disadvantages mean that I think mesh bodies are "bad" because the disadvantage list is longer. I have multiple accounts - some use mesh bodies (one has a very non-standard shape and started using a Wowmeh body before any of the big current bodies existed); some don't because for those accounts the disadvantages outweigh the advantages in my opinion. "Bakes on Mesh" will reduce or eliminate the first five disadvantages so I may start using them more, but I might not depending on what I want to do.

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Theresa Tennyson