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Suki Hirano

A whole new level of "you can look but you can't touch our precious creation"

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We've already established the fact that most so-called "original mesh creators" (validity pending) refuse to hand out modifiable versions of their products because:

 

  • They believe the rumour modifiable = easier to copybot
  • They don't want customers to play around with their stuff in case they make it look ugly
  • They think customers are too stupid to know how to use the edit tool then blame it on them if it breaks

Fine, whatever. People like me can always choose to just find stuff that are copy/mod to buy.

But behold, a new level of "you can look but you can't touch our precious creation" has risen. This new shoe/clothing store (apparently I can't name and shame it, even though it deserves it) was so confident in their stuff that they turned me down for asking creator to link various parts of items that should be linked in the first place (e.g. a crop top's shoulder straps with the top itself). Really? No I'm not exaggerating. Anyone with any basic mesh knowledge knows that linking rigged mesh items does not affect their rigging. You could link your rigged hair to your rigged shoe and they'll still work. It literally takes 5 seconds to link an item to save on attachment slots - nope rejected. Reason? "We don't think customers need a linked version of this item". Oh and that's not all, their second reason was "if you use Firestorm or official SL viewer, you get unlimited attachment points" (which is absolutely 100% false but they refuse to admit it even after I linked the official wiki article). So basically bad customer service AND treating your customers like gullible dumbasses who will believe anything creators say and eat anything they're thrown at. Lmao. What's next? No it's not a problem with our texture, just wave an eggplant in your face and your lag will be all gone! Also the funny thing is, the demo is linked, with no notecard saying a linked version is omitted from the full version. So this is borderline false advertising as well.

I can't be the only one here constantly struggling with 38/38 slots. What would you wear, a top that comes with 1 attachment piece, or one separated into 3 attachments for some weird reason? A harness that comes as 1 piece, or one separated into whopping 4 pieces?

All that aside, I'm curious to know why? Why do they choose to purposely omit the linked version if they already have it for the demo? What harm does it do to your store to literally right click -> link an object? I wasn't asking for a modifiable version because with a creator like this that'll never happen. People who refuse to give modifiable stuff at least have (what they think are, even though most aren't) "reasons" behind it. I may not have a store of my own or do any full-time 3D design, but I do know the basics behind it and built a bunch of things. As a builder who endorses the idea that everything except scripts should be modifiable, something like this is just incomprehensible.

If you had the patience to read all that, I'd like to hear your thoughts. Flaming from fangirls of this store is of course always welcome, it's an interweb forum after all.

 

 


 

Update to the story: apparently not only does the creator refuse to link items, they refuse to correct ANY MISTAKES MADE ON ITEMS as well. One of their items, which I bought, has completely incorrect naming. The top is labeled "bottom" and bottom labeled "top". This is highly annoying for people who wear ONLY the top or bottom. It takes like 10 seconds to fix this right? And put it inside a damn redelivery terminal? Not too much to ask? Nope. Creator refuses to even fix something as simple as this, claiming "it's the customer's responsibility to remember the top is the bottom and vice-versa". Are you f-cking kidding me? This just blew my mind as well as the "bad creator rating scale".

TLDR: This store will not correct any mistakes. Defective item? Too bad. We're too lazy to help customers.

 

Avoid this store at all costs. I'd love to name it but the mods here are probably going to remove it in an hour. PM me if you're interested in knowing the store name. Let's just say the store name is the first word of a building in New York City and starts with E. Sometimes good quality stuff just isn't enough to make up for a completely f-cked up attitude.

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Since you seem to be running out of slots -- I am wondering what you AVATAR RENDERING COST MIGHT BE. 

 

You need to remove the company name or risk getting banned from the boards (there are rules :D

 

I have NEVER run out of attachment points since we got more than one slot per area. In the old days in case you don't know, we could only attach ONE thing to one place (like a necklace to chest). 

 

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Wow! that was some rant lol...   I do however, agree that when things need to be linked then they should be, despite the number of attachement points we may or may not have.  The only reason I can see for having staps to a top or dress not liked would be if you wanted the option to either wear with or without straps.  But that was not a reason given for not doing it I guess.  As for modify, well back in the day before mesh modify was pretty much needed in order to get a good fit for a prim piece of clothing, but with rigged mesh and even better fitted mesh, it is not so important at least it isn't to me.  If I like something well enough to spend my lindens on it then I pretty much like it the way it is so have no need to want to mess with it.  

I actually don't have a clue which store you are talking about, guess it is not in my fav list lol.

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From the title I thought there are at least few merchants that have done something to made you so mad...

You do understand this is just one person who didn't want to comply with your request? They have every right to do so and only thing you can do about it is don't buy their stuff lol

Okay you can do another and that is to create the top for yourself and link whatever you think it should be linked. 

 

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Suki Hirano wrote:

...

I can't be the only one here constantly struggling with 38/38 slots. What would you wear, a top that comes with 1 attachment piece, or one separated into
3
attachments for some weird reason? A harness that comes as 1 piece, or one separated into whopping
4
pieces?

...

 

Sort of off topic, but I am really curious what your render weight is if you are using that many attachment points, especially if you are linking things already.

 


Suki Hirano wrote:
  • They believe the rumour modifiable = easier to copybot

Yeah, that's a bit silly. Using a certain well known bot (used by CasperLet to invite people to group) one can even copy mesh without owning it. Mod/Nomod/Owning/Just seeing = no difference.

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I can see why they may not link everything together to give the option to wear it or not.  They also may not have time to comply with all the special requests they may get.  Many creators only have a few hours a week they can spend on their store and want to use the time to make more items.

No mod rigged mesh clothing doesn't bother me.  You can't resize it or move it but you are still allowed to attach it to a different attachment point if one is full and it will still go where it is supposed to.  You can't retexture it as you need the texture maps to do that and have it look good and no creator is going to give you those.  For these reasons what could you possible mod?

Seriously, your ARC must be huge if all your attachment points are at their limits (I've never run out of slots).  If you have 38 items attached to a point, most people will see you as a jellybean anyway.

Bottom line, vote with your feet and just not buy from that creator if you don't like how they run their store.  There is no use ranting here about just one of them.  Creators own all the rights to their creations and can decide how they want to sell an item.  You just buy the right to use a no mod item in SL. as you bought it   You don't own it.

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You guys realize HUDs count as attachment as well right? I usually have at least 6-7 HUDs onscreen at once.

 

  • Two AOs. Yes I switch between them all the time
  • Hug/kiss HUD
  • Lighting HUD
  • Maitreya body HUD
  • Omega relay HUD
  • Inspector HUD
  • Posing HUD

There you go, 8 HUD's already. Sometimes I even have more, like texture HUDs or other RP HUDs.

I also like wearing accessories. Necklaces, collars, cuffs, piercings, neko ears, tails, claws, rings, you name it. I easily get 36/38 attachments while semi-naked, not exaggerating. What's wrong with wanting to conserve attachment slots? This is SL, it's my choice if I want to look good and fancy. # of attachments does not equal ARC. I could have 38 copies of a 1-prim cube attached to me, does that mean my ARC is through the roof? NO. Likewise does it mean someone's ARC will be super low if they only have 5 attachments, each with 200 LI? Obviously not.

However, that's not the point. It doesn't matter if I'm using 20 slots or 38/38 slots, it's irrelevant. The point is also not "oh creator is too busy, don't have time to spend 5 seconds to link a damn object", because the linked version is already available, they simply didn't put it into the full version's box. The point is why in the world is a top separated into 3 pieces, and why they refuse to give the linked version if they already have it (in the demo)? This is the equivalent of going to a store to demo a laptop with 3 USB ports, then after buying it, the store purposely makes it inconvenient for the customer by blocking off one of the USB ports with cement, saying, "oh I don't think customers will need that many USB ports, 2 is good enough".

Besides thinking that all SL shoppers are too dimwitted to care or seeing how much he can get away with pissing off customers and making the creator himself feel like a pompous elitist, I cannot think of any other reason. Did it save them any effort/time not putting the linked version in the full package? No. Is the linked version for sale separately as an attempt to rip off more $? No. Are they gaining any popularity by purposely making it inconvenient for customers like this? Of course not. Lose-lose situation that this store's owner apparently enjoys.

If you're interested in the store's name CadenzaInVivace quoted my post before I whited the name out. LOL good job.

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I still mean what I said in my previous post, Amethyst Jetaime said it in a nice and polite way so maybe you will understand her better. In a world like SL you are free to ask for something to be done but you are not free and you have no right to speak badly about someone who did not want to fill your request.

Now lets go a bit deeper... The owner of the store you didn't like was celebrating her real life birthday and she put 50% sale of all of the items in the store. The sim was packed for 2 days, I guess this was the time when you decided to ask about doing a modification to the item you bought. 

And I would like to tell you something. The point is not in the attachment points or reason why she decided to link it or not, the point is in having respect. 

Having respect. 

Not thinking "ohh I found a mistake in a famous creator's work, lets go straight to the place where I know many people will hear me and say something mean about her!"

From the title and the words you said it is clear you have no respect for the creator and their work - your words are mean, they speak badly about you, I see you are a kind of a person that is able to name and publicly shame someone who did nothing bad to you, they just did not fulfill your request. I understand the disappointment you have because you tried the demo - liked it, bought the item and realized it is not the same as demo. I would be disappointed too, but I would never think to do something like this - go on an official forum and start a thread saying bad words about this person. I think I would mention it to a friend or two and move on. 

I hope that you will be able to see how wrong your approach is. 

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  • Maitreya body HUD
  • Omega relay HUD

These two huds only need to be put on while your getting dressed. 2 ao's holy cow you have way to much going on with your screen. Shakes head 

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  • "Two AOs. Yes I switch between them all the time
  • Hug/kiss HUD
  • Lighting HUD
  • Maitreya body HUD
  • Omega relay HUD
  • Inspector HUD
  • Posing HUD

There you go, 8 HUD's already. Sometimes I even have more, like texture HUDs or other RP HUDs."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are the huds!! OMG! you must have a mega sized screen, and a monster computer!  I have been in SL over 11 years, and I use huds too but none are ever on my screen all at once!  Lighting is just not needed with all the windlight choices we now have to set our viewer with,  two AO's good grief!  I just use the one built into my viewer now put my fav poses in it and that's all I need.  Maitreya and Omega relay huds don't stay on my screen once i am dressed,  Posing hud???  really?  all the time??  And I have no idea what an inspector hud is..  I hope it isn't for spying on folks and what they are wearing..  IN short by listing all the stuff you wear all the time  you have effectively shown why you have issues with attachment points lmao ..  

Absoutely no need for all of those all the time..  just arrange them in your inventory so you can find em fast if need be.  Sinple!

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Of course you are free to wear what and as much as you want. 

I also understand that that 38 plain cubes won't give you a high ARC.  But it is more than the LI of an object that makes up the ARC, it also depends on a lot of the prims properties, which actually have more of an impact even if they are one prim each and can produce a ARC rating much higher than one. Many of the things you like to wear would fall into this category,

If the DEMO was linked, the creator would still have to spend time retexturing the item to remove the word DEMO or removing a DEMO sign.  It isn't just a matter of passing a ready made item from their inventory to yours.

As I said before, just don't go there if you don't like how she runs her business.  Throwing what amounts to a tantrum and trying to harm her business here on the forum because she refused your one special request I doubt will change her mind.  I'd think rather it would have the opposite effect in any future interactions with you if you continue to patronize her store.

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Suki Hirano wrote:

You guys realize HUDs count as attachment as well right? I usually have at least 6-7 HUDs onscreen at once.

 
  • Two AOs. Yes I switch between them all the time
  • Hug/kiss HUD
  • Lighting HUD
  • Maitreya body HUD
  • Omega relay HUD
  • Inspector HUD
  • Posing HUD

There you go, 8 HUD's already. Sometimes I even have more, like texture HUDs or other RP HUDs.

Although you are very welcome to wear anything you want, each of these is bumping up your script load, and that means when you TP into a place you affect everyone as each script is transferred into the SIM and started. (You have noticed how in busy sims there is severe lag when some people TP in or out? This is why)

There are also a number of bugs in region handover that will kill scripts in attachments. If your HUDS are NoMod (which I curse, like you) then one day you will find they are dead, and can't be reset.

Comsider that you don't need them all. Put them on situationally and you will find that those extra spots can be used for other things.

Even so, that you are hitting this limit all the time means you are very far from the normal.

 


Suki Hirano wrote:

 

I also like wearing accessories. Necklaces, collars, cuffs, piercings, neko ears, tails, claws, rings, you name it.

As people keep saying, we would love to know your render weight!

 

All these scripts in your HUDS hurting other people when you TP in and out of sims + all these polygons you carry in your attachments. I can smell the burning CPUs of your friends allready!

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Callum Meriman wrote:


 .... ]Although you are very welcome to wear anything you want, each of these is bumping up your script load, and that means when you TP into a place you affect everyone as each script is transferred into the SIM and started. (You have noticed how in busy sims there is severe lag when some people TP in or out? This is why)

[ .... ]

 Actually, no.  A region's servers do stall briefly as people teleport in or out, and they stall when anything is being rezzed.  Those can cause a very obvious bit of lag, especially if there's a lot of traffic or if there's a lot of building going on.  That has nothing to do with scripts that people may be carrying, though. It happens because the servers have to calculate the positions and velocities of new objects and avatars and deal with their capabilities.   

The region's servers prioritize tasks, giving scripts the lowest priority.  That means that scripts are always running in the "free time" that is left over after the servers have finished dealing with avatars, physical objects, communication, and all their other work.  If there is no "free" time, those other tasks can make scripts lag, but scripts can't make anything else (except other scripts) lag. 

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Tamara Artis wrote:

Okay you can do another and that is to create the top for yourself and link whatever you think it should be linked. 

 

This was my first thought....ah, the slippery slope to becoming a builder! "I'll just do it myself!" :heart:

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Suki Hirano wrote:

We've already established the fact that most so-called "original mesh creators" (validity pending) refuse to hand out modifiable versions of their products.

But behold, a new level of "you can look but you can't touch our precious creation" has risen.


These seem to be some quite spiteful and disrespectful comments... it's not all like that. If you were a creator yourself, you probably wouldn't be talking like that at all.

 


Suki Hirano wrote:

We've already established the fact that most so-called "original mesh creators" (validity pending) refuse to hand out modifiable versions of their products because:

 
  • They believe the rumour modifiable = easier to copybot
  • They don't want customers to play around with their stuff in case they make it look ugly
  • They think customers are too stupid to know how to use the edit tool then blame it on them if it breaks

Fine, whatever. People like me can always choose to just find stuff that are copy/mod to buy.

People who refuse to give modifiable stuff at least have (what they think are, even though most aren't) "reasons" behind it.

Yet on the other hand, some customers are obsessed with having mod/copy permissions even on the most advanced items, even if doing so will break some functionality or intent of the item - Makes me wonder why.

Some will take to review sections and leave low reviews (because they item lacked permissions they demand to have, though the item never offered it to start with).

Perhaps instead of decrying merchants who limit permissions, and promoting some strange copy/mod shopping culture (those are options, not requirements), do what you do - shop elsewhere, or contact the merchant and see what they can do for you personally.

Reasons why a product (or creator) may not include copy/mod (or variations of):

#1 Why would it have to be? Do you get copy/mod permissions when you buy a snowglobe from a curiosity shop in RL? Do you mean you went in to the store, looked around, found a snowman in a globe that was cute, bought it, then went home to find out you can't replicate it or mod it? Then you head to Yelp and defame the product because you couldn't change the snowman's tie color?

#2 The product WILL break or has specific requirements to remain intact. Yes, the product may rely on the product remaining intact for it to function and perform as it was intended. If you want to pull it apart, for what purpose would you be doing that anyway that would require advanced permissions? Some textures are 'baked' into the product, so changing the texture to a 'wood texture' you would like would be pointless - Also, didn't you buy the product because you liked how it looked in the first place? Again, explain why you need to do this.

#3 Personally, If I include mod/copy on everything, I might as well sell parts only, and save the time mapping out textures, handpainting and designing textures, learning Cycles to bake them out, etc... and just let you put that crappy wood grain on it. Why bother doing it... if the customer buys your stuff just to change it - why do the work completing it (or even advertising a style that may not be appealing either, trying to guess what people like)

Yes, there is a sense of pride from the creator that gets insulted if someone wants to mod and tear their creation apart (for w/e reason). They designed it and sold it as it is - it is a work of art. I'm not in the business of selling builder parts, or spare parts, or scrap parts.. no mod ensures my products stay intact .

Even if it is only pride being served. It is my artistic vision, and I believe it needs to stay intact.

#4 Limiting permissions actually takes the stress off customers. Ever played the Sims? When you get that new prop, furniture, pool, piano, bed, bar, jukebox, etc... do you feel the need to mod it there? Does it need to be resized? Nope. It just fits. This is the goal we need to strive for in SL. I design with the default SL avatar in mind. I may include a resizer script or modification permission on items that need it (like a shop sign, art piece, etc), but a couch should be near standardized. This will encourage not only creators to create avatar meshes with some kind of standard, but stop the demand from Minotaur-sized avatars to be able to sit properly on stuff that isn't designed for them.

It's okay to be a Minotaur, but realize you will have to seek and purchase Minotaur-sized furniture, made for your race. Much like clothes are made specific for a model of avatar, realize that your 10 foot woman with the 8 foot legs probably isn't going to fit on the average furniture out there - AND WHY SHOULD THEY EXPECT TO.

No matter what side you are on, there are always reasons, and valid reasons.

#5 Limiting permissions increases percieved value of the item. When I started Second Life, some of my best and favourite purchases that I have today were No Copy / No Mod items. Fancy office chairs, an octopus 'table', fancy living room chair, etc didn't have any permissions. I treated them like gold. They seemed even more special because I couldn't just replicate 100 of them on my land and on friend's lands.. It became "MY CHAIR DON"T YOU SIT IN THAT!". There is value in this approach. When you must look after something, and not leave it willy-nilly out and about, the item becomes precious. Also, being able to change the texture on the chair or otherwise screw with it would have also lessened its value.

----

The panic of No Copy / No Mod items is exaggerated. If lost due to some mistake on the owner's part, they can always contact the seller to have it redelivered to them (Or even better, have a "Redeliver Item" button on the product listing itself on the MP)

I plan to make some very unique items in the future, items with special abilities, puzzles, etc. They will probably have no copy/ no mod on them. This will be because they are meant to be precious, special, and dangerous to lose. So don't lose them.

I'm a big boy, I haven't lost any of my no copy / no mod items. Though of course I wouldn't mind if they were at least copy for safety, but I don't cry and demand from the creator anything they're not willing to do.

As you said, you're free to check "mod" and "copy" options on the listings and never see any other creations. However, any creator who is willing to 'prostitute' their work out, probably isn't all that invested in their products, or will lose the drive to create new things, if the intent is by people to turn them into spare parts, etc.


Suki Hirano wrote:

 As a builder who endorses the idea that everything except scripts should be modifiable, something like this is just incomprehensible.

 Well hopefully I've made this more 'comprehensible' to you. I endorse Creator's Choice, but also to educate people that they have no right to DEMAND things from creators.. You're not ENTITLED to anything - but you do have the choice where you spend your dollars.

For me, it can be the difference between me concepting, sketching, painting, modelling, skinning, baking a cool 'cube' for sale on the MP - a unique item that someone can appreciate...  vs uploading a white untextured cube and saying "Here, you texture it how you want, you have all the permissions in the world".

There is literally no point (at the end of this debate) for a creator to spend time doing any of that, if customers like you demand that they have the ability to change it.

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what is all the hoo ha about HUDS and rendering costs? Things worn on the HUD have no impact at all on rendering cost. At least not one the number calculated by SL.

I have some old, old hair about 75,000 added to rendering cost if I wear it on my head, exactly zero impact on rendering cost if worn as a hud. Looks a bit odd on the screen, gotta say.

And most of my huds have scripts that to not interact with the server in any way shape or form till I activate them. A box with zero rendering cost that holds scripts that only interact wth you browser will do absolutely nothing to your neighbors SL experience. Perhaps slow you down a bit, but no one else.

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Syo Emerald wrote:

Normal people don't have your kind of problem.

Good, then I'm exceptional. I guess you're too "normal" for my taste.

 

Not going to quote every post, too time consuming, but it's pretty easy to know which reply each bullet point is pointed at.

I love how quick this thread turned into the following:

 

  • Flaming me for wearing too much stuff. And it's your business how many attachments I wear? Don't reply if you think asking someone to spend 20sec to help a paying customer = I'm asking Trump to donate the Trump building to me. I like a bit of lighting, I like posing anywhere I go for photos, I like using two AOs, I like wearing a dozen accessories to look fancy, got a problem? Unbelievable. This forum is like a breeding ground for bigots. Just because you have 5 attachments on and look like the twin sister of Ruth Linden doesn't mean everyone else wants to. I'd love to imagine you going to combat systems and look at the fully-geared people. "oh emme gee too many attachments! All you need is a prim hair and bling bling heels!"
  • Lol linking attachments is "time consuming"?? Lmao. Have you ever heard of something called "customer service"? Guess not. Customer service TAKES TIME, light bulb. Was I saying that I was demanding a linked version 5min after asking it? Are you saying that customers should get ANY kind of service after purchase because it "takes time" and creator is "too busy"?
  • Lmao at "being mean to the very nice creator who offered a 50% off sale". Your logic is so flawed I won't even bother rebutting it. Let's just leave it at "typical fangirl protecting their goddess store and retaliating against anyone with criticism" not-worth-replying bullcrap. It's kinda amusing seeing fangirls upset though, gotta admit, just to see what kind of silly responses they give while holding a flaming pitchfork lol. This store deserves any kind of negative publicity it gets. I don't care if its stuff are 2x as good as Blueberry (which obviously it isn't, with flawed rigging and mistakes everywhere), with an unbelievable customer service attitude like that its score instantly gets cut in half. Would you go shop at Costco if the CSR's tells you "I'm too lazy to spend 20sec to help you lift this box onto your shopping cart, go hire a butler instead"?

I was expecting a civil conversation, instead this turned into a flame war against the silly fangirls yet again. Gotta love how these fangirls interpret criticism as "being rude" lmao. I expect I have caused a few heart attacks by now if that logic is true, every time a fangirl reads my post.

 

For today's update to the story read bottom part of my opening post. If you intend to do one of the following I suggest you click the back button in your browser because I'm not interested, nor is anyone else:

 

  • Complain I'm wearing too many attachments and somehow equating the main idea of this thread = me running out of attachment slots. Learn to read pls, specifically the part where I clearly said this is NOT about attachment slots
  • "But I love that store!!!oneoneone111, how can u say anything bad about my goddess"

 

 

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She doesn't want to listen to what is being said if it disagrees with her.

If she is as combative and nasty with the creator she complains about as she is in the forums, it's no wonder they won't do anything for her.

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

She doesn't want to listen to what is being said if it disagrees with her.

If she is as combative and nasty with the creator she complains about as she is in the forums, it's no wonder they won't do anything for her.

Bingo.

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Guessing nobody here has delt with the store owner in question. i know exactly what they're talking about and giving the owner in question the benefit of the doubt is the worst thing you can do.

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Sorry for my late response, i was searching for good tips about best stores (shoes, clothes) and i bump into your discussion..

I think it was a respectable way of saying: i do what i want with my time and no, i don't want to do what you are asking me.

It will be the same as to ask you to just stop putting everything on you and therefor lagging anywhere you go with your probably heavy avatar.

I agree with everybody, but Amethyst Jetaime put it simple: most people, if everybody, see you as a jellybean. 

you didn-t put your avatar rendering like a lot of people ask you to..  You are an inconsiderate person.  You won't be able to find someone who thinks like you. putting a lot of stuff on you won't make you prettier than the one who only use 5 attachments.. where did you get the idea of being a duplicate if you don't use all your attachments (and more)? Really!.

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