This is why SL will never be conventionally accepted:

[Edfred Jungsten]

When new residents learn  (and rather quickly) that another person can push, shoot, cage, hurl into the sky their avatar (and bad residents do just that, unchecked), they leave. They don't have any idea what an abuse report is or how to file one. They don't know what antipush is.

When one person has the selfish ability to shut down several connected regions by rezzing a 6000m megaprim thats rotating its texture, people get fed up rather fast.

People will never flock to SL, because there is very little, if any, rule enforcement. Filing an abuse report with photos and descriptions does not guarantee any of the issues a nasty resident is exhibiting will be dealt with.

You have to be TOUGH to stay in this game and contribute,and most of the General Public who might be interestied in SL is not. Bad people can make the inworld experience extremely frustrating.

Thats my 2 cents.

[Rhys Goode]

Been here for over 4 years.   Very active, on SL for an hour or two nearly every day.  

But....   I have never been caged, or shot, or hurled into the sky, unless I am in a sim that I went to intentionaly, knowing they featured that kind of play.

What am I doing wrong?  I keep hearing tales of grief and bullies, but I have yet to find it on my own.

 

 

[Imnotgoing Sideways]

My guess is that you may be doing the same thing I'm doing.  Maybe we must repent of our sinful ways in order to receive the properly painful griefings people speak of. =^-^=

[Rolig Loon]

I was caged once about 3 years ago, but by a very dumb cager.  I TP'd out, came back around the corner a few seconds later and scared the wits out of him.  Other than that, I've seen a few lame self-replicator griefings but nothing to write home about.  The bad guys aren't in my neighborhood, I guess.

[Venus Petrov]

You must be hanging out in some combat sims where these things can happen.  That, or sandboxes that have no 'enforcer' on hand.

I have been orbited once by a good friend after I had orbited her (this by mutual agreement).  I have been caged by same friend and have caged one or two others. 

I have been inworld just over four years.  I do not think that I am missing something.

[Void Singer]

it all depends on where you go, private estates and land owners tend to be pretty quick about dealing with that stuff when they have staff around.

 

me I kinda like griefers, because they always wanna play "my gun is better than your gun" (aka the ruler game ::cough:: ).... and I have a gun that bans them, teleports them home, and ejects them if that fails... not once,  but repeatedly, at any altitude for the whole region I manage....

[Marigold Devin]

It doesn't really matter that SL will never be "conventionally accepted", for it is not a conventional gaming platform, and I strongly suspect that one of the main reasons for new people not returning after their first experience in SL is more to do with the fact they don't know what they are meant to be doing, and think there should be an aim, or clear instructions of what to do next.  Its not a matter of being "tough", more a matter of having an imagination, and an open mind.

I've been in Second Life since November 2007, and have only been griefed twice, and although the first time it happened I was quite distressed, I put it down to experience.  I have also had a psychopathic woman attempt to blacken my name with the owners of all the groups I was in, but it's impossible to get through life - real or virtual - without encountering all types of people, with all types of issues.

Things do p1ss me off in Second Life, but pretty much the things p1ss me off in real life too, but I'm still not bitter and twisted enough to give up either life.

Any issues I have had that have led to me submitting Abuse Reports have been dealt with fairly on the whole.

I'm sorry to hear that you have such a negative view of Second Life.

 

 

 

[Ishtara Rothschild]

While I had my share of griefers in my sim (verbal abuse for the most part), I've never been caged, orbited, or shot either.

I guess it all depends on the land or region settings as well as the maturity rating. "No damage" and "no push" should be the standard settings anywhere but in combat sims, rezzing should be disabled except for the select group of people who need to rez things, and if you desire an even higher level of security, you can lock the anonymous rabble out by disabling access for NPioFs.

If you don't hang out in properly configured adult- or M-rated public sims or on your own land, and instead mingle with the dregs of SL in the virtual equivalent of slum areas and dark alleys (i.e. infohubs, public sandboxes, and pretty much the entire G-rated mainland), you kind of had it coming. It shouldn't take long for new residents to figure that out.

 

PS: Law enforcement, as far as griefing goes, should be left entirely to land and region owners imo. There is no need for LL to enforce their standards on our land, just as my webhosting company shouldn't get involved in the design of my website or the moderation of my own private forum.

PPS: Compared to the sandbox MMOs that I frequented in the past, such as Ultima Online or Sociolotron, where griefers would beat newcomers unconscious and steal their inventory (or do things to them that I cannot spell out here), Second Life is rather tame. There is very little that other residents can do to harm, trap, or force you, much to the chagrin of SL's BDSM community, and you always have the ability to teleport elsewhere.

[Ishtara Rothschild]

PPPS: That SL will never be accepted by the mainstream has entirely different reasons. It has something to do with the fact that very few adults have a dollhouse or a model train in their living room.

[Kascha Matova]

I don't see what the fuss is about orbiting. The rest ya, but being orbited is hilarious. Sent to the moon! I even laughed harder when I accidentally orbited myself after fooling with the buttons on some gadget I had that made me look like a pretzel with a head first, and then orbited me. My first attempts at scripting were so I could alter the camera angle to zoom in on my own face while simultaneously forcing my own mouth and eyes wide open and my tongue out, and playing an entirely inappropriate song back to myself. Something Simpsons-esque like "Afternoon Delight", because it's exactly what I'd hear at that moment if life was laughing at me instead of with me.

When it was finished, I could send my friends to space too. Can't be selfish. Then I'd figure out how to send the orbited avie a freeze frame of their own dismayed expression, like they do on amusement park roller coasters.

Not that I just went around orbiting people. I never orbited anyone who didn't...deserve it. It was usually weirdos bugging me for sexual favors.

The rest of everyone's concerns I agree with vehemently! :womanvery-happy:

[Dillon Levenque]

---

Marigold Devin wrote:

It doesn't really matter that SL will never be "conventionally accepted", for it is not a conventional gaming platform, and I strongly suspect that one of the main reasons for new people not returning after their first experience in SL is more to do with the fact they don't know what they are meant to be doing, and think there should be an aim, or clear instructions of what to do next.  Its not a matter of being "tough", more a matter of having an imagination, and an open mind.

 

---

Well, that is certainly true. Never thought of it that way but then I continually run across things I never thought of. To be able to have any kind of involved connection with SL requires at the very least something exceeding 'computer literacy'; many PC games do not. It also means spending a lot of time reading tutorials and blogs (when you'd much rather be doing things inworld) just to learn the most basic things. That sort of thing will never be conventional. Those who stay do so because of the very close to limitless possibilities. When you 'level up' here, only you and your friends are even aware that you've evolved (and that is a more accurate term for the process). In that respect it is more like the real world than any 'game' ever made.

[Edfred Jungsten]

With the basic viewer now being implemented, computer literacy seems like it isn't a requirement anymore. And yes I am talking abut Linden Public Lands specifically. That is where new residents spend their first initial experience in Second Life, where they orientate themselves to the world, where they make their first attempts at making friends, and where they spend time discovering their first purcheses / freebies. The public land experience is the gateway to whether Second Life is a win or a fail in ther minds.

I remember Linden Lab had big dreams for the Virtual world environment way back when, that it could be accepting  to everyone and that one day all internet commerce and interaction could be done inworld, yada yada.

[Kylie Jaxxon]

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Rhys Goode wrote:

Been here for over 4 years.   Very active, on SL for an hour or two nearly every day.  

But....   I have never been caged, or shot, or hurled into the sky, unless I am in a sim that I went to intentionaly, knowing they featured that kind of play.

What am I doing wrong?  I keep hearing tales of grief and bullies, but I have yet to find it on my own.

 

 

---

^ This ^

[Kylie Jaxxon]

---

Ishtara Rothschild wrote:

PPPS: That SL will never be accepted by the mainstream has entirely different reasons. It has something to do with the fact that very few adults have a dollhouse or a model train in their living room.

---

^ And most definitely, this ^  LOL

[Monti Messmer]

I got caged, orbited and ejected in my early days but allways thought i pushed a jump or fly button. No credits for the nasty ones !

Later on someone kept caging me in a club but i just TPd out or left to get a coffee and they got bored. Getting bans on sims for helping a friend who was attacked by silly idiots ... i couldn´t care less; SL is biiig.

The only time i went mad for orbiting was in a public sandbox but that wasn´t one of my first experiences in SL.

Why people won´t stay is (said before) they don´t see a target or goal or path to go. They are overwhelmed by the possibilities but unaware how to do (blame it on the viewer or whatever u like :smileywink:)

Not everyone stay in WoW or The Sims or .... else there be only one online platform around. Oh and i even heard rumours not everyone loves FB but thats another story :smileywink:

[Dillon Levenque]

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Edfred Jungsten wrote:

With the basic viewer now being implemented, computer literacy seems like it isn't a requirement anymore. And yes I am talking abut Linden Public Lands specifically. That is where new residents spend their first initial experience in Second Life, where they orientate themselves to the world, where they make their first attempts at making friends, and where they spend time discovering their first purcheses / freebies. The public land experience is the gateway to whether Second Life is a win or a fail in ther minds.

---

I see your point, but I'm still not sure that SL has to win or fail right there. When I arrived the only public land I knew about was Help Island, where my avatar rezzed (I gather it's different now). I spent a few hours at most looking there, going back to the internet to read tutorials, and getting at least a bit familiar. But as soon as I could I TP'd to the mainland and never looked back (as I recall there was a kind of test tp set up that you had to use before you could get off the island).

 

[Rolig Loon]

 

---

Dillon Levenque wrote:

---

Edfred Jungsten wrote:

With the basic viewer now being implemented, computer literacy seems like it isn't a requirement anymore. And yes I am talking abut Linden Public Lands specifically. That is where new residents spend their first initial experience in Second Life, where they orientate themselves to the world, where they make their first attempts at making friends, and where they spend time discovering their first purcheses / freebies. The public land experience is the gateway to whether Second Life is a win or a fail in ther minds.

---

I see your point, but I'm still not sure that SL has to win or fail right there. When I arrived the only public land I knew about was Help Island, where my avatar rezzed (I gather it's different now). I spent a few hours at most looking there, going back to the internet to read tutorials, and getting at least a bit familiar. But as soon as I could I TP'd to the mainland and never looked back (as I recall there was a kind of test tp set up that you had to use before you could get off the island).

 

---

 

I had the same experience, Dillon, and I agree that the initial impression at Help Island (or wherever) doesn't have to be a make-or-break one for SL.  It clearly wasn't for you and me.  However, I think we are seeing a shift in the type of resident that LL is trying to attract, especially now that they have introduced the Basic mode.  I'm not sure that it amounts to "dumbing down" SL or conceding to computer illiteracy, although it feels that way at times.  I think it's more like what happened when auto manufacturers started putting automatic transmissions in cars.  All of a sudden, new drivers didn't need to mess with a clutch and shifting gears.  It was a "dumbing down," yes, but it also meant that drivers didn't have to spend so much time focusing on how to drive and could pay more attention to where they were going, which was  good thing.  (The fact that drivers are distracted by many more things than a clutch is another matter.... :smileytongue: )  In theory, getting new SL residents past the initial stage and into exploring/experiencing SL should help them focus more on where they are going instead of how to get there.  It's just-in-time learning.

BTW, I'm not sure that I buy this line of argument wholeheartedly.  I think that some new SL residents do seem too functionally iliterate to ever make it here, so the Help Island experience might be a useful way to filter them out.  I've always felt uncomfortable with the way some college faculty view intro-level classes as a way to wash out the unworthy, though, so I'm not going very far down that road.

[Marigold Devin]

---

Dillon Levenque wrote:

---

Edfred Jungsten wrote:

With the basic viewer now being implemented, computer literacy seems like it isn't a requirement anymore. And yes I am talking abut Linden Public Lands specifically. That is where new residents spend their first initial experience in Second Life, where they orientate themselves to the world, where they make their first attempts at making friends, and where they spend time discovering their first purcheses / freebies. The public land experience is the gateway to whether Second Life is a win or a fail in ther minds.

---

I see your point, but I'm still not sure that SL has to win or fail right there. When I arrived the only public land I knew about was Help Island, where my avatar rezzed (I gather it's different now). I spent a few hours at most looking there, going back to the internet to read tutorials, and getting at least a bit familiar. But as soon as I could I TP'd to the mainland and never looked back (as I recall there was a kind of test tp set up that you had to use before you could get off the island).

 

---

I was like you, in that as soon as I could, I teleported out of the initial orientation/welcome area and onto the mainland, and I only ventured back there when creating alts, and got out even faster each time!! 

In real life, I've found the best way of learning something has been to throw myself fully into it, and always believing Second Life not to be a game, as such (unless the individual chooses to view it as a game), it was more an adventure, a series of explorations for me, and yet so much more. At times it's really given my grey matter a proper workout, and I have learnt an enormous amount about so many things, cultures, languages, a bit of geeky stuff, and a lot about human nature. 

 

[Dresden Ceriano]

 

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Marigold Devin wrote:

It doesn't really matter that SL will never be "conventionally accepted", for it is not a conventional gaming platform, and I strongly suspect that one of the main reasons for new people not returning after their first experience in SL is more to do with the fact they don't know what they are meant to be doing, and think there should be an aim, or clear instructions of what to do next.  Its not a matter of being "tough", more a matter of having an imagination, and an open mind.

---

This is the main reason SL is not more accessible to your "normal everyday person". In order to get the most out of SL you have to have the inherent ability to entertain yourself. Most people just aren't like that. Most people expect to be entertained and not to have to work too hard for it.

Think of TV, or even closer, think of World of Warcraft. In WOW, you join and you have a set mission, kill people and level up or whatever (I didn't get that far into it). But the way you do that is set up for you; the place you do it is set up for you. You don't have to think of what to do, just figure out the best way to do it. And you certainly don't have to build somewhere to do it. This is not the case in SL.

Watching TV, going to see a movie, going out dancing or drinking don't take that much mental input. This is what most people expect of their free time. Something to turn their brain off for a little while. And believe me, I enjoy that kind of entertainment as much as the next person. So I can understand the mentality.

But at the same time I "get" what SL has to offer, that's why I'm still here. A lot don't get that, think SL is boring and end up leaving after a varying period of time.

How SL can be made into something that more of the masses understand, while keeping the complexity that others so enjoy, is beyond me.

As far as the OP, I believe most people that really "get" it will stay, griefers and all.

...Dres

[squashy Beeswing]

I agree with Marigold and (i think) Ishy.   I suspect that those who don't stay and don't  'get' it  haven't seen or projected their minds further than their first lack-lustre experience at a welcome centre.  

I still recall the excitement of my first few days.  I immediately understood the potential and the possibilities, and  was utterly enthralled.  With hindsight, i'm positive that i "got" it.  Yes, i had a couple of dodgy experiences during my first couple of weeks but it was all part of the adventure; that's definitely how i saw it at the time.  I was actually rather pleased to have things happen to me than otherwise.  :smileytongue:   I even have  a LiveJournal post from 18 months back (when i still kept a LiveJournal) wherein i relate ecstatically how someone tried to rip me off in a sandbox.  Call me sad or silly or both, but I was thrilled to be here and nothing was going to change that. 

TBH, some people are never going to get it.   I doubt it has much to do with being caged or orbited into the aether.  It's about having -- or not having -- the imagination to build your SL as you go along.   Okay, so i don't build or create, but i have an imagination and i have a life here. 

Despite the bugginess and treacly lag and all the rest of it, i'm still excited and happy to be here.  I wish i could explain the appeal to those who don't get it but i doubt that i can.

[Darrius Gothly]

Test to Find a True Second Life Resident:

Walk up to any stranger then hold aloft a plain white cue ball and tell them "This .. is a necklace."

If they look at you like you're daft then walk away grumbling about the maniacs they let loose these days .. take them to Facebook.

But if their eyes pinch shut a bit, their head tilts to the side to get a better view from another angle, and then they start asking questions like "How do you attach it?" "Can you make it other colors?" etc. ... Bring them to Second Life.

[squashy Beeswing]

@ Darrius

Yes, that works for builders.    I don't build and have no desire to do so.  I don't want to design clothes or make machinima or any of it.   BUT i love SL and don't much like Facebook.  Please don't consign me to the latter -- even if all I see is the boring old cue ball in your hand.   :smileysad: 

[Darrius Gothly]

 

---

squashy Beeswing wrote:

@ Darrius

Yes, that works for builders.    I don't build and have no desire to do so.  I don't want to design clothes or make machinima or any of it.   BUT i love SL and don't much like Facebook.  Please don't send me to the latter, even if all I see is the boring old cue ball in your hand.   :smileysad: 

---

 

What? No Facebook Forced March for You?!? *rats* (Hey Joe! Scratch one off the Cattle Car list .. )

LOL Actually my point was meant more to show how imaginations are important to "getting it" in SL. You may only see a cue ball, but I'd bet you have the imagination to understand how some might see it different than what you see.

[Dresden Ceriano]

A good imagination is also key to being able to entertain yourself. Just saying.

...Dres

Oh and btw, show me two balls on the street and you can march me wherever you want.

Err... did I really say that out loud?

[Marigold Devin]

To squashy, and Darrius, and Ishy, and all the others who "get" SL, the one thing that is screaming out at me is that none of us have even stood still for long enough to be griefed! And there undoubtedly lies the problem. People who linger for too long at the so-called welcome areas, (and I know I have seen it mentioned many times on previous forum threads) will witness griefing attacks or be griefed themselves. Easy pickin's for those whose imagination only runs as far as griefing and bullying others.

I also would think that the pro-SL posters in this thread never ever complain of being bored - in real life as well as in Second Life, whereas I certainly know a whole load of FB enthusiasts who do complain of being bored, or of killing time rather than filling time.