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Please Enable Kudos for the Community Feedback Forum


Darrius Gothly
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I totally understand why Kudos are disabled in the Off Topic Forum. And while I'm not a fan of Kudos in general, since it seems they want them turned on, I'm willing to live with them.

But why are they turned off in the Community Feedback Forum?

There are some EXCELLENT bits of advice in here. And there are quite a few posts by some very sharp people here that have (and no doubt will) solve a lot of problems for both Residents and Linden Lab. So why can't we give those people Kudos too?

I dunno .. it just makes sense to me that we shouldn't restrict our appreciation for well written, constructive and beneficial posts to forums that deal with everything EXCEPT the community itself? I mean, seriously, don't we care about improving the Community too?

Anyway, just thinking out loud again. Thanks for reading.

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I was hoping you would like to give me some royal kudos, Darrius! :smileyvery-happy:

ETA: Okay, more seriosuly, I agree this topic does bring quite a lot of help and knowledge to many of us, and yes it is frustrating sometimes not having the possibility to express our thanks and recognition for the answers provided. So, I'll second you Darrius, Yes for kudos in the community feedback!

 

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Cerise wrote:

It is a certainty that if the kudos button is enabled in this section, participation will drop.

 

I won't argue with your opinion Cerise, but I will take your premise a step further. (Because it's right in line with my way of thinking too.)

If enabling Kudos makes people go away, they should be turned off for the whole site as they are detrimental.

However if they won't turn them off, then they should turn them on for every area that contributes to the overall benefit of the Community. (And I very much believe Community Feedback is one of them. For that matter, so is "Merchants" .. the poorly named Commerce-related Forum.)

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They're useful for cases of people helping people.

They'd become completely useless for subjective topics. The topics themselves may be good, helpful and well thought out, but when you get to topics like "I think LL should put a breedable chicken in every pot", people who agree will give Kudos and people who don't have nothing to balance that. Kudos just because you agree with someone who made a good point is less than optimal, as opposed to Kudos for concrete help and answers.

For non-help topics, I think it's enough to say "thank you for that great post, I agree". They should not be used to game popularity or to build a reputation based on bandwagon viewpoints.

If a great post is really great in the majority view on subjective topics, or as advice, it may bubble up as a sticky or find it's way in the KB, etc.

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

They're useful for cases of people helping people.

They'd become completely useless for subjective topics. The topics themselves may be good, helpful and well thought out, but when you get to topics like "I think LL should put a breedable chicken in every pot", people who agree will give Kudos and people who don't have nothing to balance that. Kudos just because you agree with someone who made a good point is less than optimal, as opposed to Kudos for concrete help and answers.

For non-help topics, I think it's enough to say "thank you for that great post, I agree". They should not be used to game popularity or to build a reputation based on bandwagon viewpoints.

If a great post is really great in the majority view on subjective topics, or as advice, it may bubble up as a sticky or find it's way in the KB, etc.

 

Totally agree. (Yeah, you read that right. LOL)

But unfortunately, Kudos are tied directly to this other bogus affectation we're saddled with .. Ranks.

Receiving Kudos advances someone's Rank. On the surface, that's a good thing. But I think they MEAN to advance someone's rank because they are helpful to other members of the community (or to the community as a whole). If that is true, then helpful posts in other forums should also give the contributor credit toward a higher rank. But they don't .. because people cannot award Kudos for those posts.

The "flaw" is that people are being skipped over, unrecognized for their valuable contributions .. while others are climbing rapidly up the ranks by receiving Kudos for posts that don't necessarily benefit anyone at all. (For example, I could wander through the various boards where Kudos are enabled, and award you Kudos for every single post you've made. That doesn't prove you contributed to a solution or helped anyone out, it just proves I can push the Kudos button on your posts.)

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

[...] Receiving Kudos advances someone's Rank. [...]

I know a few people have said this... but I haven't witnessed it... I know I reached Advisor before kudos had been enabled, and before the backtrack to add kudos for old posts occurred. so did several others, who could all be witnessed putting out a lot of answers in the forum of the same name.

I do know that (accepted) "Solutions" raise it, although perhaps only in some forums but not others, and I don't think there was much back tracking if any on those, because I know my count would be higher on my user page if they were.

 

 

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Void Singer wrote:

I know a few people have said this...  (etc.) 

 

I have two Kudos from Migration (Linden) but none here. I don't hawk the forums that have kudos enabled, I stay mainly in the Merchants, Off Topic and Community Feedback forums instead. No biggie as I'm able to contribute to full advantage at my current "Rank". But I am seeing others that have spent a lot of time, answered some very tough questions (and some pretty basic but widespread ones too) and been overall helpful ... in the forums I inhabit. But again, they are still basic rank because no Kudos.

And then we have some contributors that have rapidly escalated the Ranks, yet when you read their posts (and count the number of threads they've had pulled for ToS and CPG reasons) you see they are more detractors than contributors. But they DO have a lot of Kudos, most predominantly handed out by one or two people.

The method of rank elevation is not publicized, so we're forced to make observations and reach conclusions. The evidence I'm able to observe leads me to the conclusion that Kudos are directly contributory to increase in rank. (Either that, or they are being granted special favors by the Mods .. and we ALL know where that train of thought goes.) So while I have no "proof", I do have an overwhelming body of evidence.

I might be wrong. It certainly won't be the first nor the last. But if, as you suggest, they are simply counters and have no real effect on Rank then that leads me to two further conclusions.

First of all, why not turn them on for more forums? If they're just empty displays then being awarded Kudos gains you nothing but can allow people with no desire to post to at least indicate their gratitude or happiness with the post. (Similar to the "thumbs up", "like" and "hugs" type widgets we see on other forum boards, except we're missing the "thumbs down", "dislike" and "up yours" opposites.)

Secondly, if the high number of Kudos is not responsible for the increases in Rank for some of the more prolific contributors of "Topics guaranteed to be pulled" ... then what is the purpose of these forums? And what is the purpose of the Kudos? If the people that routinely stir up trouble and create drama are also being given advanced Rank as a form of "Reward" .. what are they doing that is worth rewarding?

I'm looking for some logic here. I'm trying to understand the process, the flow .. and the intended goal. So while thinking it all through, it just made sense to me that since they state they want people to contribute to and help improve the community, there are more places than they've allowed where that takes place .. this forum being one of those places. Thus, if Kudos are the way we show appreciation for those contributions, I want those people that contribute here to have that same advantage too. It just seems fair and to me, it makes sense.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

Secondly, if the high number of Kudos is not responsible for the increases in Rank for some of the more prolific contributors of "Topics guaranteed to be pulled" ... then what is the purpose of these forums? And what is the purpose of the Kudos? If the people that routinely stir up trouble and create drama are also being given advanced Rank as a form of "Reward" .. what are they doing that is worth rewarding?

 

Ranks identify the easy marks. If other users take notice of a poster's output, there will be a trail of accepted solutions and kudos and high page read counts and thread responses. So, start dropping those names in blog posts. Give those users extra "privileges" so that their names show up in visible company documents. Make it look like you are associated with what they do. These users might not be in your camp, but those cues give the impression that they are. The company can give a little satisfaction from the user base by feeding them other people's work, and the best part is that they get the work for free. It is instant artificial goodwill for a company that has burnt most of its own.

If a high rank is got by silly games, it can be ignored without trouble. The formula has still done its job, it has still reduced the pool of marks to evaluate and coopt.

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Cerise wrote:

Ranks identify the easy marks. If other users take notice of a poster's output, there will be a trail of accepted solutions and kudos and high page read counts and thread responses. So, start dropping those names in blog posts. Give those users extra "privileges" so that their names show up in visible company documents. Make it look like you are associated with what they do. These users might not be in your camp, but those cues give the impression that they are. The company can give a little satisfaction from the user base by feeding them other people's work, and the best part is that they get the work for free. It is instant artificial goodwill for a company that has burnt most of its own.

If a high rank is got by silly games, it can be ignored without trouble. The formula has still done its job, it has still reduced the pool of marks to evaluate and coopt.

 

So .. instead of doing it "right" by carefully evaluating the true contributors and rewarding them .. do it the "easy" way and wind up with troublemakers and problem kids in your "upper ranks"?

BRILLIANT!!

/wrists ...

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Pep wrote:

Actually Void, this must be so, as cancelling the kudos you have given someone can lead to a demotion in their rank!!!


Pep (knows of this happening.)


PS I think kudos should only be given by Lindens in the Community Feedback subforum - but they should be done publicly as recognition of constructive comments.


PPS I would even be willing to accept a Linden kudos for this suggestion, despite my lack of desire for rank advancement.

 

Excellent idea, Pep, to have kudos only being given by LL, but then...for all sections!

As you (and I think you are the only one who figured it out....) have seen, it's possible to Rank Blackmail! I did a little experiment the last weeks (by some mistakenly interpreted as 'gaming' or more hilarious 'me being in a hitsquad') and yesterday I made my point.

I revoked kudos I have given  and the result was that one of our posters got demoted in rank almost the second I revoked the last one. (Sorry Storm, it was nothing personal!).

I would therefore suggest you all agree with me, or I will revoke more kudos and have you all demoted in ranks! HA!

See how silly this whole system is?

 

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Caitlin Tobias wrote:

 

Excellent idea, Pep, to have kudos only being given by LL, but then...for all sections!

As you (and I think you are the only one who figured it out....) have seen, it's possible to Rank Blackmail! I did a little experiment the last weeks (by some mistakenly interpreted as 'gaming' or more hilarious 'me being in a hitsquad') and yesterday I made my point.

I revoked kudos I have given  and the result was that one of our posters got demoted in rank almost the second I revoked the last one. (Sorry Storm, it was nothing personal!).

I would therefore suggest you all agree with me, or I will revoke more kudos and have you all demoted in ranks! HA!

See how silly this whole system is?

 

 

Lol, Caitlin, so that was you who chose Storm as a guinea pig? Tss tss... Poor Storm!

But I entirely agree that only LL should give kudos (and in all sections, yes, good idea). Otherwise it would be a complete mess and the door wide open for personal preferences or dislikes.

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Caitlin Tobias wrote:

Excellent idea, Pep, to have kudos only being given by LL, but then...for all sections!

As you (and I think you are the only one who figured it out....) have seen, it's possible to Rank Blackmail! I did a little experiment the last weeks (by some mistakenly interpreted as 'gaming' or more hilarious 'me being in a hitsquad') and yesterday I made my point.

I revoked kudos I have given  and the result was that one of our posters got demoted in rank almost the second I revoked the last one. (Sorry Storm, it was nothing personal!).

I would therefore suggest you all agree with me, or I will revoke more kudos and have you all demoted in ranks! HA!

See how silly this whole system is? 

101kudos.png

 

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Pep wrote:

Actually Void, this must be so, as cancelling the kudos you have given someone can lead to a demotion in their rank!!!


Pep (knows of this happening.)


PS I think kudos should only be given by Lindens in the Community Feedback subforum - but they should be done publicly as recognition of constructive comments.


PPS I would even be willing to accept a Linden kudos for this suggestion, despite my lack of desire for rank advancement.

 

I agree with CaTo .. Excellent Idea Pep.

(But I gave her the Kudos because I know how much you detest them)

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there's a small problem with that theory Cerise.... just because a person is helpful, does not make them supportive of the main cause, and associating their efforts also exemplifies them, giving them a larger voice within the community which can lead to more weight being given to those peoples negative perceptions....

for instance, most of the top three tiers of ranks, while being very helpful to others, are also very critical of a broad range of LL policies and technologies (or lack thereof), and there is a very strong feeling of dissent with LL that flavors their contributions.

surely THAT is not the association they are hoping to make? granted it tends to filter in well founded and thought out criticism and discount poorly crafted ones, and it doesn't actually remove it. You can see and feel the almost palpable air of discontent among those ranks, that also have facts and experience to back up their points of bitterness.

 

ETA:
@Pep:

time for me to do a little experimenting...

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No. It does not really matter if the identified people are generally supportive or not, as long as their output is filtered before their names are "borrowed". The most direct example is the access to the knowledge base. A person with no interest in contributing to it won't, and because all edits must be approved by an LL employee, someone who contributes in a negative way will not get far. In a less direct way, the company has better information about whose word spreads fastest, and hence what needs to be countered or supported first.

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Cerise wrote:

In a less direct way, the company has better information about whose word spreads fastest, and hence what needs to be countered or supported first.

 

I'll concede that knowledge base participation can be filtered like that, but that last line there that I quoted... think about it... to counter or support what being said by the voices that are driving opinion in the community, they have to actually DO something about it. If they attempt to bury it or gloss over it they're subject to backlash from those people, and things like Streisand Effect. sociologically, the change in behavior is to the advantage of the people doing the helping and driving opinion, because that's what LL has to respond too the quickest..... this works to improve LL's image, by responding to the major community trends that cause dissent, satisfying the greatest number of people.

rather than think of it as manipulation (everything is to some degree, and this goes both ways) it's much more productive IMO to treat it as mutually beneficial... for everyone... occasional users get to draw on community experience, the most prolific contributors who see a larger piece of the picture from the trenches point the way to what needs the most attention right now, and LL responds to their direction, and gets a filter for what the major issues are, no guessing required as in the past., making them more responsive (not just in theory but practice) and a large network of people who are passionate about the product and want others to enjoy it as well.

ok, so that's not how it's sold to the suits in marketing that want control and ROI, and you and I both know that... but we both also know you can't build a feedback driven system that only works to one positions advantage when there's a choice by either party

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Void Singer wrote:

 to counter or support what being said by the voices that are driving opinion in the community, they have to actually DO something about it.

Yes, but that is not a function of the platform. The data mining is a way to learn things that need to be done, and it provides the opportunity to stop criticism by addressing it before it gains traction. Obviously it cannot magically make the company act on that intelligence.

 

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