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Phil Deakins

SL and its Learning Curve

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It probably is if the ball came straight at you and you weren't quick enough to move out of the way. I've no idea how quick Martian brains works in the Earth's atmosphere ;)

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As you wish. If you're happy to admit to replying to details that you knew were subsequently changed before you replied to them, then ok. It doesn't show you in a favourable light, though, does it? But it's entirely your choice :D

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So to sum up, "steep" is a relative term. Depends on the person and also the purpose. 

As I always mention to educators who post about using SL with students -- the time that has to be invested in training students to use SL, to do anything other than be an observer, makes it unsuitable for most educational purposes. (At least these days when every minute has to be spent on developing testable knowledge and skills.) So, for that purpose I would say, SL learning curve is steep enough to take up too much instructional time. For entertainment purposes, not so much. 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Imo, slogging to the top of Everest is difficult because it's such a looooong, arduous, uphill slog over snow and ice. It's not comparable to a loooong walk along a more level surface. Therefore, it is inherently difficult, imo.

 

neither is inherently difficult. The mountain and the level surface are relatively easy/difficult for the same person

for a fully fit and healthy and well-prepared mountaineer slogging a mountain is relatively easier for them to achieve than say for an unfit and unprepared person with health issues to walk down to the shop and back

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I've no idea what you're talking about, again, still.  I formed my impression of your tone and about you from reading your words that you typed and not because of some third party's comments about your comments.  I don't know how to make it simpler.  

 

 

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wherorangi wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

Imo, slogging to the top of Everest is difficult because it's such a looooong, arduous, uphill slog over snow and ice. It's not comparable to a loooong walk along a more level surface. Therefore, it is inherently difficult, imo.

 

neither is inherently difficult. The mountain and the level surface are relatively easy/difficult for the same person

for a fully fit and healthy and well-prepared mountaineer slogging a mountain is relatively easier for them to achieve than say for an unfit and unprepared person with health issues to walk down to the shop and back

You're talking a load of crap. If doing something is hard, then it's difficult to do. A very very long and arduous slog up Everest is hard and difficult. Go and do it, and then me whether or not it was difficult. Better still, stop talking crap.

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Then you're not very good at forming impressions, are you? My first reply to you was perfectly good. It couldn't be faulted. My second one was short but not rude.

And if you still don't understand what it's about, I'll tell you (yet) again. You found fault with something the no longer existed. Then you were told that it no longer existed, after which you proceeded to find fault with it again. And finally, you appeared to claim to have known that it no longer existed even before you wrote the first post.

You're not very good at forums. are you? :D

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Phil Deakins wrote:


wherorangi wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

Imo, slogging to the top of Everest is difficult because it's such a looooong, arduous, uphill slog over snow and ice. It's not comparable to a loooong walk along a more level surface. Therefore, it is inherently difficult, imo.

 

neither is inherently difficult. The mountain and the level surface are relatively easy/difficult for the same person

for a fully fit and healthy and well-prepared mountaineer slogging a mountain is relatively easier for them to achieve than say for an unfit and unprepared person with health issues to walk down to the shop and back

You're talking a load of crap. If doing something is hard, then it's difficult to do. A very very long and arduous slog up Everest is hard and difficult. Go and do it, and then me whether or not it was difficult. Better still, stop talking crap.

how you getting on with the scripting task I posited for you earlier

is a really easy task to complete, not difficult at all, for me anyways. I can see tho how you might consider it to be difficult for you to complete, and why that might be

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I don't mind the 'learning curve' at all because I've discovered that once you learn something - however big or small - you never forget it (unless, like me, you've been away for  while but then you pick it all up again fairly quickly), particularly if you keep notes for the more seemingly complicated things.

It really depends on how much a person wants to do in SL. If they just want to explore the world, rent their own pad, and have a bit of fun as a 'tourist', then the basics are fine, but if they want to be creative, then I'm sure most would find the learning curve worth the effort.

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I don't recall a scripting task from you. Does it have anything to do with this coversation? I can't imagine that it does.

Most of the stuff I sell has one or more scripts in it, and they were all written by me. The scripts range from the very simple to the very complex. So there are two things to mention about your scripting task - (1) I simply wouldn't do it as a challenge, let along an unnecessary 'task'. If you want to assess my abilities as a scripter, visit my store. (2) whatever it was, someone who has been programming for 30 years in various languages, including machine code, would find it easy to do. That includes me, of course. So if it's easy for you, it would be an absolute doddle for me.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I don't recall a scripting task from you. Does it have anything to do with this coversation? I can't imagine that it does.

Most of the stuff I sell has one or more scripts in it, and they were all written by me. The scripts range from the very simple to the very complex. So there are two things to mention about your scripting task - (1) I simply wouldn't do it as a challenge, let along an unnecessary 'task'. If you want to assess my abilities as a scripter, visit my store. (2) whatever it was, someone who has been programming for 30 years in various languages, including machine code, would find it easy to do. That includes me, of course. So if it's easy for you, it would be an absolute doddle for me.

page 7. message 64

i be interested to see how long it would take you. if is a doddle and you are a 30 year veteran then you should be able to post the solution by tomorrow ?

is a challenge for sure. Is something you have to work out if dont already know. I dont have to work out the answers to these kinda problems. I already know the answers

same as is a challenge for new people to work stuff out when they start in SL for the first time. Whats easy/difficult is always relative to what we know already

 

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I am confused. Could someone please explain to me how using the arrow keys to move around, teleporting and chatting to whomever you happen into is using SL to the full? Am I being thick or something?

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Bitsy Buccaneer wrote:

I am confused. Could someone please explain to me how using the arrow keys to move around, teleporting and chatting to whomever you happen into is using SL to the full? Am I being thick or something?

No.

Yes.

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Bitsy Buccaneer wrote:

I am confused. Could someone please explain to me how using the arrow keys to move around, teleporting and chatting to whomever you happen into is using SL to the full? Am I being thick or something?

No, you're not being thick, but you're not up on all that has been said. There is a level of learning at which SL can be used to the full; i.e. go anywhere, do whatever is there and interact with people. That's the simple "using the arrow keys to move around, teleporting and chatting to whomever you happen into" level of learning. After that more can be learned to enable a person to get more out of SL. By 'to the full' I didn't mean the fullness of SL. I've said that before, and it's the part you're not up on. I doubt that very many people are able to use the fullness of SL. Examples: I think I'd be right in saying that most users are unable to write scripts, make animations, etc. I've been here coming up to 10 years, and there's an awful lot that I still don't know how to do, and I've no desire to know how to do. And yet I've used SL 'to the full' right from the the start.

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wherorangi wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

I don't recall a scripting task from you. Does it have anything to do with this coversation? I can't imagine that it does.

Most of the stuff I sell has one or more scripts in it, and they were all written by me. The scripts range from the very simple to the very complex. So there are two things to mention about your scripting task - (1) I simply wouldn't do it as a challenge, let along an unnecessary 'task'. If you want to assess my abilities as a scripter, visit my store. (2) whatever it was, someone who has been programming for 30 years in various languages, including machine code, would find it easy to do. That includes me, of course. So if it's easy for you, it would be an absolute doddle for me.

page 7. message 64

i be interested to see how long it would take you. if is a doddle and you are a 30 year veteran then you should be able to post the solution by tomorrow ?

is a challenge for sure. Is something you have to work out if dont already know. I dont have to work out the answers to these kinda problems. I already know the answers

same as is a challenge for new people to work stuff out when they start in SL for the first time. Whats easy/difficult is always relative to what we know already

There was no challenge in that post. You didn't ask me to do anything. You may be interested to see how long it would take me, but you're not going to find out because I'm not playing silly games with you. You don't deserve it. If you wan't to know my programming abilities, go to my store and play with the stuff there. Every script, from simple to complex, was written by me from scratch. By 'complex' I mean from the point of view of SL, but nothing in SL is anywhere near as complex as some of the major programmes I've written single-handedly, which include two multi-user online adventure games, one of which was graphic long before SL came out, and both of which were hybrids; i.e. a high level language together with machine code. They weren't the only hybrids I wrote either. The probability is that your programming abilities, of which you're silly enough boast, only scratch the surface of programming, and you are a relative beginner.

Anyway, give me a shout when you've written the online multi-user text adventure game, and if it works we'll test you on a graphic one. Or even give me shout when you're capable of writing even a very simple programme in machine code. Or perhaps even give me a shout when you can realistically call yourself a competent programmer. You choose, but if it's the latter you'll be required to prove it.

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I have no idea what the hell you're talking about but it's not reality. 

 

I'm entitled to respond to things said directly to me whether you changed your mind afterwards.  People are entitled to reply to things directed at them.  And I've had enough of your silly "gotcha-ism".  It's a discussion not a competition and frankly you come across as highly aggressive, condescending and simply looking for a fight.   You're not good at this human interaction thing are you?

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You still haven't understood <sigh>. The "reality" is:-

I wrote quite a lot of posts in this thread, including, later in the thread, some to say that I'd revised my opinion. Then you came along, read the first part of the thread and replied to my original opinion. I replied that you were replying to something that no longer existed. You were late, but you didn't seem to like being shown that you were out of date, so you chose to argue about it. And you're still arguing the toss over it. I didn't change my mind afterward you posted, as you seem to think. I'd changed my mind, and posted that I'd changed it, before you entered into it - before you even read the first post. That's all it was. You can go back and read it all if your memory isn't so good, and you'll find that that's the reality. It's all still there.

Don't be so defensive. Accept that you were late and hadn't realised that things had changed. My first reply to you explained it perfectly well. Go back and read it if you don't believe me.

 

 

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No.

'To the full' isn't time dependant at all.

'Inherent' is never subjective. For instance, climbing Everest is inherently dangerous; i.e. it has built-in dangers.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


wherorangi wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

I don't recall a scripting task from you. Does it have anything to do with this coversation? I can't imagine that it does.

Most of the stuff I sell has one or more scripts in it, and they were all written by me. The scripts range from the very simple to the very complex. So there are two things to mention about your scripting task - (1) I simply wouldn't do it as a challenge, let along an unnecessary 'task'. If you want to assess my abilities as a scripter, visit my store. (2) whatever it was, someone who has been programming for 30 years in various languages, including machine code, would find it easy to do. That includes me, of course. So if it's easy for you, it would be an absolute doddle for me.

page 7. message 64

i be interested to see how long it would take you. if is a doddle and you are a 30 year veteran then you should be able to post the solution by tomorrow ?

is a challenge for sure. Is something you have to work out if dont already know. I dont have to work out the answers to these kinda problems. I already know the answers

same as is a challenge for new people to work stuff out when they start in SL for the first time. Whats easy/difficult is always relative to what we know already

By 'complex' I mean from the point of view of SL, but nothing in SL is anywhere near as complex as some of the major programmes I've written single-handedly, which include two multi-user online adventure games, one of which was graphic long before SL came out, and both of which were hybrids; i.e. a high level language together with machine code. They weren't the only hybrids I wrote either. The probability is that your programming abilities, of which you're silly enough boast, only scratch the surface of programming, and you are a relative beginner.

Anyway, give me a shout when you've written the online multi-user text adventure game, and if it works we'll test you on a graphic one. Or even give me shout when you're capable of writing even a very simple programme in machine code. Or perhaps even give me a shout when you can realistically call yourself a competent programmer. You choose, but if it's the latter you'll be required to prove it.

is not a boast. Is a fact. I do know

the posted codes demonstrate algorithmic complexity. In this case O(n) complexity. For both the encoder which is posted and the decoder which is not posted

as a games programmer yourself apparently, you would know the significance of this algorithm to games programming. And know that it is a pretty basic 101 game engine algorithm found in pretty much any game engine API. Which any competent games programmer knows how its used, why its used and how to write it

as you say tho, you write furniture scripts, which is also a fact

+

what I always find interesting on the internets is that whereever there are lots of self-taught amateurs how they always rate themselves on what code they have written

when asked about algorithms and to show in code their understanding of stuff like O(n) vs O(n2) then they have no idea. And often start rabbit on about their ability to type lines of syntax into a text editor

+

ps

if you do know how to write this decoder, being a game programmer, then I give you a prize of 100L. Like the encoder, the decoder has to be O(n) complexity as well to win the prize tho 

 

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

No.

'To the full' isn't time dependant at all.

'Inherent' is never subjective. For instance, climbing Everest is inherently dangerous; i.e. it has built-in dangers.

Didn't you say that climbing Everest was inherently difficult, and that's why it was dangerous?

Finding something "difficult" is by its nature subjective. Apa Sherpa, an experienced climbing sirdar who's climbed Everest at least 21 times, would find climbing Everest far less difficult than most of us.

Because of it's inherent qualities of height, steepness and thin air almost anyone would consider climbing Everest difficult so it's probably a bad example. On the other hand, let's consider one of my cameras:



This is a Rolleiflex 2.8C, circa 1954. If I was to give it to someone today and ask them to take some pictures with it, most people, including many enthusiastic photographers, would be completely flummoxed by it to the point of not even knowing how to begin the process. They might not even be able to take the lens cap off. (Incidentally, in this stock photo the lens cap is on upside down.) Their learning curve would be near-vertical. They'd find using it difficult.

It's not inherently difficult to use, though. The actions you need to perform to use it aren't arduous and it's simply a matter of learning the steps. When it was built most people who would be in the market for a high-end camera would be very familiar with using a manual camera, know the principles of a twin-lens reflex and roll film, and at least have seen a Rolleiflex in action before. It wouldn't have been considered a difficult camera to use. I didn't find using it difficult after I got it and I'm not some sort of photographic savant by any means - I was just already familiar with manual roll-film twin-lens reflexes. 

However, far fewer people have this sort of knowledge already today. In fact there are probably many people who've never even used a camera that takes film now.  They'd find using this camera difficult, not because of the camera itself but because they lack the specialized knowledge needed to use it effectively.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

'To the full' isn't time dependant at all.

Wasn't talking time, was talking depth. Full =/= Empty, right?


Phil Deakins wrote:

 

'Inherent' is never subjective.

That's weird, because you've only used this word in subjective sentences. You would find climbing Everest difficult, my shiny new Everest-climbing-robot sees it as a walk in the park - because that's how it was designed. ;)

It seems you may be getting stuck in absolutist terms. Don't worry- my even newer, even shinier Phil-rescuing robot can handle it no problem.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Bitsy Buccaneer wrote:

I am confused. Could someone please explain to me how using the arrow keys to move around, teleporting and chatting to whomever you happen into is using SL to the full? Am I being thick or something?

No, you're not being thick, but you're not up on all that has been said. There is a level of learning at which SL can be used to the full; i.e. go anywhere, do whatever is there and interact with people. That's the simple "
using the arrow keys to move around, teleporting and chatting to whomever you happen into
" level of learning. After that more can be learned to enable a person to get more out of SL. By 'to the full' I didn't mean the fullness of SL. I've said that before, and it's the part you're not up on. I doubt that very many people are able to use the fullness of SL. Examples: I think I'd be right in saying that most users are unable to write scripts, make animations, etc. I've been here coming up to 10 years, and there's an awful lot that I still don't know how to do, and I've no desire to know how to do. And yet I've used SL 'to the full' right from the the start.

That is the strangest definition of "using [something] to the full" I've ever heard of.

Now I'm wondering what your definition of "you're not up on all that has been said" is. Most people I think would hear that as an assertion that I hadn't read it all or hadn't read it carefully enough. I did read the entire thread and did my best to read it carefully and follow its twists and turns and convolutions. Perhaps the phrase means something else in your mind.

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I had a box camera rather like that when I was a kid. Absolutely adored it and was very cross when my mum made me use a "better" one instead. The supposed upgrade was a thin, soulless rectangle which I loathed with every fiber of my 9 year old steampunk heart. If only it had been fashionable then. :matte-motes-smile:

It was a roll your own and since I didn't know automatic I didn't think twice about it. The focusing mechanism wasn't hard on mine (which had been my grandfather's). It probably would confuse a lot of people today, but just looking at the picture I can remember how to use one. Haven't thought about that wee beauty in decades, thanks for the memories Theresa.

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