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Phil Deakins

SL and its Learning Curve

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 

Lastly if American's were "less" intelligent as you imply, why do so high of a proportion of the worlds break throughs in innovation, technology and invention come from America? 

Just a list of some important inventions of the 20th century... I've thrown "the old countries" into a bunch.

 

Nuclear power - Yurp

PC - Murica

Aeroplane - Murica

Automobile - Yurp

Rocketry - Yurp

Antibiotics - Yurp

Television - Yurp

Internet - Murica

Radio - Yurp

Refrigerator - Yurp

Mobile phone - Murica

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Phil Deakins wrote:


to which I replied,
"Just out of interest, the shoes example would confuse the hell out of me too, and I've been here for 10 years, but I get along just fine without that knowledge. I learned the 'other' after being here a short time - after I'd learned to get around, etc. None of it represents a steep learning curve."
You actually quoted that reply. It's obvious, of course, that, as it was a reply to your post about shoes, it refered to the things you wrote about shoes, such as "spikey weirdness", "orange cubes", "slide into position", "alpha that looks like a t-shirt", etc. etc., and not the simple act of putting on a pair of shoes
.

 

Okay, let me try to explain.

1) "Orange cubes" (every shoe in Second Life that's more complicated than painting your foot has the icon of an orange cube in your inventory, just like every other object in Second Life);

2) "Spiky weirdness" (Go ahead, put on the shoe-iconned foot shaper for a pair of high-heeled shoes and see if you can describe it as anything else);

3) "Slide into position" (it's extremely rare for a non-rigged shoe to attach into perfect position the first time and so it needs to be edited with the vector arrows of the "Move" command);

and

4)"Alpha that looks like a t-shirt" (What can I say? They're called "alphas" and the icon looks like a T-shirt. That icon confused a well-known forumite who has been in Second Life as least as long as you've been.) --

are all part and parcel of the act of putting on a pair of women's shoes in Second Life. There are witnesses in this forum who agree that the description is accurate. And that process is what you said "would confuse the hell out of you."

I did not mean to say that you'd have trouble putting on shoes in any other setting. I'm quite sure that in Real Life you can put on your shoes with no assistance and even get them on the correct feet well over 90 percent of the time, because the act of putting on shoes in real life is a simple act. (Well, unless it's a horse you're trying to put them on but that's neither here nor there.)

However, it is abundantly clear that the equivalent act in Second Life is not simple, and you said in your own words that it would confuse you. I even said, in so many words, "I'm certainly not saying this is a shortcoming on your part." My point was that putting on shoes in Second Life, like many other things, is far more complicated than such a simple task should be in an application "without a steep learning curve."

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To answer your question, I started the thread to state my point of view that SL does not have a steep learning curve, and also to ask what people mean when they say that SL does have a steep learning curve. Both of those were clear in my OP. So I'll defend that position unless people show it to be mistaken.

My last post was written to a person who always finds fault with people in the forum and, in this particular case, she was blatantly wrong by inventing a sentence, making out that I'd actually written it, and proceeding to criticise me for it by belittling me. You may have noticed that my reply to her first post in the thread was perfectly normal - no belittling or anything like that. I pointed out why I thought her examples weren't valid in this particular discussion, but I didn't write anything negative about her until she made an attempt at belittling me by making something up and criticing ME for writing it. It was so wrong that I genuinely thought that she might have had a few drinks when she wrote it - genuinely. It's all there if you care to actually follow it.

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You can explain all you like, Theresa, but you wrote what you wrote, and it was totally wrong.


Theresa Tennyson wrote:

I did not mean to say that you'd have trouble putting on shoes in any other setting. I'm quite sure that in Real Life you can put on your shoes with no assistance and even get them on the correct feet well over 90 percent of the time, because the act of putting on shoes in real life
is
a simple act. (Well, unless it's a horse you're trying to put them on but that's neither here nor there.)

What you might have meant to say, and what you did say, are completely different. Go back and check if you're not sure. To be honest, I still think you meant to say what you actually said, and that you're just trying to dig yourself out of a gross error.

The act of putting shoes on in SL is as simple as putting them on in RL. What you described would have confused the hell out of me after 10 years of being in SL. So I suggest you go back and follow our posts and see where you went very wrong, albeit it's typical of you.

Incidentally, you are wrong again - you should have said 100% of the time. Even after being shot down, you're still trying to make a bit of ground that isn't there.

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I started the thread to state my point of view that SL does not have a steep learning curve, and also to ask what people mean when they say that SL does have a steep learning curve. Both of those were clear in my OP. So I'll defend that position unless people show it to be mistaken.

Going by the vast number of times the curve in question is mentioned, we can conclude it is there. Just because you don't see it and have not experienced it, does not mean it is not there. It is.

So the remaining question is what that curve exactly is. It's a strange concept, since I see no "curve", People (probably) mean SL is more difficult to grasp than the average social media platform or computer game.

A small illustration...

1) There are multiple ways of buying items, all involve a near impossible search.

2) I'm not very familiar with either social media or computer games, but I am fairly confident that in every single computergame where you can change an outfit, you can click on a button showing the outfit in a very easy to find "clothes" menu to put it on. Not only are there ten ways to do things in SL, every one of those ten things can often be done different ways. To confuse the user even more, different people will prefer and advice different things and for some reason they will try to convince the user their way is by far the best and will use a wide range of motivations, Some of those might be true, some myth, some blatant lies. All are confusing.

3) Then when someone finally manages to put on their shoes, they will get reactions from different people, half of them saying the shoes look good, half of them saying the user is "lagging them out".(whatever that means!)

4) So once the user has finally figured out the only way to get what they like is to build it themselves, they are faced with a choice of prim builds (WHAT is THAT?), sculpties (HUH?), or mesh (HMMM?). Doing the sensible thing the user decides to go for mesh. So they can choose again... Mesh (Yes that is clear after a day of browsing), rigged mesh (Is that something unfair?), fitted mesh (Oh that sounds fancy!), or wait, we now also have something called "Bento". Fancy is good, so fitted mesh it is, but hey, that involves off grid programs! Now the user is faced with (of course) another choice. 3ds Max seems to be the gaming industry standard, Maya is well represented as well, but Blender is good too..and it's free! Blender it is. After reading up on Blender and SL, it seems the user is better off purchasing a (fairly cheap) addon for Blender.

etc etc....

Interface wise it's not much better. Just look at all the options we get. There are more options in the menus and debug settings than I can tweak in a week. Even after ten years of SL I'm pretty sure I don't understand most of them.

For me the learning curve wasn't "steep". Some things are pretty much "up my alley", such as 3d building. More importantly, I took my time. That made the slope less steep, but it did make it very long.

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Kate Amdahl wrote:

Phil, did you start this thread in the interest of having a conversation and everyone broadening their understanding, or to have an opportunity to shout down and insult people who disagree with you? I haven't spent much time in these forums in the past, though I've been enthusiastic about Second Life for a decade now, and posts like your most recent one make me rethink participating at all.

I'm interested in your point of view. There are a lot of things you've said that I wouldn't agree with, but it's worth hearing the perspective of "Hey, you can get around and talk pretty easily; people make too much out of all the other stuff." That's not my point of view, but that's exactly why it's interesting. What
isn't
interesting is rude commentary about Theresa, who has been spirited but not unkind, and who has done a really good job of explaining the 
other
perspective, the one you don't have and might learn from.

If you want to have a real conversation, please don't debate every point that doesn't reflect your precise thinking: just add what you have to add and trust that we're listening. If you just want to try to win the thread with bluster and prejudice, then, ugh, either you can go someplace else or I will. I'm not sticking around for that.

I don't expect this message to do any good, because I don't think you're here to share ideas or learn anything, but I hope you show me up and prove I've underestimated you.

^^^\ Kate /^^^


rofl

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Phil Deakins wrote:

You can explain all you like, Theresa, but you wrote what you wrote, and it was totally wrong.

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

I did not mean to say that you'd have trouble putting on shoes in any other setting. I'm quite sure that in Real Life you can put on your shoes with no assistance and even get them on the correct feet well over 90 percent of the time, because the act of putting on shoes in real life
is
a simple act. (Well, unless it's a horse you're trying to put them on but that's neither here nor there.)

What you might have
meant
to say, and what you did say, are completely different. Go back and check if you're not sure. To be honest, I still think you meant to say what you actually said, and that you're just trying to dig yourself out of a gross error.

The act of putting shoes on in SL is as simple as putting them on in RL.
What you described would have confused the hell out of me after 10 years of being in SL. So I suggest you go back and follow our posts and see where you went very wrong, albeit it's typical of you.

Incidentally, you are wrong again - you should have said 100% of the time. Even after being shot down, you're still trying to make a bit of ground that isn't there.

 

The bolded phrase is your problem child. It's completely unsupported. I described exactly what someone inexperienced in Second Life would see and need to do in order to put on a pair of women's shoes.

You said what I described was confusing. Now, in order to support your point you need either prove what I said isn't what someone inexperienced in Second Life would see and need to do to put on a pair of shoes - in which case you need to say what they really would see and have to do - or show that the process is actually simple for them.

Meanwhile, this is an exact copy of the instructions from a set of older shoes that were given out at a freebie place. These are comparatively thorough instructions - most shoes don't come with much at all - and still see how much they expect the person trying them on to know already:

Your pumps include two versions - one with a regular invisiprim, suitable for all Second Life viewers which should be worn with the enclosed shoe fitter, and one without invisiprims, the V2 version. These should be worn with the fitter and the alpha foot hider included. The V2 shoes are suitable for Second Life viewers that support alpha layers.

You're already grouchy so I won't suggest the other way that your bolded statement could be considered true.

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Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

For me the learning curve wasn't "steep". Some things are pretty much "up my alley", such as 3d building. More importantly, I took my time. That made the slope less steep, but it did make it very long.

yes agree

is a XY thing. Where X is the number of things to learn, and Y is the time taken to learn the number of things

when Y is shorter than some other Y then the learning curve to X is steeper

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Kate Amdahl wrote:

Phil

 

dont mind Phil. You get used to it after a while. Filling in the gaps for him that he doesnt always consider before asking his questions. Which if he had thought about it a bit more beforehand then he wouldnt have asked it in the ways he does when he doesnt think stuff thru to start with

like his OP question for example: "I didn't find a steep learning curve at all, let alone a very steep one, so I want to ask what it is that people mean when they say that SL has a steep learning curve; i.e. what is steep about it?"

+

altho sometimes he just asks stuff in the way he does just to get a convo going

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A steep learning curve? I think it all depends on what part of the elephant you are looking at. Just want to explore and chat? - relatively easy if you've played video games. Other goals are maybe not so easy to achieve.

When I say that SL has a steep learning curve it is based on my own experiences. I'm still finding out things. It was only relatively recently that I learned you could move the sun around in the heavens and adjust DOF. I didn't learn these things inworld, I learned them by googling "how to take better pictures in Second Life". I still have problems opening boxes. :)

I suspect those who assimilate easily are smarter than the average bear. Me, I'm only still here because I'm stubborn.

 

 

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Rufferta wrote:

A steep learning curve? I think it all depends on what part of the elephant you are looking at. Just want to explore and chat? - relatively easy if you've played video games. Other goals are maybe not so easy to achieve.

When I say that SL has a steep learning curve it is based on my own experiences. I'm still finding out things. It was only relatively recently that I learned you could move the sun around in the heavens and adjust DOF. I didn't learn these things inworld, I learned them by googling "how to take better pictures in Second Life". I still have problems opening boxes.
:)

I suspect those who assimilate easily are smarter than the average bear. Me, I'm only still here because I'm stubborn.

 

 

defo agree about the stubborn part (:

is heaps of stuff as well I dunno either really. Sometimes bc it just hurts my head to think about

and other times even when I do spend ages on something, a brick still understands it better than I do

in that sense where sometimes the more I discover about something then my understanding of it ends up less than what I understood to begin with. Like when I knew nothing about it at all my understanding was 0. Now that I know somethings about it my understanding is now currently -2

+

i think also that pretty much everybody gets what we mean we say "steep" in this kinda convo

except maybe for a Level 0 Pedanticist. Who maybe will come along soon and school us all in the correct usage of the word "steep"

so i thought I would chuck in some mathiness stuffs to help any pedanticists out with that

(:

   

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Good grief. You just don't learn, do you? Needless to say, I'm in red.


Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

You can explain all you like, Theresa, but you wrote what you wrote, and it was totally wrong.

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

I did not mean to say that you'd have trouble putting on shoes in any other setting. I'm quite sure that in Real Life you can put on your shoes with no assistance and even get them on the correct feet well over 90 percent of the time, because the act of putting on shoes in real life
is
a simple act. (Well, unless it's a horse you're trying to put them on but that's neither here nor there.)

What you might have
meant
to say, and what you did say, are completely different. Go back and check if you're not sure. To be honest, I still think you meant to say what you actually said, and that you're just trying to dig yourself out of a gross error.

The act of putting shoes on in SL is as simple as putting them on in RL.
What you described would have confused the hell out of me after 10 years of being in SL. So I suggest you go back and follow our posts and see where you went very wrong, albeit it's typical of you.

Incidentally, you are wrong again - you should have said 100% of the time. Even after being shot down, you're still trying to make a bit of ground that isn't there.

 

The bolded phrase is your problem child. 
Correction: I don't have a problem child. You do. You actually have a problem hole that you can't dig yourself out of.
It's completely unsupported. 
Don't be ridiculous.
I described exactly what someone inexperienced in Second Life would see and need to do in order to put on a pair of women's shoes.
That's right. And I said that that doesn't happen at the beginning where the alleged steep learning curve is.

You said what I described was confusing. 
You're making stuff up again. Wake up! What I said was "
it would confuse the hell out of me
". Notice the difference? Probably not. It's hard to see when you're so deep inside a hole.
Now, in order to support your point you need either prove what I said
isn't
what someone inexperienced in Second Life would see and need to do to put on a pair of shoes - in which case you need to say what they really
would
see and have to do - or show that the process is actually simple
for them.
Nonsense. I only need to repeat that what you described about putting on shoes in SL "
would confuse the hell out of me".
And I only need to repeat it because you made up an alternative and claimed that I said it. I don't deny that what you described is a mini steep curve but, as I said when you first wrote it, it's something that happens a little later in SL life, and doesn't apply to this thread.

Meanwhile, this is an exact copy of the instructions from a set of older shoes that were given out at a freebie place. These are comparatively thorough instructions - most shoes don't come with much at all - and
still
see how much they expect the person trying them on to know already:

Your pumps include two versions - one with a regular invisiprim, suitable for all Second Life viewers which should be worn with the enclosed shoe fitter, and one without invisiprims, the V2 version. These should be worn with the fitter and the alpha foot hider included. The V2 shoes are suitable for Second Life viewers that support alpha layers.

That's all well and good but it brings nothing to this discussion. Your only way out of the hole you dug for yourself is to accept that you made a mistake when you made up a statement and claimed that I said it.

You're already grouchy so I won't suggest the other way that your bolded statement could be considered true.

Heh. I'm not at all grouchy. In fact, I'm quite enjoying wathcing you try to dig yourself out of the hole
:)

 

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wherorangi wrote:


Kate Amdahl wrote:

Phil

 

dont mind Phil. You get used to it after a while. Filling in the gaps for him that he doesnt always consider before asking his questions. Which if he had thought about it a bit more beforehand then he wouldnt have asked it in the ways he does when he doesnt think stuff thru to start with

like his OP question for example:
"I didn't find a steep learning curve at all, let alone a very steep one, so I want to ask what it is that people mean when they say that SL has a steep learning curve; i.e. what is steep about it?"

+

altho sometimes he just asks stuff in the way he does just to get a convo going

You're talking crap. My question was very well considered over months of seeing people talk about the "steep learning curve" that, imo, doesn't exist. That's unlike this reply of yours which is just sour grapes from the previous time.

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Rufferta wrote:

A steep learning curve? I think it all depends on what part of the elephant you are looking at. Just want to explore and chat? - relatively easy if you've played video games. Other goals are maybe not so easy to achieve.

When I say that SL has a steep learning curve it is based on my own experiences. I'm still finding out things. It was only relatively recently that I learned you could move the sun around in the heavens and adjust DOF. I didn't learn these things inworld, I learned them by googling "how to take better pictures in Second Life". I still have problems opening boxes.
:)

I suspect those who assimilate easily are smarter than the average bear. Me, I'm only still here because I'm stubborn.

I haven't suggested that SL doesn't have a learning curve. From time to time, we all learn things we didn't know, regardless of how long we've been in SL. There's more learning early on, of course. My statement is that the initial curve isn't steep, as is often suggested.

The way I understand the phrase 'steep learning curve' is that learning to use SL is quite difficult. That's what I disagree with. Learning to use SL isn't difficult at all. Learning everything very quickly would be a steep learning curve, but that doesn't happen. We quickly and easily learn the few things that get us going, and then add more learning as time goes on.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


wherorangi wrote:

like his OP question for example:
"I didn't find a steep learning curve at all, let alone a very steep one, so I want to ask what it is that people mean when they say that SL has a steep learning curve; i.e. what is steep about it?"

+

altho sometimes he just asks stuff in the way he does just to get a convo going

You're talking crap. My question was very well considered over months of seeing people talk about the "steep learning curve" that, imo, doesn't exist.

you just confirmed what I said

your question was rhetorical

every response you have given to anyone pointing to a particular thing that they empirically find steep thru their own experience, you rebut by circular argument

your circular argument is: "In my opinion I dont see how that can be considered steep. My own empirical experience is that I dont find that steep at all, in my opinion"

 

eta ps

your question was quite woolly I think

like you never defined what you meant by "steep" and how the meaning of this translates to your own experience on which you have formed your opinion

 

 

 

 

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I don't think the average newcomer expects to spend the first day or two just learning how to walk around and move their camera. I also don't think any newcomer plans out a "slow route" or staging process in learning features. This all strikes me as being unrealistic.

Especially, very few newcomers have measurable technical experience. They don't understand networks or latency, often don't understand the nature of a "virtual world", "server-side physics" or even "buyer beware". They don't understand GPUs, HTTP vs. UDP, or how to effectively use search tools.

When I first played Minecraft, I was able to hunt a few pigs, knock down a dozen trees and build a log cabin within about 20 minutes. That matched the expectations I had - I carved out a quick existance for myself in some green landscape with monsters.

When I first joined Second Life, it took me three weeks before I knew how to teleport, and I met players a few months older than me who didn't know how to alt-cam. I spent a long time wandering around in grey nothingness, not realising at the time that my 16Mb graphics card and dial-up connection (cut me some slack, it was 2006!) was inadequate. I came from other virtual worlds and even other 3D chat applications and a student studying web development - I still fell a long way short. It took me about a week before I felt safe mixing with other users, being entirely unsure of what the dynamic would be.

Users don't join to experience a world anymore, being slow-learning tourists and explorers (if they ever did), they join to accomplish a goal - find a girlfriend, have a family, become the best zombiekiller. It's impossible to even start on goals like this within a users first 24 hours on the service.

You can argue about subjective knowledge and paths all you like, but you can never predict the route a new user will try to take if they see EVERY SINGLE path is immediately available. You won't be able to understand the intimidation felt by new users as they see the huge pile of esoteric words, brands and menu options that emerge very quickly as you first experience Second Life.

Look at this post, made today by a super-enthusiastic person - how do you even begin to answer all these questions? Can you do it without using words only more advanced users would know - so, without sending the user out to do additional learning just to accomplish a change of outfit.

I dare you to try. :)

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Good grief. You just don't learn, do you? Needless to say, I'm in red.

Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

You can explain all you like, Theresa, but you wrote what you wrote, and it was totally wrong.

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

I did not mean to say that you'd have trouble putting on shoes in any other setting. I'm quite sure that in Real Life you can put on your shoes with no assistance and even get them on the correct feet well over 90 percent of the time, because the act of putting on shoes in real life
is
a simple act. (Well, unless it's a horse you're trying to put them on but that's neither here nor there.)

What you might have
meant
to say, and what you did say, are completely different. Go back and check if you're not sure. To be honest, I still think you meant to say what you actually said, and that you're just trying to dig yourself out of a gross error.

The act of putting shoes on in SL is as simple as putting them on in RL.
What you described would have confused the hell out of me after 10 years of being in SL. So I suggest you go back and follow our posts and see where you went very wrong, albeit it's typical of you.

Incidentally, you are wrong again - you should have said 100% of the time. Even after being shot down, you're still trying to make a bit of ground that isn't there.

 

The bolded phrase is your problem child. 
Correction: I don't have a problem child. You do. You actually have a problem hole that you can't dig yourself out of.
It's completely unsupported. 
Don't be ridiculous.
I described exactly what someone inexperienced in Second Life would see and need to do in order to put on a pair of women's shoes.
That's right. And I said that that doesn't happen at the beginning where the alleged steep learning curve is.

You said what I described was confusing. 
You're making stuff up again. Wake up! What I said was "
it would confuse the hell out of me
". Notice the difference? Probably not. It's hard to see when you're so deep inside a hole.
Now, in order to support your point you need either prove what I said
isn't
what someone inexperienced in Second Life would see and need to do to put on a pair of shoes - in which case you need to say what they really
would
see and have to do - or show that the process is actually simple
for them.
Nonsense. I only need to repeat that what you described about putting on shoes in SL "
would confuse the hell out of me".
And I only need to repeat it because you made up an alternative and claimed that I said it. I don't deny that what you described is a mini steep curve but, as I said when you first wrote it, it's something that happens a little later in SL life, and doesn't apply to this thread.

Meanwhile, this is an exact copy of the instructions from a set of older shoes that were given out at a freebie place. These are comparatively thorough instructions - most shoes don't come with much at all - and
still
see how much they expect the person trying them on to know already:

Your pumps include two versions - one with a regular invisiprim, suitable for all Second Life viewers which should be worn with the enclosed shoe fitter, and one without invisiprims, the V2 version. These should be worn with the fitter and the alpha foot hider included. The V2 shoes are suitable for Second Life viewers that support alpha layers.

That's all well and good but it brings nothing to this discussion. Your only way out of the hole you dug for yourself is to accept that you made a mistake when you made up a statement and claimed that I said it.

You're already grouchy so I won't suggest the other way that your bolded statement could be considered true.

Heh. I'm not at all grouchy. In fact, I'm quite enjoying wathcing you try to dig yourself out of the hole
:)

 

Yes, yes, I'll admit it! As I was paraphrasing you I should have written the paraphrase in single quotes instead of double quotes. Now address my points.

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wherorangi wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:


wherorangi wrote:

like his OP question for example:
"I didn't find a steep learning curve at all, let alone a very steep one, so I want to ask what it is that people mean when they say that SL has a steep learning curve; i.e. what is steep about it?"

+

altho sometimes he just asks stuff in the way he does just to get a convo going

You're talking crap. My question was very well considered over months of seeing people talk about the "steep learning curve" that, imo, doesn't exist.

you just confirmed what I said

your question was rhetorical

every response you have given to anyone pointing to a particular thing that they empirically find steep thru their own experience, you rebut by circular argument

your circular argument is:
"In my opinion I dont see how that can be considered steep. My own empirical experience is that I dont find that steep at all, in my opinion"

Just because someone gives an example of what makes SL a steep learning curve, doesn't mean that it is correct example, or that I agree with it. I asked what people meant by it, and I responded according to what they said. Nothing wrong there then. I am not obliged to agree if I think it doesn't fit the bill. For instance, Theresa provided 2 examples of what she considers to be part of SL's steep learning curve, and I disagreed, and explained why I disagreed. Nothing wrong there either.

Then, of course, Theresa decided to put words in my mouth and attempt to belittle me for saying them. She was silly to think that she might get away with that.

eta ps

your question was quite woolly I think

like you never defined what you meant by "steep" and how the meaning of this translates to your own experience on which you have formed your opinion

Yes I did define it, albeit not in the first post. If you didn't see what I understand by 'steep learning curve', you haven't been reading the thread, or you have a poor memory.

To make my thinking perfectly clear (again), my understanding, when people say that SL has a steep learning curve, is that getting to use SL perfectly adequately (i.e. in the beginning) is a steep learning curve. In other words not easy. When the phrase is used, it's said about the initial experience in SL, and I disagree with it - hence this thread. Theresa provided 2 examples of the steep learning curve, and I disagreed that they occured in the very early part of SL experience. They were perfectly valid a little later in a new user's SL experience, but only after the new user had learned to use SL perfectly adeguately. What new user wants to know about replacement feet and shoes to fit replacement feet? And even when they do find out about them, it's not a steep learning curve to get to use SL to the full. It's a case of, 'Ooo. That's good. I want some of those'. It's something new to them that's all. Just like those rallies were something new to us. It certainly doesn't help anyone to use SL, as in 'SL has a steep learning curve'. It only helps someone to enjoy SL more.

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 Part of my brain agrees with the steep learning curve. The other part accepts this curve and took the time to learn. My first avatar was made over 10 years ago and yeah..., it was sometimes hard to figure stuff out. Back then things were simple, less possibilities and we never heard of Windlight settings, mesh or sculpties. We did not have that many settings and there were less ways to do stuff like dressing. Maybe that is my luck, I got in early. 

Today SL is way more complicated but you live and learn. Aren't all things worthwhile complicated and hard? If it were easy... would it keep you playing for a long time, or 10 years even, like myself? I doubt it would.

Yes, I do think the way things are done in SL could be more simple without making it less attractive. That many ways to put something on, that many ways to unpack something... things like that make it hard on a new resident. It clutters up the viewer.

Let's talk about how much of these complicated things we ourselves are responsible for...? Much of it if you ask me! We wanted more, we created more. We wanted mesh hands, now we want mesh bodies. We want it all and we pay the price. We found loopholes and used them, now they are a part of our virtual world. 

In 10 years I was willing to go from a total noob into a content creator, making mesh ( yep, meaning I mastered Blender and Photoshop etc. too). I make textures, can do a bit of coding, a bit of rigging and I can dress myself, by myself ;)

Was it worth all that time and effort? Yes, it was and still is! There is no virtual world that has this much to offer and no other world makes me feel like home the way SL does. 

My advice to people that find SL hard to learn is to hang in there. Master one thing at a time, ask other residents if you get confused. Use the forum, use Google and You Tube. You are almost never the first person that has that question, it has probably been asked before. And... don't forget to have fun!

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Yes, yes, I'll admit it! As I was paraphrasing you I should have written the paraphrase in single quotes instead of double quotes. Now address my points.

Aha. Finally, you admit you got it wrong. But, even if you'd used single quotes, it would still have amounted to the same thing. It would still have you quoting me for something I didn't say. What you tried to belittle me for was not something I said. It was something you made up. Had you stuck with what I said, we wouldn't have had these posts. What you should have done is respond to what I said, explaining why you disagree, etc., just like I did with your first post.

I already addressed your points. Put simply, the examples you gave do not, imo, occur at the start of a new user's SL experience. Yes, they do occur, perhaps quite soon, but what new user wants to know about replacement feet, for instance? When they come across some good looking feet, or someone mentions replacement feet, then they may be interested to learn about them. By that time, they'll have already moved up the gentle slope and be using SL perfectly adequately.

I'd agree that some new users, especially males, first arrive in SL with the intention of sex and, if they find that to be a steep learning curve at the very start, ok, but they are not the average new users.

There's a lot to learn in SL and, if it is all squashed into a short space of time, then it would be a steep learning curve. But we don't generally learn SL like that. We pick up things as we go along. More at the beginning than later, of course, so there is a learning curve, but it's not generally a steep one.

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Good post Vanilla.

There is a LOT to learn in SL and, if we look at it all, we'll see that the end is very high. That's something along the lines of what you said. My point is that we don't reach that height in our very early times. We reach it bit by bit as we go along, and as things crop up.

That's basically my view of it. It differs with those who post that SL has a steep learning curve, meaning that SL is hard at the beginning. It's just my view. It may not be everyone's view. All of us have only one experience of being at the beginning. Some may have found it hard, while others may have found it easy to get to grips with. On average, though, imo SL doesn't have a steep learning curve at the start.

Just an aside: If someone, who hasn't done any programming before coming to SL, later finds that they want to learn to write scripts, then that part will be quite a steep learning curve because it will be crammed into a relatively short space of time. Similary, Blender has a steep learning curve because learning it needs to be done in a relatively short space of time in order to get anything out of it, and it's not known for being untuitive, although I think it's better now than it used to be. I know of one person in SL who had no programming experience before coming here and learning to write scripts (programmes). Programming is now what she does in RL for a living. Her name is Innula, and I have the greatest admiration for her success.

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

...What new user wants to know about replacement feet and shoes to fit replacement feet?


Answer to that specific point: Anyone who would like to wear new (ie. not from their inventory) female-styled* shoes.

Not because they go out looking for replacement feet, but because the female shoe market is overwhelming stocked with shoes requiring replacement feet. So even if you don't want them, you have to be aware that they exist, and have to look for shoes that aren't for those feet. Just buying the first pair of shoes you find (or even getting them as a store gift) is extremely likely to leave you with a pair of shoes that won't fit, and quite possibly, no indication of why they don't fit.

If you want to say that someone who wants new shoes does not fit your definition of a 'new user', then the point is moot.

*some male-styled shoes too, but I'll stick wit the most likely case.

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Yes, it can, and no doubt does, happen in a user's early times, but I doubt that it happens in the first few days - maybe not even in the first few weeks. And when it happens, the user is using SL quite happily and adequately, so I don;t see it as a part of what is meant when people write that 'SL has a steep learning curve'. My understanding of that phrase is that it means in order to use SL properly.

The other point is that nobody needs to know about replacement feet etc. to use SL to the full. Replacement feet and shoes to fit them, etc. merely cause SL to be more enjoyable for a person if that's what they want. That's all. They are not necessary for a full, active, and enjoyable SL experience, so they don't come into "SL has a steep learning curve".

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:


I already addressed your points. Put simply, the examples you gave do not, imo, occur at the start of a new user's SL experience. Yes, they do occur, perhaps quite soon, but what new user wants to know about replacement feet, for instance? When they come across some good looking feet, or someone mentions replacement feet, then they may be interested to learn about them. By that time, they'll have already moved up the gentle slope and be using SL perfectly adequately.


Here's an experiment for you. Many people who start out with female avatars are very interested in dressing their avatars and it's one of the first things they'll experiment with. You don't seem too familiar with female clothing so you could be considered a newbie.

1) Put on one of the new default female avatars.

2) Go here: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Gallii/130/77/33

It's a store that has a wide variety of free clothing items of comparatively high quality. It's the sort of place a new female avatar looking for clothes may end up at - actually it's very nice for what it is and they'd be lucky to be there.

3) Try various items and see what you need to do for the avatar to wear them - particularly the shoes - if the avatar even can.

Report back to us with how simple or complicated the experience was.

 

 

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Agreed.

Funny fact is that Blender and SL developed in two totally different directions. I think this is part of the problem. As Blender evolved into a program that is nowadays easier to understand then it was 10 years ago, SL went the other way. Blender has had an interface that made ppl cry, now it has a more "natural" interface, more Windows-like if you wish. SL on the other hand has had an understandable interface and is more cluttered and complicated today.

Back when SL started the residents wanted their world to be as different for RL as it could be. Remember we all had fantastic pink and purple prim hair...? We created things that were literally out of this world (all we had were basic prims). The possibilities were endless! Today we want SL to be a very realistic world, as much as RL as it can be... and better. We have set our own boundaries now on what is possible, this is not endless and that is kind of sad. We are trapped in our own expectations, limiting ourselves by no longer thinking out of the box. We made our own mess and made SL the complicated patform it has become.

Blender today is able to do the opposite, it now can do the "out of this world" stuff and there seems no limit. 

This is deep stuff :matte-motes-agape:

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