Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Phil Deakins

SL and its Learning Curve

Recommended Posts

I've just read another post that states that SL has a very steep learning curve. That statement is one of hundreds, if not thousands, of identical statements. I didn't find a steep learning curve at all, let alone a very steep one, so I want to ask what it is that people mean when they say that SL has a steep learning curve; i.e. what is steep about it?

I admit that, to get to use SL to its full takes time, but so do most other things such as all sort of programmes, technical equipment, such as PVRs, etc., etc., and the learning curves are gentle slopes - bit by bit - but there's nothing steep about learning to use SL. When I first came in, I learned that the cursor keys cause me to move in various directions, and I soon learned how to TP to places and talk locally. That's all I needed at the start, I could use SL, and there was nothing steep about it. So what is meant by SL's steep learning curve?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have to agree, like you I got that arrow keys move, you talk by doing this and...well was up and away.

Perhaps its more to do with how overwhelming it can be. A very early memory was of ending up somewhere and spending a good hour in a state of panic as I could not for the life of me work out how to get back to - Hanja of all places. That step led to the reallisation of what an LM was.

Later bits involved how to badly ruin land, how to build stuff etc etc. One thing is I have nothing else to compare it to - never been one for the usual 'shooter' type games so not a clue how complex they are and Wow and I lasted about the time it took to uninstall again - this after starting SL too.. Possibly blender comes close in its ability to baffle but there again wouldn't have it any other way.

The only thing that may be a factor is the viewer - I use a few but still stick to whatever feels closest to the one I started on (one of the 1.somethings as they seemed to come out with an obligatory update twice a week).

More than willing to admit that certain parts still elude me. To this day, gestures and me are not on speaking terms. But none of it has been a hindrance over the years. Just as you say, took those steps as the need arose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Second Life's learning curve doesn't have to be steep, it's all about how it is presented and there's certainly room for improvement there. One problem of course is the messy user interface all viewers have but the biggest problem is that the learning process is too rushed, you're expected to learn everything in one go.

Some fundamental principles in education:

  • Start with the essentials and only the essentials.
  • Repeat, repeat and repeat. (one of the most important skills a good educator must have is the ability to repeat without sounding tedious.)
  • Repeating the previous point: when practising new skills you need to do it right four times for every time you get it wrong.
  • Make every new step a logical continuation of the previous one.
  • Give instant gratification (preferably "natural" gratification that is a clear result of the lesson learned; "artificial" gratification - rewards not directly related to the lesson - is a poor substitute and should only be used when there is no other alternative).
  • Give instant feedback.
  • Learning by doing is always far more effective than learning by reading or learning by being told.
  • Learning is always about association with past knowledge and experiences. That's how the human brain works: everything new is "hooked up" to knowledge already there. The more such connection we can find the better and any new info the brain can't find connections for at all is forgotten right away.
  • When teaching, act like a salmon fisher: give plenty of line and always be ready to reel in.

The only beginner's tutorial I am aware of, in SL or at any of the other grids, in the present or the past,  that really tries to follow these principles, is the one at Linda Kellie's Conference Center sim and that is a very sketchy one, more of a concept than a finished product.

Edit: Completely forgot one of the most important points:

  • Avoid distractions!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Phil Deakins wrote:

I've just read another post that states that SL has a very steep learning curve. That statement is one of hundreds, if not thousands, of identical statements. I didn't find a steep learning curve at all, let alone a very steep one, so I want to ask what it is that people mean when they say that SL has a steep learning curve; i.e. what is steep about it?

I admit that, to get to use SL to its full takes time, but so do most other things such as all sort of programmes, technical equipment, such as PVRs, etc., etc., and the learning curves are gentle slopes - bit by bit - but there's nothing steep about learning to use SL. When I first came in, I learned that the cursor keys cause me to move in various directions, and I soon learned how to TP to places and talk locally. That's all I needed at the start, I could use SL, and there was nothing steep about it. So what is meant by SL's
steep learning curve
?

For the moment, let's be shamelessly stereotypical.

Let us assume that one of the first acts of someone starting their Second Life as a female will be buying shoes. She buys a pair of shoes based on the seductive picture and then needs to figure out that:

1) If the shoes are very old, that wearing the only thing in her inventory that actually looks like a shoe will turn her foot into spiky weirdness. The actual shoes are orange cubes which probably will need to be painstakingly slid into a position that will (almost) work by calling up a dialog and then grabbing and pulling on some colored arrows . To hide the spiky weirdness she will need to wear something that is very intuitively called an "alpha" and looks like a T-shirt. This is assuming the shoes are actually OLD and not ANTEDILUVIAN, in which case they'll be covered with a blob that will either hide the spiky weirdness (while chopping holes in various rugs and walls of older buildings) or, if she has a fairly powerful computer, do nothing at all.

2) If the shoes are middle aged, they'll have severed foot in each one. After she spikes her default feet and hides them with a T-shirt she'll need to figure out how to make the severed foot almost match the skin tone of the rest of her body.

3) If the shoes are fairly new she'll discover that they're made for a pair of third-party feet which she doesn't own yet.

All this is assuming that she hasn't given up trying to get the shoes out of a box that will open in any of four different ways (wear and open automatically, wear and touch, rezz and touch, rezz and open by menu) and may be a box that just contains another box.

_________

On the other hand, let's assume this new person is male and one of their first goals is to perform the physical act of love.

He will first need to purchase or otherwise obtain his manhood, as it isn't standard equipment. After unpacking it (*giggle*) he will then need to adjust it so that it is where such a thing is expected to be, rather than floating in front of him or buried inside him. He will often need to attach another separate item that floats as a picture on his screen to allow him to reach the appropriate level of turgidity. If he tries doing this on land that doesn't allow scripts (indicated by an obscure icon in his viewer's address bar) he will find himself impotent.

Now, assuming he's found a willing other who he's managed to convince himself is the gender he desires, he will need to find a trysting place and either:

1) Click on the appropriate piece of furniture and select an interesting option from a menu, which will spawn floating spheres. He will then need to sit on one of these spheres and allow it to animate him by saying "yes" to a dialog which may or may not be shrunken into an envelope with a number on it in the corner of his screen.

OR

2) Sit on the furniture and have his inamorata join him, after which he can bring up the menus. If, in his eagerness, he's sat first he may find himself animated as a female and then need to realize he can change this by hitting the "SWAP" button.

___________

Yep, that learning curve's flat as a pancake, isn't it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Theresa, I think your examples do a great job of answering the question Phil brought up, even down to the first thing someone might want to do in Second Life (though someone should tell that guy he needs to learn to walk before he tries to run!).

Phil, I agree that if all you want to do is walk around and talk to people in whatever places you happen to stumble on, using a default avatar, that it's not hard to learn how to do those things. I just don't think people are satisfied with just those things for very long, though.

Second Life seems to me to be set up for people who are willing and able to use very technical interfaces to do very not-technical things. Calling something an "alpha" makes perfect sense if you're creating textures, but next to no sense if you're just trying to use them. There's no easy way to identify things that are incompatible or incomplete. Doing human things like dancing and kissing and shaking hands and putting on clothes requires a bunch of extra knowledge. I think that sooner or later someone will come up with a virtual reality that has most of Second Life's advantages but is designed to be easy to use, even though it will still have to have a lot more features hidden away for advanced users. Maybe one of the new virtual worlds coming up is like this already. Right now, though, using Second Life is like using the Internet used to be before the World Wide Web (yes, I'm a forty-something): hard to understand, irritating to fail at, and not something most people want to bother with.

^^^\ Kate /^^^

kateamdahl.wordpress.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Phil, just try to explain the Second Life land model to a newbie. Starting with the attempt to explain the newbie what "land" actually is and what you need it for and how you can get land or not and if then maybe rented but this means that it´s not your land while the land you rent from Linden Lab is not yours but....

Good Luck. Remember that land is the major Linden Lab profit source.

And then move on to explain the rest. If you manage to explain it to the newbie within 24 hours and the newbie can remember with what you started you are great.

Additionally, look at what scientists have to say on "attention span":

https://www.nngroup.com/articles/response-times-3-important-limits/

I don´t know exactly how many buttons, pop up menus and splash menus the viewer includes, but all in all it must be a few hundred. All this makes Second Life a task. which most mainstream users refuse to take, for valid reaons.

Don´t get me wrong, i personally don´t mind the complexity, i love it. But I am not mainstream, as most long time SL users are not mainstream.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your examples are fine, Theresa, except for one point - when first arriving in SL, those things are quite a way off. By that time, all sorts of little bits knowledge will have been gathered along the gentle learning curve. So they don't represent the so-called steep learning curve, which, by implication, is at the beginning of one's SL experience. For instance, new sign-ups don't immediately start looking for shoes, or get stuck into the other thing you mentioned.

Just out of interest, the shoes example would confuse the hell out of me too, and I've been here for 10 years, but I get along just fine without that knowledge. I learned the 'other' after being here a short time - after I'd learned to get around, etc. None of it represents a steep learning curve.

The way that the phrase 'steep learning curve' is applied to SL indicates that learning to use SL has a steep learning curve - but it doesn't. It's a gentle, bit by bit slope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Kate Amdahl wrote:

Theresa, I think your examples do a great job of answering the question Phil brought up, even down to the first thing someone might want to do in Second Life (though someone should tell that guy he needs to learn to walk before he tries to run!).

Phil, I agree that if all you want to do is walk around and talk to people in whatever places you happen to stumble on, using a default avatar, that it's not hard to learn how to do those things. I just don't think people are satisfied with just those things for very long, though.

Not for very long, no, although moving, talking and TPing are all that is necessary to explore, go to events, etc. for a long time. And that's not a "steep learning curve". For instance, when I first wanted to go to a place, I asked how to do it, and TPing from the map was explained. That was at the beginning and, with it, I was able to explore to my heart's content. Then when I wanted to do other things, I asked. Over a relatively short space of time, I picked up all that I needed to make the most of SL for me. It wasn't a steep learning curve at all. It was a gentle slope, learning what I needed when I needed it.

Second Life seems to me to be set up for people who are willing and able to use very technical interfaces to do very not-technical things. Calling something an "alpha" makes perfect sense if you're creating textures, but next to no sense if you're just trying to use them.

The other day, here in the forum, someone asked how to make glitch pants. She didn't need to know that all the time she'd been in SL, but it came up for her, so she asked. That's similar to wearing an alpha layer. Alphas layers aren't needed at all in SL, until such times as the person has got used to using SL and buys some clothing that needs it. That's when they learn it - as and when it's needed. Bit by bit. Nothing steep about it.

There's no easy way to identify things that are incompatible or incomplete. Doing human things like dancing and kissing and shaking hands and putting on clothes requires a bunch of extra knowledge. 

Bit by bit, as and when it's needed. Not steep at all. It's only steep if a person wnats to know everything in the first day or two. SL does not have a steep learning curve - imo.


A gentle upward curve becomes very steep if it's squashed into a very short space of time, but, in my experience, it doesn't get squashed into a very short space of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Vivienne Schell wrote:

Phil, just try to explain the Second Life land model to a newbie. Starting with the attempt to explain the newbie what "land" actually is and what you need it for and how you can get land or not and if then maybe rented but this means that it´s not your land while the land you rent from Linden Lab is not yours but....

Good Luck. Remember that land is the major Linden Lab profit source.

That would be easy to do. Nothing difficult to understand there. But a new user will have already learned to get around, and possibly even buy stuff, etc. before they are looking at land. All of it may come in the first week or so but it's not difficult or steep by any stretch of the imagination.

And then move on to explain the rest. If you manage to explain it to the newbie within 24 hours and the newbie can remember with what you started you are great.

Sure. If the person wants to know it all in the first day, of course it's steep. But that's not the reality.

I don´t know exactly how many buttons, pop up menus and splash menus the viewer includes, but all in all it must be a few hundred. All this makes Second Life a task. which most mainstream users refuse to take, for valid reaons.

Yes, cramming loads of information into the brain in a day is certainly steep, but, again, it's not the reality. New users learn to move, talk, TP, and easy stuff like that. Then they learn to explore, go to events, dances, concerts, etc. The perhaps they want a home. It's all easy stuff when done bit by bit. There's nothing steep or hard to grasp about it.


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


sirhc DeSantis wrote:

Have to agree, like you I got that arrow keys move, you talk by doing this and...well was up and away.

Perhaps its more to do with how overwhelming it can be. A very early memory was of ending up somewhere and spending a good hour in a state of panic as I could not for the life of me work out how to get back to - Hanja of all places. That step led to the reallisation of what an LM was.

hehe. That would put some people right off SL. I don't think it's a common experience though.

Later bits involved how to badly ruin land, how to build stuff etc etc.

With ruining land, you're in very good company. I still remember when Qie broke the mainland - he really did break the mainland - just walking over what he'd done caused me to fly high into the sky
:)

One thing is I have nothing else to compare it to - never been one for the usual 'shooter' type games so not a clue how complex they are and Wow and I lasted about the time it took to uninstall again - this after starting SL too.. Possibly blender comes close in its ability to baffle but there again wouldn't have it any other way.

Blender is the most difficult programme to master that I've come across. THAT has a steep learning curve
:)

The only thing that may be a factor is the viewer - I use a few but still stick to whatever feels closest to the one I started on (one of the 1.somethings as they seemed to come out with an obligatory update twice a week).

Yes, viewer menus need to be learned, but not all right at the start. Like everything else, it's done bit by bit, as and when needed.

More than willing to admit that certain parts still elude me.
Me too.
To this day, gestures and me are not on speaking terms.
Likewise.
But none of it has been a hindrance over the years. 
Also likewise.
Just as you say, took those steps as the need arose.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know some of the points here do have validity now that I have thought a bit more. Shoes and - other things - were a challenge when first attempted but I remember it more as fun than anything else. Mostly anyway. An old treasured possession is still a pair of prim boots from the dawn of time.

Not that they are very good its just they were my first success at wearing feet covers that were not all one piece. On the correct feet as well which i took as a bonus.

And of course now replaced for usual day to day stuff. I suppose that yes the individual steps can seem a bit convoluted though.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Phil Deakins wrote:


Kate Amdahl wrote:

Theresa, I think your examples do a great job of answering the question Phil brought up, even down to the first thing someone might want to do in Second Life (though someone should tell that guy he needs to learn to walk before he tries to run!).

Phil, I agree that if all you want to do is walk around and talk to people in whatever places you happen to stumble on, using a default avatar, that it's not hard to learn how to do those things. I just don't think people are satisfied with just those things for very long, though.

Not for very long, no, although moving, talking and TPing are all that is necessary to explore, go to events, etc. for a long time. And that's not a "steep learning curve". For instance, when I first wanted to go to a place, I asked how to do it, and TPing from the map was explained. That was at the beginning and, with it, I was able to explore to my heart's content. Then when I wanted to do other things, I asked. Over a relatively short space of time, I picked up all that I needed to make the most of SL for me. It wasn't a steep learning curve at all. It was a gentle slope, learning what I needed when I needed it.

Second Life seems to me to be set up for people who are willing and able to use very technical interfaces to do very not-technical things. Calling something an "alpha" makes perfect sense if you're creating textures, but next to no sense if you're just trying to use them.

The other day, here in the forum, someone asked how to make glitch pants. She didn't need to know that all the time she'd been in SL, but it came up for her, so she asked.
That's similar to wearing an alpha layer. Alphas layers aren't needed at all in SL, until such times as the person has got used to using SL and buys some clothing that needs it.
That's when they learn it - as and when it's needed. Bit by bit. Nothing steep about it.

There's no easy way to identify things that are incompatible or incomplete. Doing human things like dancing and kissing and shaking hands and putting on clothes requires a bunch of extra knowledge. 

Bit by bit, as and when it's needed. Not steep at all. It's only steep if a person wnats to know everything in the first day or two. SL does not have a steep learning curve - imo.


 

(Highlighted in red)  Newbies get to learn about alphas the first day they're in SL. All of the starter avatars use alphas. Check the Social Islands or places like NCI -- changing appearance is one of the first things new residents do. If they chose one of the mesh starter avatars they'll try to use clothing from other starter avatars and get what looks like two avatars merged together. Some pick up freebie clothing (generally system clothes) but don't know to get rid of the alpha layer(s) used by the starter avatar so their body disappears. Less than two hours in SL and they've fallen into the rabbit hole.

Then someone tells the poor newbie that they'll never be acceptable in SL society unless they have the latest mesh avatar and the fun really begins.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The I.Q. of the average American is 90 (world ranking = 19th). The average I.Q. worldwide is closer to 100. And frankly, this does seem an "American" problem. Those ten points do make a substantial difference, especially when most now coming into SL are late adopters of technology and have more looked more to avoid than embrace technology most of their lives. Given that avoidance, lower-than-average I.Q., and SL certainly being a technological product which is far from plug-and-play, I'm certain many do find the learning curve quite steep.

And even should they get to a certain point, I cannot begin to count the number of times I've discovered those supposedly proficient people have never once opened and customized their viewers' preferences, even after as many as three years, to maximize their SL experience and ease of use. Worst of all, and this may only apply to Firestorm, none see the splash screen announcement offering classes. That's not anyone's fault but their own when the announcement is surely more ignored than not seen. I find the announcement impossible to miss. And given it's people who have consciously avoided learning in almost every single case, I no longer make any attempt to help them. Ninety to ninety-five percent of fault lies entirely with them and not SL.

 

(Note: It's a bit like the person who recently wanted to learn how to build, but then angrily accused no one of helping him learn when every single person in the group discussion told him to take building classes and even provided landmarks to where schools and/or tutorials could be found inworld.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

is steep in the sense that there is a lot of stuff to learn

but like you say, how quickly do we need to learn everything

sometimes new people will say to me stuff like: Oh! man this is so hard. I am never going to get all this

and I just say to them: You doing great. Each time you log then you learn, like understand, a little bit more and how to do stuff becomes more clear. You will get there after a time and dont worry about it. Just come at your pace and is all good

and when they start to stress then I say stuff like: Compared to some people you doing really well

and they go: really ?

and I go: yes really. Lots of people dont even make it off the starting island. SL is a game of perseverance. And that you actually have made it off the island shows that you have what it takes to be good at this game. Even if you are wearing one and a half avatar outfits

and they usually crack up and start laughing about that and go: I know! Dunno how I managed that. Havent yet worked out how to undo that. oh! well

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Phil Deakins wrote:

Just out of interest, the shoes example would confuse the hell out of me too, and I've been here for 10 years, but I get along just fine without that knowledge. I learned the 'other' after being here a short time - after I'd learned to get around, etc. None of it represents a steep learning curve.

Think about what you just said. "Putting on shoes would confuse me."

Putting.

On.

Shoes.

Would.

Confuse.

Me.

Why should putting shoes on be confusing for anyone past the age of six in real life?

I'm certainly not saying this is a shortcoming on your part, and I understand that the way Second Life is built with a lot of end-user input and customization, a comparatively long history and few internal limits causes things like this. I wouldn't want things to be more limited now that I understand the process, but you can't say that Second Life is simple and easy to learn after a statement like that. Even the simplest tasks are often unintuitive and many people who might be interested in hanging out in a place like Second Life would understandably be exasperated by dealing with all of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure there are many such rankings and even different tests by which scores are determined. If I've more time, I'll also find the I.Q. score of 90 stated as the American average, but below you will find data 10 years more recent than your citation which places the U.S. (tied) at 19th. Still, I find SL's learning curve seemingly more a problem for Americans than other nationalities. Remember, they even have to conquer a second language first. Therefore, I stand by my implicit or tacit argument that's it's more the function of a person's willingness to learn than problems so greatly inherent to SL.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/countries-with-the-highest-lowest-average-iq/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That link confirms my link.

As you point out, there is more to learning (and inventiveness) than scores recorded on an IQ test. Motivation is key.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

Just out of interest, the shoes example would confuse the hell out of me too, and I've been here for 10 years, but I get along just fine without that knowledge. I learned the 'other' after being here a short time - after I'd learned to get around, etc. None of it represents a steep learning curve.

Think about what you just said. "Putting on shoes would confuse me."

Putting.

On.

Shoes.

Would.

Confuse.

Me.

Why should putting shoes on be confusing for anyone past the age of six in real life?

I'm certainly not saying this is a shortcoming on
your
part, and I understand that the way Second Life is built with a lot of end-user input and customization, a comparatively long history and few internal limits causes things like this. I wouldn't want things to be more limited now that I understand the process, but you can't say that Second Life is simple and easy to learn after a statement like that. Even the simplest tasks are often unintuitive and many people who might be interested in hanging out in a place like Second Life would understandably be exasperated by dealing with all of it.

Why would anyone past the RL age of 6 not understand the phrase "the shoes thing", when, since it was a reply to you personally, it very obviously applied to what you had written about shoes.

Better luck next time, eh, Theresa? ;)

Oh. I almost didn't notice. Did I just say, "Putting on shoes would confuse me." Did I? You quoted me so you should know LOL. Admit it, you've been drinking, haven't you? :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First look at Pam's list again.  Americans are NOT tied for 19th place but for 9th place.

Secondly many experts don't think that IQ is really a measure of true intelligence. If it were then why do people that live in countries with the least amount of education opportunities lower on the list?  Why do some lists show a particular country higher on one list than another? 

What you are also not taking into account is that America, more than most countries if not any other country, is made up of immigrants from all over the world, including countries from way down the list.  In the last 100 years the number of people that immigrated (legally or not) has exploded.  Not only do we have a huge population of recent immigrants but many Americans are only a one or two generations away from  the "old country" and their families have not intermarried much with other nationalities or have not necessarily gotten to the point where they can live in areas with the finest schools or can afford to go to college. 

Lastly if American's were "less" intelligent as you imply, why do so high of a proportion of the worlds break throughs in innovation, technology and invention come from America? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Phil Deakins wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

Just out of interest, the shoes example would confuse the hell out of me too, and I've been here for 10 years, but I get along just fine without that knowledge. I learned the 'other' after being here a short time - after I'd learned to get around, etc. None of it represents a steep learning curve.

Think about what you just said. "Putting on shoes would confuse me."

Putting.

On.

Shoes.

Would.

Confuse.

Me.

Why should putting shoes on be confusing for anyone past the age of six in real life?

I'm certainly not saying this is a shortcoming on
your
part, and I understand that the way Second Life is built with a lot of end-user input and customization, a comparatively long history and few internal limits causes things like this. I wouldn't want things to be more limited now that I understand the process, but you can't say that Second Life is simple and easy to learn after a statement like that. Even the simplest tasks are often unintuitive and many people who might be interested in hanging out in a place like Second Life would understandably be exasperated by dealing with all of it.

Why would anyone past the RL age of 6 not understand the phrase "the shoes thing", when, since it was a reply to you personally, it
very
obviously applied to what
you
had written about shoes.

Better luck next time, eh, Theresa?
;)

Oh. I almost didn't notice. Did I just say, "Putting on shoes would confuse me." Did I? You quoted me so you should know LOL. Admit it, you've been drinking, haven't you?
:D

Your quote:

"Just out of interest, the shoes example would confuse the hell out of me too, and I've been here for 10 years, but I get along just fine without that knowledge."

I assumed that by "the shoes example" you mean the process of putting on women's shoes in Second Life. If you were actually referring to the process of reading the English language I apologize. (Of course, you wouldn't have said "would" if you just meant "I didn't understand that" but that could just be another symptom.)

I suppose you could get along just fine without that knowledge - after all, I know a number of wonderful Japanese creators who point out that they don't read English well - but it might be a good idea for you to refrain from posting on English-language forums in that case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Pamela Galli wrote:

That link confirms my link.

As you point out, there is more to learning (and inventiveness) than scores recorded on an IQ test. Motivation is key.

Theresa Tennyson looks at ZenWarrior's forum badge and whispers, "Lacrosse scholarship."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

Just out of interest, the shoes example would confuse the hell out of me too, and I've been here for 10 years, but I get along just fine without that knowledge. I learned the 'other' after being here a short time - after I'd learned to get around, etc. None of it represents a steep learning curve.

Think about what you just said. "Putting on shoes would confuse me."

Putting.

On.

Shoes.

Would.

Confuse.

Me.

Why should putting shoes on be confusing for anyone past the age of six in real life?

I'm certainly not saying this is a shortcoming on
your
part, and I understand that the way Second Life is built with a lot of end-user input and customization, a comparatively long history and few internal limits causes things like this. I wouldn't want things to be more limited now that I understand the process, but you can't say that Second Life is simple and easy to learn after a statement like that. Even the simplest tasks are often unintuitive and many people who might be interested in hanging out in a place like Second Life would understandably be exasperated by dealing with all of it.

Why would anyone past the RL age of 6 not understand the phrase "the shoes thing", when, since it was a reply to you personally, it
very
obviously applied to what
you
had written about shoes.

Better luck next time, eh, Theresa?
;)

Oh. I almost didn't notice. Did I just say, "Putting on shoes would confuse me." Did I? You quoted me so you should know LOL. Admit it, you've been drinking, haven't you?
:D

Your quote:

"Just out of interest, the shoes example would confuse the hell out of me too, and I've been here for 10 years, but I get along just fine without that knowledge."

I assumed that by "the shoes example" you mean the process of putting on women's shoes in Second Life. If you were actually referring to the process of
reading the English language
I apologize. (Of course, you wouldn't have said "would" if you just meant "I didn't understand that" but that could just be another symptom.)

I suppose you could get along just fine without that knowledge - after all, I know a number of wonderful Japanese creators who point out that they don't read English well - but it might be a good idea for you to refrain from posting on English-language forums in that case.

Since you haven't admitted to having been drinking when you wrote the post, allow me to educate you....

You wrote:- "Let us assume that one of the first acts of someone starting their Second Life as a female will be buying shoes. She buys a pair of shoes based on the seductive picture and then needs to figure out that:

1) If the shoes are very old, that wearing the only thing in her inventory that actually looks like a shoe will turn her foot into spiky weirdness. The actual shoes are orange cubes which probably will need to be painstakingly slid into a position that will (almost) work by calling up a dialog and then grabbing and pulling on some colored arrows . To hide the spiky weirdness she will need to wear something that is very intuitively called an "alpha" and looks like a T-shirt. This is assuming the shoes are actually OLD and not ANTEDILUVIAN, in which case they'll be covered with a blob that will either hide the spiky weirdness (while chopping holes in various rugs and walls of older buildings) or, if she has a fairly powerful computer, do nothing at all.

2) If the shoes are middle aged, they'll have severed foot in each one. After she spikes her default feet and hides them with a T-shirt she'll need to figure out how to make the severed foot almost match the skin tone of the rest of her body.

3) If the shoes are fairly new she'll discover that they're made for a pair of third-party feet which she doesn't own yet.

All this is assuming that she hasn't given up trying to get the shoes out of a box that will open in any of four different ways (wear and open automatically, wear and touch, rezz and touch, rezz and open by menu) and may be a box that just contains another box."

to which I replied, "Just out of interest, the shoes example would confuse the hell out of me too, and I've been here for 10 years, but I get along just fine without that knowledge. I learned the 'other' after being here a short time - after I'd learned to get around, etc. None of it represents a steep learning curve." You actually quoted that reply. It's obvious, of course, that, as it was a reply to your post about shoes, it refered to the things you wrote about shoes, such as "spikey weirdness", "orange cubes", "slide into position", "alpha that looks like a t-shirt", etc. etc., and not the simple act of putting on a pair of shoes.

You quoted my reply and wrote, "Think about what you just said. "Putting on shoes would confuse me."" You said that I's "just said" it. You even used quotation marks as though you were quoting me, which you weren't. You continued by emphasizing each word in your made-up sentence, as though I'd written them, which I hadn't, and even suggested that anyone over the RL age of 6 wouldn't find the act putting on a pair of shoes confusing - something that's never confused me, of course. In other words, you made the whole thing up, but you posted as though you were quoting me. Ridiculous really. Positively stupid, in fact. Naturally, I pointed out that I didn't say that at all - because I didn't, which is very very clear from the quote in this post.

Now, you haven't admitted to having been under the influence at the time you wrote it, so I have to assume that it was your very best thinking that came up with such a ridiculous and non-factual piece of tripe. If you're still at a loss to understand it all, perhaps someone else will explain it to you, because I don't think I can make it any clearer for you than that.

I hope that helps :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

First look at Pam's list again.  Americans are NOT tied for 19th place but for 9th place.

Secondly many experts don't think that IQ is really a measure of true intelligence. If it were then why do people that live in countries with the least amount of education opportunities lower on the list?  Why do some lists show a particular country higher on one list than another? 

What you are also not taking into account is that America, more than most countries if not any other country, is made up of immigrants from all over the world, including countries from way down the list.  In the last 100 years the number of people that immigrated (legally or not) has exploded.  Not only do we have a huge population of recent immigrants but many Americans are only a one or two generations away from  the "old country" and their families have not intermarried much with other nationalities or have not necessarily gotten to the point where they can live in areas with the finest schools or can afford to go to college. 

Lastly if American's were "less" intelligent as you imply, why do so high of a proportion of the worlds break throughs in innovation, technology and invention come from America? 

Yeah, and we invented rock n roll -- a product of our diversity -- so ... <drops mic>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Phil, did you start this thread in the interest of having a conversation and everyone broadening their understanding, or to have an opportunity to shout down and insult people who disagree with you? I haven't spent much time in these forums in the past, though I've been enthusiastic about Second Life for a decade now, and posts like your most recent one make me rethink participating at all.

I'm interested in your point of view. There are a lot of things you've said that I wouldn't agree with, but it's worth hearing the perspective of "Hey, you can get around and talk pretty easily; people make too much out of all the other stuff." That's not my point of view, but that's exactly why it's interesting. What isn't interesting is rude commentary about Theresa, who has been spirited but not unkind, and who has done a really good job of explaining the other perspective, the one you don't have and might learn from.

If you want to have a real conversation, please don't debate every point that doesn't reflect your precise thinking: just add what you have to add and trust that we're listening. If you just want to try to win the thread with bluster and prejudice, then, ugh, either you can go someplace else or I will. I'm not sticking around for that.

I don't expect this message to do any good, because I don't think you're here to share ideas or learn anything, but I hope you show me up and prove I've underestimated you.

^^^\ Kate /^^^

kateamdahl.wordpress.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×