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Phil Deakins

SL and its Learning Curve

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

 

So I accept that, for some people, SL does have quite a steep initial learning curve, but it is by choice and not out of necessity. I think I'm right in saying that the most suggested reason for steepness is the desire to make the avatar look good, and it's multiple females who have cited it in this thread. In the other thread, a number of females described why they came to SL, and that they pretty much already knew that they wanted to prettify their avatars.

So, to sum this post, it appears that many female avatars have a steep(ish) initial learning curve because they want to prettify their avatars pretty much straight away. It's a choice they make, but it's not something that is necessary in order to use SL to the full.

.


 

Using SL at all is a choice not a necessity.  You are presupposing that some use of SL is "proper" and "full" and that anything more than exceeeds what is proper and full use and is mere unnecessary choice entirely excluding many peoples' entire point and purpose for using SL at all as being "proper" use. It's like saying that if you can access the grocery store you have full and proper use of the entire mall even if the only store you need to access is the book store and thats the whole and only reason you got in your car and drove there.

 

And when it comes down to it the set of "full" and "proper" you've construced is by no means an objective set of the purely necessary.  I mean dancing?  Really?

Somehow controlling your physical in-world appearance and only in-world representation in a visual platform is not part of proper and full use but animating your avatar with a dance is? Talk about arbitrary. 

It's entirely possible to use SL for years without ever dancing once.  So why is that part of  "proper" and "full" use while being able to control what your avatar looks like isn't despite the fact that a primary use of SL among many users is for playing virtual dress up dolls?  Both boil down to what is visible when your avatar is viewed by you or others, but one is "proper" and "full" use essentials and the other is mere unnecessary choice? 

I think by "full" and "proper" you just mean "the things that mattered to me personally when I started, not all that other needless fluff other people mistakeningly think is indispensible to their use of Secondlife".

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

You keep talking about all these things happening together in the
initial phase
, but it doesn't normally happen that quickly. I suspect that you consider the initial phase as lasting longer than it does


These unqualified terms are so useless ('steep' is another - steep compared to what? 'to the full' - whose impression of full?). I've been specific throughout - within the first 24 hours of using the service - being logged in in-world. This is a very useful point in time, it lets you see how commited a user has to be in order to still be here.

I've avoided obvious and predictable traps that very few people ever learn (writing scripts, anything to do with Marketplace, Skill Gaming). Both myself and other users have tried to explain why your perception of the "initial phase" is the one that sticks out as non-normative. You seem to think that the potential for 'steepness' is low, that very few users are caught in this trap. I can tell you, as someone who posts to the Answers forum almost daily, these are not edge-cases. As someone who's watched concurrency and sign-up graphs side-by-side for years, the numbers that give up climbing the curve are not insignificant. As someone who carefully researches every new advertisement that Linden Lab release - what they say SL is for, and what the impression would be to a new user - new user expectations don't come from the ether.

You've provided only anecdotal evidence and gut-feeling based only (according to your words) on your experiences ten years ago.

But you're right, it doesn't seem as though we're going to make progress here. All I can say is you probably didn't miss the opportunity to become a UX specialist. I've tried to compare the first hour in SL with the first hour in Minecraft (and other social apps, such as Tinder or WhatsApp), tried to use literal examples of new users struggling to understand basic principles, and linked-out to demonstrate the cost of poor user retention. I was trying to help you understand, but I've always disagreed with your position in this thread - I've been clear on that throughout.

See you in another thread.

 

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You're beating about the bush unnecessarily, Anaiya. Keep reading to get up to date with what's been written. You'll get there ;)

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You're factually wrong.  You've saying that's not what new users do and announced that you don't accept that new users do this.  But I did that when I was new so provably it's not something that doesn't happen.  It happened at least once already, case closed.  I have no idea why you think pointing to yourself  changes that.  No number of users who do not do this cancels out or disappears a single user who does.  You can't prove no swans are white by holding up a single black swan or any number of black swans but  all it takes to prove "there are no white swans" is factually wrong is a single white swan. 

Question 1 - No because while not all go for a look that indicates that they'd envy my wardrobe or even find my tastes in clothes palatable, they nearly all express a desire to not be so obviously stand out "new".  You get a choice from a library and new users have often indicated they expect older users will recognize they're using library avatars.   I know I thought everyone would know as soon as they saw me. 

 

Also, I've shown people around with a broken avatar when I had a borked alpha layer stuck for a while so...  

 

As far as I can tell lots of many users immediately want to  "set up their avatar" (change it from default appearance and make it their's) because to many people this is the obvious first thing you do before you can fully use the service properly.

I also don't think this is particularly relevant for their priorties because my avatar isn't more than average in terms of being an "attractive" female avatar.  If it makes people feel this way then so will tping around the grid, chatting to a significant chunk of the avatars they encounter around the grid, or dancing next to most avatars I've ever seen in a club.  So they're priorities are going to be the same as soon as they do any of the things you consider "full" and "proper" use.

 

Question 2 - I can only speak for myself.  I asked a couple of male avatars a couple of things a few times but gave up on asking them about clothes because they kind of seemed to know less than I did - one literally couldn't see what was wrong with my shoes (I had one sculpty shoe on and one sculpty shoe off with the foot shaper on the bare foot and none on the foot with the sculpty-shoe) and he said nothing - they were perfect, looked great.  They didn't look great, they really really didn't. 

 

It wouldn't suprise me if a lot oft women would expect someone dressed as a woman would be the better place to get information about dressing as a woman in SL and  I know at least some men think they're better people to ask about dressing a male avatar too. 

 

Which doesn't change the fact that it happened to me and my avatar looked like crap at the time - it was wearing a pink dress with polka dots but not a nice pink.  So I don't think I was acting under the hypnotic sway of my own avatar's attractiveness.  It's just that part of using SL properly and fully for me is dressing my avatar how I want it. 

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This thread turned out to be about whether or not SL has a steep learning curve. It's evolved into one or two people getting involved in small things to demonstrate that it has, and me explaining why I don't accept that such things are forced on new users.

In the course of the thread, I have changed my mind from 'SL does not have a steep learning curve' to 'SL does not have an inherent steep learning curve'. By that, I mean that nobody needs to have a steep learning curve to fully use SL; i.e. it's not forced.

We've beaten about the bush to some extent, sometimes because I haven't always made it exactly clear what I meant when I used some phrases and words, and sometimes because one or two people have taken it upon themselves to prove that SL does have a steep learning curve, seemingly for the sake of it.

Nevertheless, I do think that everyone would agree that SL's steep learning curve is there, and that it isn't forced. Instead it can be unwittingly chosen. After that, I don't see why anyone would want to continue arguing about it.

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Anaiya Ahren wrote:

You're factually wrong.  You've saying that's not what new users do and announced that you don't accept that new users do this.
Factually wrong. I have persistently said that it can happen but that it isn't the norm.
But I did that when I was new so provably it's not something that doesn't happen. 
Fine. I have said otherwise. I sincerely hope you're not going to turn out to be another one makes things up and critises me for them.
It happened at least once already, case closed. 
I never said that it didn't.
I have no idea why you think pointing to yourself  changes that. 
I don't. You just used yourself as an example of it happening, and I used myself as an example of it not happening. Do you think that your example trumps mine? They both happen. We've been through that already.
No number of users who do not do this cancels out or disappears a single user who does. 
You're waffling.
You can't prove no swans are white by holding up a single black swan or any number of black swans but  all it takes to prove "there are no white swans" is factually wrong is a single white swan.

I thought you'd been reading the thread. You're not making any sense for someone who has read the thread.

Question 1 - No because while not all go for a look that indicates that they'd envy my wardrobe or even find my tastes in clothes palatable, they nearly all express a desire to not be so obviously stand out "new".  You get a choice from a library and new users have often indicated they expect older users will recognize they're using library avatars.   I know I thought everyone would know as soon as they saw me. 

You may be right, but I suspect that they are influenced by being alongside you.

Also, I've shown people around with a broken avatar when I had a borked alpha layer stuck for a while so...  

As far as I can tell lots of many users immediately want to  "set up their avatar" (change it from default appearance and make it their's) because to many people this is the obvious first thing you do before you can fully use the service properly.

Did anyone say any different? Don't look at me. I accepted that ages ago in this thread.

I also don't think this is particularly relevant for their priorties because my avatar isn't more than average in terms of being an "attractive" female avatar.  If it makes people feel this way then so will tping around the grid, chatting to a significant chunk of the avatars they encounter around the grid, or dancing next to most avatars I've ever seen in a club.  So they're priorities are going to be the same as soon as they do any of the things you consider "full" and "proper" use.

Of course, but that TPing around the grid, chatting to a significant chunk of the avatars they encounter, dancing next to avatars, etc. is just the new user using SL, which is out of the time range of this thread. This thread is about whether or not SL has a steep learning curve
in order for those you spoke of to even do those things.

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

nobody needs to have a steep learning curve to
fully use
SL

You're still poorly qualifying :P It's these weird defacto statements from your opinion that get my back up. 

But I get it. I'm probably reading something into your tone that doesn't exist - it's always sounded to me that you believe there factually isn't a steep slope for the average user - for 51% of new users who join Second Life. I've been trying to demonstrate that it almost certainly does affect >51% of new users (we just never hear from them), and so, by my definition it's a steep slope by average.

I don't beleive that 51% of users are smart/patient/prescient enough to know how to dodge the fork in the road. Some might make it, and some might pass the tests our service provider sets for them - some might spot that the claims made in SL's advertising aren't accurate. But is this good enough when compared against other online services? - my position is no.

Sorry if I got snappy. It's why I hate such subjective terms, what is a problem to one person will appear fine to another - and the reality is often somewhere in the middle.

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The thread certainly caused me to change my original statement, but I think my final statement is absolutely true. There is a steep learning curve at the start for some, and they don't need to climb it. It isn't an essential for using SL to the full.

Maybe certain things automatically got your back up due to things other than what was written here. We all have experiences in life, some good, some bad, and triggers can cause some previous experiences to be partially activated. For instance, mention bots in a thread, and I'm up in arms to argue my points :) It used to be bots and temp rezzers but LL pretty much put an end to both. They outlawed unregistered bots, and they changed the system so that temp prims don't count against the sim. They pulled my teeth out! Since then, I pateintly wait for threads that I can get stuck into, and they are few and far between lol.

To be perfectly honest, this thread wasn't one of them. I really did not expect it to turn out the way it did and, also to be perfectly honest, it's not an argument that I've particularly enjoyed having. There was only one part where the 'opposition' was so blatantly wrong in parts that it was a pleasure to argue with :) But, on the whole, it was worthwhile for me because I've learned from it. I've learned what some people do at the start - something that I would not have expected to happen. And, as a result, I've changed the opinion that I stated in the OP. All in all, not a bad result at all.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

The thread certainly caused me to change my original statement, but I think my final statement is absolutely true. There is a steep learning curve at the start
for some
, and they don't need to climb it. It isn't an essential for using SL to the full.

Eeeh. Need is one of those words - I don't need caffeine, but if you'd met me before I'd had a cola in the morning you might say differently. :P

Given that SL's ads say things like "Choose your style!" "Find love!" "Create an avatar that looks like you!" I'd say that while new users don't need to climb the Everest of styling, many of them will try and many of those will fail. I'd definitely agree with any push to change these ads to more reasonable, attainable goals for new users, such as:-

"Bumble around for a bit!"

"Come look at some pretty shapes!"

"See if your PC can hack it!"

 :P

I'll agree that there's other issues that can give me a short-fuse at the moment, I've been posting here less while those disrupt things. I probably wouldn't have attempted explaining my perspective if it wasn't you as the OP - I know you can handle it. :P But thanks, and I'll keep being careful.

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I do like your suggested list of attainable goals that should be advertised :D

 

P.S. Ok. It's not an essential. Is that better? ;)

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I do like your suggested list of attainable goals that should be advertised
:D

 

P.S. Ok. It's not an essential. Is that better?
;)

I can feel the steam condensing around my inner ears already. :)

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About the point you made, Phil, about dressing yourself right away when joining Second Life being a choice, I do want to say that the choice for many of us feels like a choice between "Do I want to buy this dress (and those shoes, and this hair, and my God, I even need these feet...) or do I want to be shunned as an ignorant newbie who looks terrible?" I'm sure this doesn't happen to everyone, but this point of view is heaped on women, and I'm not sure it feels like a real choice to most of us. Technically, yes, a choice. In practical terms, it may feel like there's no point in trying to proceed if you're not going to buy the dress and learn how to use it.

As someone who's watched concurrency and sign-up graphs side-by-side for years, the numbers that give up climbing the curve are not insignificant.

This seems like a different, useful angle for talking about the learning curve. I mean, we can't be sure that so many new users are giving up on Second Life because it's a pain in the neck to learn to use it in the ways they signed up to use it, but that sure does seem to be the way to bet. I don't think most people are leaving because it's too expensive, or because it can't deliver the experiences that the advertising suggest, or because of glitches and shortcomings--although I bet some gamers are disappointed in the graphics and so forth, because there's so much lag-inducing, poorly-designed material out there on the grid.

From that point of view, the steep learning curve that many (but not all) of us have experienced has been killing Second Life for thirteen years or however long it's been, and fixing that learning curve might completely change the popularity and power of Second Life.

Except of course Linden Labs isn't going to do this, because they have a new virtual world coming along. Let's hope they've learned this lesson for that world and have found ways to make it easy to be there without giving up all of the creative tools they offer in Second Life.

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Keep reading to get up to date with what's been written. You'll get there
;)

Phil, if you really mean this to be encouraging and not insulting, I'm not sure you're achieving what you intend. If I read that kind of statement directed toward me, I'd take it as a man being patronizing and belittling because he didn't like what I was saying, not as someone who actually knew something I didn't being supportive of a learning process. I'm not sure if this is partly because it's women who are giving you pushback, but unfortunately, it comes off to me as a poorly-considered sexist put-down.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


So new users
could
choose to learn all those things in the first 24 hours, making it a steep learning curve, but they don't have to. They can choose not to learn things so quickly. So I'll add something to my original statement:-

SL does not have
an inherent
steep learning curve.

 

now you just being silly

using "inherent" as if that somehow qualifies your opinion is nonsense

is like saying that ascending Mt Everest is inherently easy or inherently difficult

is a complete misuse of the word inherent

ascending Mt Everest is inherently dangerous. That it is has no bearing on how easy or difficult the ascent will be for each person undertaking the ascent

no matter how much time the person allows themselves to complete this

 

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Kate Amdahl wrote:

Keep reading to get up to date with what's been written. You'll get there
;)

Phil, if you really mean this to be encouraging and not insulting, I'm not sure you're achieving what you intend. If I read that kind of statement directed toward me, I'd take it as a man being patronizing and belittling because he didn't like what I was saying, not as someone who actually knew something I didn't being supportive of a learning process. I'm not sure if this is partly because it's women who are giving you pushback, but unfortunately, it comes off to me as a poorly-considered sexist put-down.

Perhaps that post of mine wasn't particularly good but it wasn't the first post I'd written to her. She she was going through the thread and replying to my posts when she disagreed with something I'd said. That's quite normal but sometimes what's being replied to is out of date, as it was in her first reply. On that occasion, I replied to her, saying that things had changed since I wrote what she'd replied to, and that she should continue reading through the thread to get up to date (paraphrased).

Some time later, her next post was the same as her first one - out of date. She hadn't read far enough. That inspired my post that you quoted. I wasn't the first thing that I'd written to her, and I don't consider it to be rude. I'd write the same again. If it had been the very first thing I'd written to her, then perhaps it could be considered to be slightly on the rude side - but I would disagree.

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wherorangi wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:


So new users
could
choose to learn all those things in the first 24 hours, making it a steep learning curve, but they don't have to. They can choose not to learn things so quickly. So I'll add something to my original statement:-

SL does not have
an inherent
steep learning curve.

 

now you just being silly

using "inherent" as if that somehow qualifies your opinion is nonsense

is like saying that ascending Mt Everest is inherently easy or inherently difficult

is a complete misuse of the word inherent

ascending Mt Everest is inherently dangerous. That it is has no bearing on how easy or difficult the ascent will be for each person undertaking the ascent

no matter how much time the person allows themselves to complete this

Do try not to be so silly, eh?

Incidentally, climbing Mount Everest IS inherently difficult. That's what makes it inherently dangerous.

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Kate Amdahl wrote:

Keep reading to get up to date with what's been written. You'll get there
;)

Phil, if you really mean this to be encouraging and not insulting, I'm not sure you're achieving what you intend. If I read that kind of statement directed toward me, I'd take it as a man being patronizing and belittling because he didn't like what I was saying, not as someone who actually knew something I didn't being supportive of a learning process. I'm not sure if this is partly because it's women who are giving you pushback, but unfortunately, it comes off to me as a poorly-considered sexist put-down.

ROFL

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I'm not going to read the entire thread, that learning curve is too steep.

I think the apparent slope of a learning curve depends on the value of the thing we're learning. If I pick up a hammer and nails, there's not much to learn and the utility is apparent to me. If I pick up a pneumatic nailer, there's more learning to do, but far greater utility for me. I don't see a steep learning curve for either tool.

My neighbor would disagree. She's barely got use for a hammer and has refused the offer of my pneumatic nailer to build birdhouses because "I can't be bothered learning how to use that." Whether that's because the nailer seems complicated or she just likes swinging a hammer (who doesn't?), she saw a steep learning curve.

I think it's much the same for SL. I claim that SL has a steep learning curve, not because I found the learning/value ratio to be high (learning is its own reward for me), but because others do. And I think others do because, thirteen years into the experiment, we have 10,000 new signups per day and a net decline in concurrency. I could argue that SL's learning curve is steeper now than it was at the start, just based on the new user retention ratio. Again, it doesn't matter whether people don't stay because SL is difficult to learn or offers little value. It's the cost/benefit calculus that fails.

Those who remain in SL do so at varying levels of proficiency. Many residents have mastered locomotion, wardrobe and home decor, but have never made anything. Each of us stops advancing when the slope of the curve ahead becomes too high.

In addition to the intrinsic learning/value ratio, there's the relative ratio between SL and competing uses for our time. As you discovered in Minecraft, there are other worlds in which the learning curve is more attractive.

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:


wherorangi wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:


So new users
could
choose to learn all those things in the first 24 hours, making it a steep learning curve, but they don't have to. They can choose not to learn things so quickly. So I'll add something to my original statement:-

SL does not have
an inherent
steep learning curve.

 

now you just being silly

using "inherent" as if that somehow qualifies your opinion is nonsense

is like saying that ascending Mt Everest is inherently easy or inherently difficult

is a complete misuse of the word inherent

ascending Mt Everest is inherently dangerous. That it is has no bearing on how easy or difficult the ascent will be for each person undertaking the ascent

no matter how much time the person allows themselves to complete this

Do try not to be so silly, eh?

Incidentally, climbing Mount Everest IS inherently difficult. That's what makes it inherently dangerous.


is dangerous when the weather is bad. And the weather can close in and go bad quite quickly. Quickly being relative to how fast we can get off the mountain when it does. Is the relativeness of this and that we cant control the weather that makes it inherently dangerous

when the weather is not bad then is just a slog to the top. Slogging a mountain is not difficult for a person who is well prepared and ably supported. Is nothing inherently difficult or easy about it. Is only difficult when we are not prepared or supported

incidentally, I have climbed a few mountains now. Not Everest tho. I would like to have a go at it one day. And hopefully the weather will be good and I can stand on the top. That be pretty cool

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"No doubt that soon after that many may want to dress their avatar better, and many may not. But it's not first thing, imo. Getting around and talking must be the first things, "

 

I don't understand what you're saying here with absolutes like "getting around and talking must be the first things" if you're not excluding the possibility that any people at all have a desire to change their avatars before they have finished being engaged with the novelty of moving around and chatting to people. . 

If that's not what you mean, then I don't know what you mean.  Because it's not like it's so hard to learn to use movement keys, click links and type into chat boxes that a person couldn't join up, log in, figure that out, and be ready to dress their avatar still on their first log in.  So if you don't mean everyone must be too interested in moving about, chatting and navigating and are rejecting the premise that anyone would consider changing their avatars the first priority, and it seems unlikely you mean the learning curve is so steep trying to learn to use movement arrows, click links and type into a chat box would take so long you wouldn't be a new user by the time you were able to do these things well enough to even be able to get to a clothes store, then I don't get what you could possibly mean by "must be the first things".  That's very absolute language and if you're not using it to insist that all people must prefer to do these things first, since you're probably not implying the learning curve is so steep it's impossible to know enough to find a shop until you're past being new, I can't imagine what you meant by it.  I took it to mean the first.

 

I don't see why you feel a need to get snarky because I responded to what you had said  in a reply to me up to the point of you making that reply.  That you changed your mind later isn't my responsibility.  Why wouldn't I reply to the reply to my post right there on the page where I encounter it?

 

I've no idea what this thread is about and at the risk of being accused of making things up and criticizing you for them, I'm not even going to attempt to guess anyore.

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wherorangi wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:


wherorangi wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:


So new users
could
choose to learn all those things in the first 24 hours, making it a steep learning curve, but they don't have to. They can choose not to learn things so quickly. So I'll add something to my original statement:-

SL does not have
an inherent
steep learning curve.

 

now you just being silly

using "inherent" as if that somehow qualifies your opinion is nonsense

is like saying that ascending Mt Everest is inherently easy or inherently difficult

is a complete misuse of the word inherent

ascending Mt Everest is inherently dangerous. That it is has no bearing on how easy or difficult the ascent will be for each person undertaking the ascent

no matter how much time the person allows themselves to complete this

Do try not to be so silly, eh?

Incidentally, climbing Mount Everest IS inherently difficult. That's what makes it inherently dangerous.


is dangerous when the weather is bad. And the weather can close in and go bad quite quickly. Quickly being relative to how fast we can get off the mountain when it does. Is the relativeness of this and that we cant control the weather that makes it inherently dangerous

when the weather is not bad then is just a slog to the top. Slogging a mountain is not difficult for a person who is well prepared and ably supported. Is nothing inherently difficult or easy about it. Is only difficult when we are not prepared or supported

incidentally, I have climbed a few mountains now. Not Everest tho. I would like to have a go at it one day. And hopefully the weather will be good and I can stand on the top. That be pretty cool

Imo, slogging to the top of Everest is difficult because it's such a looooong, arduous, uphill slog over snow and ice. It's not comparable to a loooong walk along a more level surface. Therefore, it is inherently difficult, imo.

It's inherently dangerous for other reasons than the weather. Going off the tried and trusted track(s) can be fatal up there, and is not something that doesn't unintentionally happen. But the weather is also an inherent danger.

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Anaiya Ahren wrote:

I don't see why you feel a need to get snarky because I responded to what you had said  in a reply to me up to the point of you making that reply.  That you changed your mind later isn't my responsibility.  Why wouldn't I reply to the reply to my post right there on the page where I encounter it?

There is nothing wrong with replying to a post part way through a thread, when we see something we disagree with. I do it. I think we all probably do it. When I do it in a longish thread, and I'm replying to an early(ish) post, I start out by saying that 'I haven't read the whole thread yet and this may already have been said, but...'.

I certainly wasn't snarky in my first reply to you. I've just looked at it, and it's a perfectly good reply to you. In it, I actually updated you on my current view of things, because you were out of date and criticising my original view. It was a good post.

My second reply to you, when you did the same thing again, was short and perhaps could be considered as slightly snarky. It followed on from my first post to you, because you'd either ignored it or hadn't even bothered to read it. The length of time between both of those posts of yours indicated to me that you'd had plenty of time to read it. It's possible I was mistaken about that, but that's how it appeared to me. And saying, "You're beating about the bush unnecessarily, Anaiya. Keep reading to get up to date with what's been written. You'll get there", doesn't sound particularly snarky to me. Don't be misled by someone suggesting it was rude. It wasn't. I am reminded of another current thread in which "special snowflakes" were mentioned ;)

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Phil Deakins wrote:


wherorangi wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:


So new users
could
choose to learn all those things in the first 24 hours, making it a steep learning curve, but they don't have to. They can choose not to learn things so quickly. So I'll add something to my original statement:-

SL does not have
an inherent
steep learning curve.

 

now you just being silly

using "inherent" as if that somehow qualifies your opinion is nonsense

is like saying that ascending Mt Everest is inherently easy or inherently difficult

is a complete misuse of the word inherent

ascending Mt Everest is inherently dangerous. That it is has no bearing on how easy or difficult the ascent will be for each person undertaking the ascent

no matter how much time the person allows themselves to complete this

Do try not to be so silly, eh?

Incidentally, climbing Mount Everest IS inherently difficult. That's what makes it inherently dangerous.


It's inherently difficult for me to hit a fast ball thrown by a major league pitcher.  Does that make it inherently dangerous?

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