what can I do ? The land owner abusivelly ejected and banned me,still weeks rent left

[Innula Zenovka]

First, I think you should remove the landowner's name from your post because LL's rules don't allow us to attack people by name in these forums.   

As to your question,  I am afraid there's very little you can do.   LL say, in terms,  in the Knowledge Base article, "While you may have a valid agreement with another person, Linden Lab is not a party to and cannot resolve your dispute.   Please contact the Resident involved and resolve the issue with them."

As with any dispute over money, ultimately your only recourse would be the civil or criminal courts, but you might think the sums involved are too small for that to be worthwhile.

 

[Innula Zenovka]

First, I think you should remove the landowner's name from your post because LL's rules don't allow us to attack people by name in these forums.   

As to your question,  I am afraid there's very little you can do.   LL say, in terms,  in the Knowledge Base article, "While you may have a valid agreement with another person, Linden Lab is not a party to and cannot resolve your dispute.   Please contact the Resident involved and resolve the issue with them."

As with any dispute over money, ultimately your only recourse would be the civil or criminal courts, but you might think the sums involved are too small for that to be worthwhile.

 

[Rolig Loon]

Sorry, but the landowner is god.  It says so, right in the TOS (Sect 4.8) that you agreed to when you joined:

"You may permit or deny other users to access your Virtual Land on terms determined by you. Any agreement you make with other users relating to use or access to your Virtual Land must be consistent with these Terms of Service, and no such agreement can abrogate, nullify, void or modify these Terms of Service."

There's nothing in the TOS that requires a landowner to refund rent if she boots you from the land.  Some landowners will, but it's purely voluntary.  As Innula has pointed out, Linden Lab will stay out of it unless there's a TOS violation.

[Innula Zenovka]

Thanks for removing the name.

I think if you look at the analogy "If you steal money in real life, isn't that a crime ? Won't you go to jail ? But if you do it in SL, nothing happens" a bit more closely, you start to see the problems.

If, in RL, my landlord throws me out and refuses to refund my rent/security deposit I wouldn't -- in the UK, this is -- go to the police.   I would go to the County Court and sue to get my money back.   My landlord would give his side of the story, and the court would apply the appropriate English laws to the dispute.   

Such a mechanism isn't appropriate to SL.   LL can't, as they say, mediate or resolve disputes about money between resdients -- they are just not geared up to it.   

Sometimes, when SL residents have disputes over money, the amounts involved are sufficiently large to make it worthwhile pursuing the matter in the US courts.   Most of the time, though, the amounts involved are so small that this isn't a practial proposition.    "Buyer beware" is the only real solution, I fear -- that, and asking friends for recommendations about landlords.

[LiquidLogicXX]

With all due respect, I don't agree. They should be ''geared up to it'', after all it's their little zoo jungle world here. They make the rules. They rent Sims to the ''owners'' right ?

They could,for example ,hire one or two more guys,and create a 'Customer's protection Office'' or something similar. We even have that in my country,in real life, where all bad treated or abused customers can complain and ,eventually ,ask for an investigation.

 

And if the so called 'Sim owner'',who actually is a renter too from them,is found culpable they could at least send him/her a warning about bad practices,like : '' Hey, is not nice to take people's money and banned them afterwards,it hurts your business,it hurts our business'' . Or punish in restricting some of their rights.

 

But my dears, they won't do that cause they don't want to step on the toes of their biggest money bringers,and also,they don't want complications.

 

So,Mr and Mrs Linden guys,if you're listen, give me and lots of others customers,who actually give you the bread on your table, the LEGAL FRAME to defend ourselves from abusing people and straight thieves

 

Otherwise,in time,all that will be here will be you and a few 'Sim owners' . Thank you.

[Innula Zenovka]

You are talking about a civil dispute between two people in RL -- you and whoever your landlord was -- about however many US$ you are out. LL aren't party to that dispute. Why don't you take it up with your Customer's Protection Office?

[Pixieplumb Flanagan]

It's been this way since SL began in 2002; probably thousands of people have asked questions similar to yours, and throughout that time the answer has remained the same. LL will NEVER intervene in resident to resident disputes unless they contravene the TOS, and this situation doesn't, however much you might think it should. Landowners can eject anyone they like, at any time, and don't expect that to change or affect LL's bottom line.

[LiquidLogicXX]

Innula, first of all, tell me, you are talking as a normal resident,and express that opinion or you are payed by LL ? You sound like a good advocate for the devil.And with a pretty limited view at that, you know those horse eye blinders ? Ring a bell ?

 

I shouldnt be even thinking to go to a 'real life' office,too much of an effort for me,to claim what I should have from the beggining : PROTECTION FROM MONEY SCAMMERS IN THEIR OWN WORLD.

They should regulate this by changing their TOS accordingly to the new times and users requirements. If you dont change, you will became obsolete or perish.

Anyway,no point arguing with indoctrinated people. Have a happy life in your own little world. Thanks and bye.

[LiquidLogicXX]

Pixieplumb, yes I do expect that to change if many of us,who had bad experiences in their jungle,will voice our concerns as one !

If we boycot sl,if we spread the news on the blogs and internet. If we start coming together,and demand a fundamental right,the RIGHT TO OUR PROPERTY .

If that means nothing to LL, then LL is unwanted,maligne and should be avoided at all costs .

[Innula Zenovka]

I'm talking as a normal resident who's been in SL since 2007.

 

I fully understand why you're upset and want your money back, but I also fully understand why LL won't get involved in resident vs resident disputes like this. The business you're talking about has been around a long time in SL, which suggests to me that they're not a fly-by-night scam operation and that there may well be another side to the story. In any case, natural justice would require that LL at least ask your sometime landlord for her side of the story. They don't have the time or resources to do that, for one thing.

 

LL are essentially renting out server-space, in the same way a web-hosting company does. If you pay for an advert on my website -- that is, you sublet some space from me -- and I cheat you by taking your money but not running the ad -- it's me you need to sue, not the web-hosting company whom I pay to host my website. Seems to me it's an exactly comparable situation to this.

[Pixieplumb Flanagan]

LiquidLogicXX, we're not unsympathetic to your situation here; it sucks to feel that you have been treated unfairly or duped. However, as much as you'd like things to be different, this is how SL always has been and always will be. As Innula has explained, the time it would take to try to arbitrate every dispute of this kind makes it utterly impractical for LL to do, unless they implemented huge fees to use SL. If you look through the forums you will see that this issue has been brought up many many times, and it's always the same. All you can do is either accept things as they are or leave. sorry we can't be more optimistic.

[Rolig Loon]

I am somewhat less sympathetic than Pixieplumb. Having been in a managerial role in RL for many years, I learned that it is NEVER wise to accept a story that is only told by one person in a dispute. There are always two sides, so it's not smart to sympathize with either one without hearing both. I'm not doubting your account. Just not accepting it as the whole story.

 

I will also repeat what I said in my earlier remarks. The owner of a region has the full right to make the rules for the region as long as they do not contravene the TOS. In this case, there is absolutely nothing in the TOS that says whether a landowner is required to refund rent, so this is a matter solely between the two of you. You and the landowner both agreed to the TOS. You are both bound by it. Innula and Pixieplumb have laid out the practical reasons why LL cannot be involved. The legal reason is that you were all parties to an agreement that gives the landowner the right to decide what to do.