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Flower Shamrock

PETITION TO ADD AVATAR BAN AND PANIC BUTTON TO MARKETPLACE STORES

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Theft has unfortunatly always been an issue in Second Life, this has taken many forms, from full blown copybotting of goods to account hacking.

For the most part, the Second Life Team have done what they can, but as they say, these are our goods, so really our problem, they should at least give us the tools to help ourselves.

As Marketplace grows, it makes it easier for thieves to find the things they want to steal and harder for Marketplace staff to control.

I am calling for your support to request MARKETPLACE stores are equiped with

For merchants.

1) A 'BAN' option. We should have the right to ban anyone from buying our goods, because of theft or quite frankly, for what ever rason we like.

2) A panic button to alert Market Place staff to serious matters. The panic button would only be able to be activated by the store owner, so could not be abused by anyone else.  It would help marketplace staff recognise a serious problem if for example loads of merchants started to press the panic button at the same time. The current flagging system , whilst helpful, but open to abuse.

If you agree we should have these tools in place, please add your message of support below.

 

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Nope, not needed because you'd have to ban every single avatar. Completely unworkable.

The second suggestion of a panic thing would be far too drama laden, I wouldn't blame LL staff for running for the hills.

 

If these are your concerns, now would be a good time to cease being a merchant maybe?

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why would you need to ban every avatar? Casper has a very workable system of being able to add a name to a ban list which stops them from purchasing.  Not to complicated. Same  with a panic button  but thanks for your interesting take on this.

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Because I'd just create a new avatar and shop, how would you propose to stop me?

 

The panic idea is unworkable because one person's idea of what constitutes a panic is completely different from another's. LL have a ticket system already.

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I would use it just like i do with the casper system. If someone breaks my terms of service  i would add them to the ban system. As for the flag system. Everyone can use that and most seen to use it just to cause problems for others.  linden labs must spend hours going through stupid flags for stupid things. Is is quite simple, a panic button would be for the store owner only and could alert sl  to serious issues quickly.  If it was abused by the store owner, they could have a suspention. I appreciate your views and that you personally do not think it is a good idea. That is fine, have an awesome day.

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You've said how you'd use it, I can understand the sense of feeling that something has been accomplished but please explain how the banning stops someone creating a new avatar and purchasing with that?

Same for the panic idea, what is panic to one is just drama to another, what possible problem could there be that requires "urgent attention" from LL?  They don't work 24/7 so how will that be addressed?

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Can't see the Lab going for the avatar ban from MP thing - its been asked for many times and I imagine the most obvious response would be 'well then sell only in world where you can restrict to your hearts content with land tools already in place'. Not exactly all that helpfull, depends on you having those sort of abilities  (and cuts the feet out of the whole MP idea too in a way) but fundamentally true.

(Not up on how vendor systems work as have not used a commercial one since...a very long time. Don't they require something rezzed out anyway?).

'Panic Button' well yes would have to agree that a better name would be 'Extra Paperwork/Drama Generator'.

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Sassy Romano wrote:

You've said how you'd use it, I can understand the sense of feeling that something has been accomplished but please explain how the banning stops someone creating a new avatar and purchasing with that?

Same for the panic idea, what is panic to one is just drama to another, what possible problem could there be that requires "urgent attention" from LL?  They don't work 24/7 so how will that be addressed?

Banning inworld or on MP does not prevent but presents an obstacle to forcing us to sell to people we do not want to do business with. An obstacle will not prevent the highly motivated -- those who warn everyone not to buy from us as they continue to do so themselves -- but it will stop some.

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Flower Shamrock wrote:

1) A 'BAN' option. We should have the right to ban anyone from buying our goods, because of theft
or quite frankly, for what ever rason we like.

 

 Great, it would be another tool for merchants to ban people who leave reviews they don't like. I review a lot of $0L and Freebie items, not because I'm a jerk, but because I like getting freebies - and the quality of freebies from that merchant reflects the quality they will most likely have in their paid products.

I know plenty of merchants who would like to ban me on reviews I've made on their $0-$5L priced items, especially when those items are not as advertised, or are copyright infringements, or w/e other manner of corrupt marketing many participate in.

How would you be able to tell between a legitimate buyer or not anyway really to discern if a ban is needed or not?

I can't stop copybotters from ripping off my stuff if they really want to - that's the price of having a desireable design I guess - Its a compliment. I can't control or monitor it in any way, so I don't worry about it.

Next, I have more ideas and creativity then they do, so I'm never going to lose in the end anyway.

( Tip: I also incorporate branding directly into the meshes, that would identify them in seconds anyway -:D )


Pamela Galli wrote:

Banning inworld or on MP does not prevent but presents an obstacle to forcing us to sell to people we do not want to do business with. An obstacle will not prevent the highly motivated -- those who warn everyone not to buy from us as they continue to do so themselves -- but it will stop some.

 I wonder how a merchant arrives at a decision of who they want to do business with, or sell to. I wonder what a merchant must fear to concern themselves with such thoughts. There is already methods in place to flag an abusive buyer or review - how will you determine those who are banned or not?

What if two forum users here have differing opinions and 'don't like each other'? Whats to stop a merchant from banning based on personal disputes or misunderstandings?

What if a merchant starts using such ban powers to silence people who give less than stellar reviews? Why would you NOT want me to purchase from your store?

This isn't RL, this is SL, people need to lighten up. Its virtual goods.

If you gotta rip off my stuff, thanks for the compliment. Good luck selling it in Singapore as a game asset, I guess...

I got other stuff to worry about.

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i think that to advance your requests then you should also request that you pay tiers on your MP store, or alternatively a 35% sales commission to LL with a minimum payment of 30L per item

am pretty sure that will get LL's attention

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entity0x wrote:


Flower Shamrock wrote:

1) A 'BAN' option. We should have the right to ban anyone from buying our goods, because of theft
or quite frankly, for what ever rason we like.

 

 Great, it would be another tool for merchants to ban people who leave reviews they don't like. I review a lot of $0L and Freebie items, not because I'm a jerk, but because I like getting freebies - and t
he quality of freebies from that merchant reflects the quality they will most likely have in their paid products
.

I know plenty of merchants who would like to ban me on reviews I've made on their $0-$5L priced items, especially when those items are not as advertised, or are copyright infringements, or w/e other manner of corrupt marketing many participate in.

How would you be able to tell between a legitimate buyer or not anyway really to discern if a ban is needed or not?

I can't stop copybotters from ripping off my stuff if they really want to - that's the price of having a desireable design I guess - Its a compliment. I can't control or monitor it in any way, so I don't worry about it.

Next, I have more ideas and creativity then they do, so I'm never going to lose in the end anyway.

( Tip: I also incorporate branding directly into the meshes, that would identify them in seconds anyway -
:D
)

Pamela Galli wrote:

Banning inworld or on MP does not prevent but presents an obstacle to forcing us to sell to people we do not want to do business with. An obstacle will not prevent the highly motivated -- those who warn everyone not to buy from us as they continue to do so themselves -- but it will stop some.

 I wonder how a merchant arrives at a decision of who they want to do business with, or sell to. I wonder what a merchant must fear to concern themselves with such thoughts. There is already methods in place to flag an abusive buyer or review - how will you determine those who are banned or not?

What if two forum users here have differing opinions and 'don't like each other'? Whats to stop a merchant from banning based on personal disputes or misunderstandings?

What if a merchant starts using such ban powers to silence people who give less than stellar reviews? Why would you NOT want me to purchase from your store?

This isn't RL, this is SL, people need to lighten up. Its virtual goods.

If you gotta rip off my stuff, thanks for the compliment. Good luck selling it in Singapore as a game asset, I guess...

I got other stuff to worry about.

I would ban people from my MP store for mostly the same reasons I would ban them from my inworld store -- usually that they are very unpleasant people and I want nothing to do with them.  I guess you think banning should not be an option inworld either. What business is it of yours why another merchant bans someone?

As far as lightening up because this is Isn't RL, for many of us, SL is RL. What difference does it make that I sell virtual goods? 

 

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onyx Kelberry wrote:

Nice idea . I would like to ban some people as well but what would be the use of a ban button when people can simply gift ?

not only that... creating a alt will only take a minute...

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Gifting wouldn't be a problem, you'd ban the recipient regardless of whether they're the purchaser out not. However, for the reasons already stated, it's largely pointless other than as a feel good factor.

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Flower Shamrock wrote:

I would use it just like i do with the casper system.
If someone breaks my terms of service
 i would add them to the ban system. As for the flag system. Everyone can use that and most seen to use it just to cause problems for others.  linden labs must spend hours going through stupid flags for stupid things. Is is quite simple, a panic button would be for the store owner only and could alert sl  to serious issues quickly.  If it was abused by the store owner, they could have a suspention. I appreciate your views and that you personally do not think it is a good idea. That is fine, have an awesome day.

You do realize that you are breaking LL TOS yourself, right? Each and every single image you are selling is easily found in a simple google search. All of them are owned by someone else. You do not have the rights to sell them. Hell, you have Captain Americas shield and the Flash symbol on there.

Perhaps you should read over the MP rules and regs before further digging yourself a hole.

https://betasearch-marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines#branding-guidelines

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This is why some merchants would like a ban button - to silence those pointing out inferior products, such as 'textured prims" advertised as 'signs' and 'cabinets' and 'shelves', when all they are is a stolen image from Google search.

Captain America Patch

"Mass Effect" Hacker's Patch

Cobra & Fire Embroidered Patch

Bob Marley "One Love" Patch

They don't like it when you leave reviews pointing out this fact - label you unsavoury and ban you - then they can keep up with their abusive activities on the MP that is undermining trust in it.

 A recent store in particular, when I left reviews on some $0L products (which i like to find and review), got quite upset at me telling the truth - would have surely liked to ban me from any further ones. Instead she labeled my honest reviews as 'harassment' and allegedly reported me to LL.

My favourite though, is when a store sells copyrighted images - and adds their own watermark over the preview image - to stop people from 'stealing' the image from the ad instead, lol.

But no. Ban buttons belong in the hands of a few like moderators and such - not in the general populace. Anytime I've seen that done on other 'social' sites, war breaks out, everyone is banned, and the site dies.

The current flagging system is the best compromise - if someone is leaving abusive comments or statements - they can be moderated.

 


Pamela Galli wrote:

I would ban people from my MP store for mostly the same reasons I would ban them from my inworld store -- usually that they are very unpleasant people and I want nothing to do with them.  I guess you think banning should not be an option inworld either. What business is it of yours why another merchant bans someone?

As far as lightening up because this is Isn't RL, for many of us, SL is RL. What difference does it make that I sell virtual goods? 

 

 'Unpleasant' is a subjective and wide definition. I'm sure you find me 'unpleasant', but it wouldn't mean that my statements, opinions and reviews of a product then become invalid.

I believe in bans only for extreme cases of harassment and bullying and serious offenses. You're right, I dont believe in 'ban lines' and 'private lands' in SL - since its not supposed to be like RL with all its hangups. SL should and could be a more social place, and in many places it isnt.. but thats another topic.

Banning tools have their place, but not without discretion. We already have them and can be used by the moderators of the forums and of the marketplace. There are tools in place if a merchant feels someone is being unduly hostile or unfair in their reviews of the product.

Also, if there is any dispute between customer and seller, both should and must take responsiblity for the exchange if it starts to go south.

I've probably been impatient with some merchants in the past myself, and i apologize. I've also had my fair share of abusive and hostile merchants too - and hostile forum members. I wouldn't call for them to be banned. We have ignore, block, ban and in some cases - 'lets ban entity0x from our entire group's lands'  - at the extreme by the weakest..

What business is it of mine that a merchant can ban anyone (and as stated) for any reason? The same business that it is of mine to ensure free speech in the world, and that everyone maintains and has access to human rights. I don't believe in censorship, I believe in communication and facilitation.

In my years on the internet and as a participant on many 'social'(antisocial) sites, chat rooms, forums, game servers, etc  a BAN button given to the general populace never ends well. I dont want merchants banning for any reason. We already have LL dealing with abuses through the flagging system (sorta) and that should be good enough to remain fair for all involved.

However, some don't want fair do they? Some would like to behave as they like without any oversight... I always wonder why those people are always so quick to silence others when possible - perhaps they cant deal in truth, and can only operate in the shadows... In my experience its only the sheisters who want to stop honest reviews or feedback, who want to silence those with countering opinions - who can't stand tall when the light is shone on them.

So Second Life is Real Life for you? Well that's your fault. Just because you decided to put all your financial eggs into one basket, and therefore you are dependent on  your SL success to pay the utility bills in your house - doesn't give you suddenly the right ot dictate how you do business on a site that you do not own, and have the privilege to operate on.

Your job as a creator is to make Second Life better - not to serve your own wishes - although if the two can meet and are agreeable, and do not come at the expense of others while doing it, then that would be fine.

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It's "my own fault" that I earn a living in SL? I would call it more "a dream come true".

I get to decide who is allowed into my inworld store, and I don't owe you or anyone else any justification. The same would be true if there was a way to ban people from buying in my MP store. Buyers get to choose who they will do business with, sellers should have the same right. 

 

 

 

 

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Lets put this a simple way..

If i am banned from Target because i got into a screaming match with the manager they can't bann me from buying things online.

If you bann someone from your inworld store you can not bann them from buying things online, IE on the MP.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Lets put this a simple way..

If i am banned from Target because i got into a screaming match with the manager they can't bann me from buying things online.

Well they could if they could establish identity.  Preventing online purchases (or at least making them very difficult) would be trivial and this is where it falls down in SL too.  You can't establish the identity of an alt, thus both land ban and MP ban are largely pointless.

To ban online purchases (knowing the identity):-

  • Block the account
  • Block any known cards used for payment
  • Only deliver to card holder address (thus no payments accepted)
  • Do not accept orders destined for that address

If they do that, you'd run out of payment methods, would need goods delivered elsewhere, some card companies don't permit that and obviously if Target set "deliver to only cardholder address", you'd probably choose to shop elsewhere.

IF...identity established.

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And I am suggesting that we leave it up to Linden Lab's moderators and judges to decide who gets banned or not. We are not paying for the website, the hosting, the distribution of products, the handling of money exchanges and circulation.

Also, in a free market society, if you want to benefit from such a system, it is a given that you will have to deal with subjectively 'unpleasant' people from time to time.

Seriously, what can someone really do by purchasing your stuff? Even the simplest or critical of reviews can be considered 'hostile' or 'harassment' depending on the mood of the seller - so who will arbitrate in such disputes?

I simply don't understand why a ban for any reason is needed, because no posters in this topic so far have supported their opinions as to why they would like a ban.. they just keep repeating themselves. They also appear to feel entitled to this feature, when they are not the ones running the website, servers and company at all.

I, on the other hand, with a countering opinion, have supported it with reasons. I still haven't read any examples as to when this ban would theoretically be used, and why.


Pamela Galli wrote:

It's "my own fault" that I earn a living in SL? I would call it more "a dream come true".

I get to decide who is allowed into my inworld store, and I don't owe you or anyone else any justification. The same would be true if there was a way to ban people from buying in my MP store. Buyers get to choose who they will do business with, sellers should have the same right.   

Please stop moving the goalposts when we are discussing an issue. We were discussing banning people from our SL Marketplace store - you're the only one that mentioned inworld. I've already addressed that by saying though I do disagree with overuse of ban lines etc because I would like SL to remain more social - I never said you didn't have a right to do with what you wanted on the land you pay for (thats a different topic).

If you do not address any of the points I made as to WHY I disagree with you, its obvious you do not care for countering opinions on the matter. I simply disagree with your desire to ban anyone you want from your SLMP, so I guess that's where our conversation ends - as usual.

I also know I would be the first one on your ban list - for absolutely nothing and only because you don't like my opinions. GG.

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entity0x wrote:

And I am suggesting that we leave it up to Linden Lab's moderators and judges to decide who gets banned or not. We are not paying for the website, the hosting, the distribution of products, the handling of money exchanges and circulation.

 

I agree about the first part, i've already said that elsewhere in the thread.  Both land ban and MP ban are placebo's but since it exists for one (inworld), it's not unreasonable to expect or even ask for the same elsewhere.

We ARE paying for the website, the upkeep, the hosting though.  That's the commission charge.  Quite how it is allocated is irrelevant but it's not a free service.

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I don't need LL "moderators" to decide who I want to do business with or not. That is my business alone and in no way affects anyone else but me. Why you think you have a stake in how I run my business I cannot imagine. 

You seem to think I am talking about a request to ban reviews. I am not. I am saying when I tell someone they should buy elsewhere in the future, I don't want their business, either inworld or on the MP. But I am forced to do business with them on the MP anyway, and I wish I was not. And that is no ones business but my own.

 

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Sassy Romano wrote:

I agree about the first part, i've already said that elsewhere in the thread.  Both land ban and MP ban are placebo's but since it exists for one (inworld), it's not unreasonable to expect or even ask for the same elsewhere.

We ARE paying for the website, the upkeep, the hosting though.  That's the commission charge.  Quite how it is allocated is irrelevant but it's not a free service.

I guess I am failing to communicate to you the need for me to understand how and why a merchant would need to ban people from their SL Marketplace store, and to demonstrate an example that would warrant such a harsh measure.


Pamela Galli wrote:

I don't need LL "moderators" to decide who I want to do business with or not. That is my business alone and in no way affects anyone else but me. Why you think you have a stake in how I run my business I cannot imagine. 

You seem to think I am talking about a request to ban reviews. I am not. I am saying when I tell someone they should buy elsewhere in the future, I don't want their business, either inworld or on the MP. But I am forced to do business with

Asking for the power to ban users of the SL Marketplace for any reason, it does affect me and other users - and if available, could effectively ban reviews by default - and will be abused. You just keep repeating yourself that you want the ban hammer - but you still haven't rationalized your need for it to anyone here, and feel you don't have to, but you do.

I'm sure those who would get banned for unknown reasons by you from your inworld or SLMP would certainly like to know your criteria to do so.

I've never had to ban anyone from my marketplace or the lands I've rented so far. You must have a lot of enemies, though I don't understand why - you are such a kind, patient and helpful person.

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Slow it down entity. You're moving into personal attacks and that is just not on.

Beyond that, you don't really need to know details of other merchants' SLs. Pam has said quite clearly that there are people she would rather not deal with with. She does not need to go into details in an attempt to satisfy you. And at this point, I would guess that that is impossible and you will always find something to argue about. (And if that's not true about you, you might want to reconsider your posting style so you're not creating that impression.)

From what I've seen of you in this and other threads is that you are failing to engage in the other half of communication - listening.

So please slow it down and take your own advice about this "just being virtual goods".

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