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Revoke the use of Security Orbs in Mainland


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JayWaters wrote:

There are some who play HUD based role play games that afk in their homes, perhaps they dont want to be killed in the game while they afk in their homes they pay for...hence the security orb set to 0 seconds because in some of those games if they can come in and attack for one second they will just do it over and over and over beating you til you are dead in the game system when you are afk..so thats why..and hey when I buy a house in my town, since I pay for my house..I am totally allowed to put locks on and not let you in my living room. I can also put up a locking fence around my entire property. Sorry if me not allowing you to run through my yard upsets you, its my yard stay off the grass.

And you can shoot down airplanes flying over your property.

Oh, wait...

No, you can't.

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Didn't bother reading the entire thread, but thought I'd toss in my two cents.

I can see both sides of the issue and unfortunately I have to chalk this up as another problem LL created by not thinking their brilliant plan through.

LL created the mainland and made owning virtual land on a sim the only way to have your own space in SL because they wanted to force the idea of a continuous world, where anyone could set out and explore every nook and cranny everyone else built.

 Which is fine, for people who like to build experiences they want other people to explore, but a lot of people, I'd go so far as to say the majority, just want their own private space. They don't want neighbors, they don't want nasueating eyesores cluttering their view, they're not out to create public experiences for others to explore and they certainly don't want random visitors dropping into pester them when they want to be left alone or with their guests.

 So there you have it. LL sends new players out into the world with the expectation that they can roam the mainland as they please, and LL's customers put out security orbs to put a stop to it.

 

 I'm one of those people with a mainland parcel and a security orb even tho I agree with the OP's expectations that the mainland is there to be explored. The entire way SL is set up and advertised cultivates that expecation.

 

 But dammit, I just want a private space of my own. I had to have mainland because that was the only option LL gave me. Private estates cost substantially more to rent from and you've few guarantees your sim owner won't vanish one day or sell the sim to someone who raises your rent. Buying a sim or homestead is just unfeasibly expensive and not justifiable in the slightest when I all I want I can get with a 64x64m parcel.

 If LL had thought their brilliant plan through a bit more, they would have realized they would have customers looking for that and offered both options. A spot on mainland, with some incentives to go along with the expectation that whatever you built would be reasonably public, and private instances, away from everyone else. Where you could have your own, private experience and invite only those you wanted to share that experience with.

 

 I do try to be considerate, tho. There's no reason for a 1-second security orb. Especially given lag and everything else. I've got mine set to 60 seconds and gives a message warning the person.

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  • 1 month later...

10 seconds is plenty and I appreciate it. Thanks.

As for 'no reason for anyone to really be up there'. Well LL allows us to be up there, so that's a reason. I'm regularly up there. 1000m and 2000m are good heights to fly around at if a person is in an explorative frame of mind. Also, when map-hopping (double clicking the map to get around while exploring) one is often tp'd into the new sim at the height you left the old one at.

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To put it in the simplest terms possible. When you own land in SL, in whatever for be it mainland or renting from someone else, equating it to RL terms it is like different countries. Can the US fly over Russia as we please, no. Can anyone fly over North Korea as they please, no. A security orb is basically a NO FLY ZONE. If damage were enabled and they had a missile platform that blew you out of the sky after a 15 second warning, would that be better?

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

To put it in the simplest terms possible. When you own land in SL, in whatever for be it mainland or renting from someone else, equating it to RL terms it is like different countries. Can the US fly over Russia as we please, no. Can anyone fly over North Korea as they please, no. A security orb is basically a NO FLY ZONE. If damage were enabled and they had a missile platform that blew you out of the sky after a 15 second warning, would that be better?

Your analogy is daft, just like the situation in SL.

Parcels in SL only bear a resemblence to countries by looking exclusively at land owner powers.

The size of parcels and even more importantly the functions most people use them for are the same as buying a piece of land to build a house, or some set of buildings on. Even if you buy a sim or more you are building up a small village or section of a town. In the real world that doesn't give you rights to shoot down anyone flying over your home or walking down your path.

In the real world land owners are only allowed to use reasonable force, and before they are even allowed to use that, they have to mark the boundaries of their land with things like fences or walls.

There is a disconnect from reality, and land owners using their powers beyond what is reasonable are using their powers to be anti-social. The same as if I used my powers to sit in the land next to you and send you a stream of particles when I felt like it, I can and I have the functionality to do so, just as you have the functionality to set up your orbs. Both are allowed, or only forbidden as harassment\griefing. Both are anti-social and Linden Lab should enforce both as such.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

To put it in the simplest terms possible. When you own land in SL, in whatever for be it mainland or renting from someone else, equating it to RL terms
it is like different countries.
Can the US fly over Russia as we please, no. Can anyone fly over North Korea as they please, no. A security orb is basically a NO FLY ZONE. If damage were enabled and they had a missile platform that blew you out of the sky after a 15 second warning, would that be better?

A country is a sovereign entity - its existence isn't legally dependent on anything else. If a landowner in Second Life doesn't pay tier to Linden Lab their land can be taken away, so a Second Life landowner isn't a sovereign entity and therefore their rights are limited.

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Aethelwine wrote:



Your analogy is daft..., they have to mark the boundaries of their land with things like fences or walls.

 

Parcel boundaries come pre marked in the viewer - very easy to not run over them (ok so I do have the odd mishap when trundling around the roads of mainland but then expect to be booted with alacrity).

Barring accidents, or a mistimed curve, badly behaving experimental driving code etc, I do not cross them. Easy =^^=

 

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

To put it in the simplest terms possible. When you own land in SL, in whatever for be it mainland or renting from someone else, equating it to RL terms
it is like different countries.
Can the US fly over Russia as we please, no. Can anyone fly over North Korea as they please, no. A security orb is basically a NO FLY ZONE. If damage were enabled and they had a missile platform that blew you out of the sky after a 15 second warning, would that be better?

A country is a sovereign entity - its existence isn't legally dependent on anything else. If a landowner in Second Life doesn't pay tier to Linden Lab their land can be taken away, so a Second Life landowner isn't a sovereign entity and therefore their rights are limited.

You are taking it far to much RL. It was an analogy, nothing more. And it does work as one. It is well within the rights of a land owner as set down by LL that they can bann people from their land, The LAND OWNER has the absolute authority to say who can and can not enter their land. Their rights are in no way limited.

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Aethelwine wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

... equating it to RL terms it is like different countries. 

Your analogy is daft

... the functions most people use them for are the same as buying a piece of land to build a house, or some set of buildings on...

Well, it's all quite daft, really, and a kind of mass madness to which we've been lured by the whole "Land" analogy.

True that this "world" being simulated consists of 3D hunks of space we might reasonably analogize to "Land", but what it is, in reality, is a kind of personal social webpage that also includes a 3D simulation. Underneath, it's basically the same as a Facebook page or a Wordpress site, with some extra features and really funky navigation.

Of course, a parcel of SL "land" spins off a lot more revenue than does a corresponding 2D "page" of blog / social network, so it definitely pays to hype that "Land" analogy. Unfortunately, though, they made a huge, tragic mistake, early-on, in giving parcel land controls to every landowner for the same cost of tier.

SL would have way more customers, LL would get way more revenue (and this topic wouldn't keep coming up) if basic tier were much lower while features for "protecting" a parcel of "land" with "privacy" controls were metered for super-premium up-charges.

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Aethelwine wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

To put it in the simplest terms possible. When you own land in SL, in whatever for be it mainland or renting from someone else, equating it to RL terms it is like different countries. Can the US fly over Russia as we please, no. Can anyone fly over North Korea as they please, no. A security orb is basically a NO FLY ZONE. If damage were enabled and they had a missile platform that blew you out of the sky after a 15 second warning, would that be better?

Your analogy is daft, just like the situation in SL.

Parcels in SL only bear a resemblence to countries by looking exclusively at land owner powers.


In which case they are just like countries in the real world then..


Aethelwine wrote

The size of parcels and even more importantly the functions most people use them for are the same as buying a piece of land to build a house, or some set of buildings on. Even if you buy a sim or more you are building up a small village or section of a town. In the real world that doesn't give you rights to shoot down anyone flying over your home or walking down your path.

Really? If someone trespasses on your land in RL you have every right to have them arrested. If they are armed you have every right to defend yourself and shoot them. At least in the US.


Aethelwine wrote:


In the real world land owners are only allowed to use reasonable force, and before they are even allowed to use that, they have to mark the boundaries of their land with things like fences or walls.

You mean like parcel lines on the map and or being actually drawn on the ground isn't enough? Now i have to waste prims putting up a fence or walls so i can be left along on MY land?


Aethelwine wrote:


There is a disconnect from reality, and land owners using their powers beyond what is reasonable are using their powers to be anti-social. The same as if I used my powers to sit in the land next to you and send you a stream of particles when I felt like it, I can and I have the functionality to do so, just as you have the functionality to set up your orbs. Both are allowed, or only forbidden as harassment\griefing. Both are anti-social and Linden Lab should enforce both as such.

News flash.. SL isn't reality. Anti-social? Who is to say that I am not having a party on my land and don't want unwanted guests flying over or dropping in?  And no, your analogy is griefing, which is against the ToS set down by LL. A security orb is well within my rights as a land owner. Since when is anti-social behavior against the law?

If i want to sit in my SL home and read notecards with my cats all day and be left completely alone, that is my business. My world, My imagination. Stop tyring to enforce what you want on others.

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This is balderdash.  Your analogy to other web services is false. Even services like Facebook have tools you can use to allow access only to certain people view private content on your page. 

Why should anyone pay extra to keep unwanted people from their land, just so those unwanted people are free to roam where they wrongly feel they are entitled to go and where they do not pay to go?  In RL, you are allowed to have fences and security systems to keep out unwanted people without having to pay extra for it other than the cost of the fence or system.    

There is also no proof that I have ever heard to your assertion that SL would have more customers if people weren't allowed to block access to THEIR land which they pay for without paying extra.  That is the only an unfounded assertion of people that don't like being blocked.  I could just as easily say that SL would have more customers if estate owners were not allowed to restrict a land owner/renter's right to privacy by banning orbs or ban lines.

The reality is that if people respected private property and didn't enter it unless specifically invited to do so,  which is just common courtesy, security measures would be unnecessary.  Unfortunately SL is full of griefers, trolls and people that think it's ok to go where they please and do what they want.

Drake is right.  SL is Your world Your imagination, not Your world every one's imagination.

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This is balderdash.  Your analogy to other web services is false. Even services like Facebook have tools you can use to allow access only to certain people to view private content on your page. 

Why should anyone pay extra to keep unwanted people from their land, just so those unwanted people are free to roam where they wrongly feel they are entitled to go and where they do not pay to go?  In RL, you are allowed to have fences and security systems to keep out unwanted people without having to pay extra for it other than the cost of the fence or system.    

There is also no proof that I have ever heard to your assertion that SL would have more customers if people weren't allowed to block access to THEIR land which they pay for without paying extra.  That is the only an unfounded assertion of people that don't like being blocked.  I could just as easily say that SL would have more customers if estate owners were not allowed to restrict a land owner/renter's right to privacy by banning orbs or ban lines.

The reality is that if people respected private property and didn't enter it unless specifically invited to do so,  which is just common courtesy, security measures would be unnecessary.  Unfortunately SL is full of griefers, trolls and people that think it's ok to go where they please and do what they want.

Drake is right.  SL is your world your imagination, not your world some one else's imagination.

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You have no proof it's balderdash.

But it's also not what I said.

My assertion is that SL would have more customers if tier were lower. Some people would pay more for more "land" controls, making up the revenue difference (and more, I submit).

You're falling directly into the same trap by appealing to RL fences and security systems. Yeah, that's part of a "land" analogy, a part for which some people will pay extra. Others, however, will be perfectly happy paying less to post their 3D content out in the open where folks can see it, as Burn2, the anniversaries, etc.

In fact, Estates were the beginning of just such a distinction. There are "Estate bans" among other tools only available to Estates, not the Mainland. The Lab just didn't take it far enough to make bank on it.

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mikka Luik wrote:


Aethelwine wrote:



Your analogy is daft..., they have to mark the boundaries of their land with things like fences or walls.

 

Parcel boundaries come pre marked in the viewer - very easy to not run over them (ok so I do have the odd mishap when trundling around the roads of mainland but then expect to be booted with alacrity).

Barring accidents, or a mistimed curve, badly behaving experimental driving code etc, I do not cross them. Easy =^^=

 

Many mainland regions are a crazy quilt of private land, commercial land that desperately wants visitors, public land and abandoned land. There is no way to determine which is which by looking at property lines even if they were useful on the water or in the air, which they aren't.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

To put it in the simplest terms possible. When you own land in SL, in whatever for be it mainland or renting from someone else, equating it to RL terms
it is like different countries.
Can the US fly over Russia as we please, no. Can anyone fly over North Korea as they please, no. A security orb is basically a NO FLY ZONE. If damage were enabled and they had a missile platform that blew you out of the sky after a 15 second warning, would that be better?

A country is a sovereign entity - its existence isn't legally dependent on anything else. If a landowner in Second Life doesn't pay tier to Linden Lab their land can be taken away, so a Second Life landowner isn't a sovereign entity and therefore their rights are limited.

You are taking it far to much RL. It was an analogy, nothing more. And it does work as one. It is well within the rights of a land owner as set down by LL that they can bann people from their land, The LAND OWNER has the absolute authority to say who can and can not enter their land. Their rights are in no way limited.

Can a landowner ban a Linden Lab employee?

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Theresa Tennyson wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

To put it in the simplest terms possible. When you own land in SL, in whatever for be it mainland or renting from someone else, equating it to RL terms
it is like different countries.
Can the US fly over Russia as we please, no. Can anyone fly over North Korea as they please, no. A security orb is basically a NO FLY ZONE. If damage were enabled and they had a missile platform that blew you out of the sky after a 15 second warning, would that be better?

A country is a sovereign entity - its existence isn't legally dependent on anything else. If a landowner in Second Life doesn't pay tier to Linden Lab their land can be taken away, so a Second Life landowner isn't a sovereign entity and therefore their rights are limited.

You are taking it far to much RL. It was an analogy, nothing more. And it does work as one. It is well within the rights of a land owner as set down by LL that they can bann people from their land, The LAND OWNER has the absolute authority to say who can and can not enter their land. Their rights are in no way limited.

Can a landowner ban a Linden Lab employee?

Yes, yes you can.. I added one to my security orb a few minutes ago. The orb didn't say "You can't do that." it said "********** Linden added to ban list."

I removed them after since i am not an idiot and could possibly need help on my land at some point.

No where does it say LL employees are exempt from land banns.

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mikka Luik wrote:


Aethelwine wrote:



Your analogy is daft..., they have to mark the boundaries of their land with things like fences or walls.

 

Parcel boundaries come pre marked in the viewer - very easy to not run over them (ok so I do have the odd mishap when trundling around the roads of mainland but then expect to be booted with alacrity).

Barring accidents, or a mistimed curve, badly behaving experimental driving code etc, I do not cross them. Easy =^^=

 

Do they? I have to right click the land, cam around a bit before parcel boundaries show. The way they are displayed on the viewer is far from adequate for navigating around them and only works at all at ground level.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:



Can a landowner ban a Linden Lab employee?

Yes, yes you can.. I added one to my security orb a few minutes ago. The orb didn't say "You can't do that." it said "********** Linden added to ban list."

I removed them after since i am not an idiot and could possibly need help on my land at some point.

No where does it say LL employees are exempt from land banns.

Glendower:

I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

Hotspur:

Why, so can I, or so can any man;

But will they come when you do call for them?

(Henry IV Part 1, Wm. Shakespeare.)

You can add them to the ban list, but are they banned? The script just adds them to the list; you'll probably find you can happily add nonexistent accounts as well. Administrator rights are pretty fierce; the Lindens aren't idiots either. Against them your orb will be about as effective as the sign at my old apartment that said "This building under video surveillance." (There wasn't an actual, well, camera mind you, just the sign.)

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Really? If someone trespasses on your land in RL you have every right to have them arrested. If they are armed you have every right to defend yourself and shoot them. At least in the US.

You mean like parcel lines on the map and or being actually drawn on the ground isn't enough? Now i have to waste prims putting up a fence or walls so i can be left along on MY land?

News flash.. SL isn't reality. Anti-social? Who is to say that I am not having a party on my land and don't want unwanted guests flying over or dropping in?  And no, your analogy is griefing, which is against the ToS set down by LL. A security orb is well within my rights as a land owner. Since when is anti-social behavior against the law?


Yes really. Maybe you live in some strange state, but I looked up Californian Law and like most places there is a duty of care to Trespassers and just because someone is on your land doesn't make them a Trespasser they have to be aware they are on your land first. Normally done by markers like fencing.

You were the one that brought up the real life analogy. That is why I am pointing out that your version does not not fit. Parcels are nothing like countries, they are like pieces of land people buy to put houses on.... because that is what people do with them. Comparing them to countries to make your argument fit is making the argument SL is not like Real life the opposite of what you thought you were arguing.

Both are griefing as described by the Wiki. You with your zero second orb, me shooting you with particles. Rules of living we have in the real life are a balance of rights and duties to make social living pleasant, the same as SL. In real life however a lot more thought is put into them and they are enforced.

The point is, just because we have the tools at our disposal does not mean we can use them with impunity.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

If i want to sit in my SL home and read notecards with my cats all day and be left completely alone, that is my business. My world, My imagination. Stop tyring to enforce what you want on others.

----------------------------------------------

No where have I said you can't sit alone undisturbed with your orb, you just need to use the tools you have responsibly. mark out the land you want to defend with markers like walls.

and finaly...

Stop tyring to enforce what you want on others.

 You are the one defending the zero second orbs ..... lol

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Bobbie Faulds wrote:

Actually, you can't ban a Linden. It didn't say you can't on your orb because it wasn't scripted that way. However, the Lindens that deal with land have God powers meaning they can go where they please when the please. You might be able to temporarily kick them but they'll be right back.

And the ones that dont deal with land wont be able to enter... So the answer is: Yes, you can bann some Lindens.

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Aethelwine wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Really? If someone trespasses on your land in RL you have every right to have them arrested. If they are armed you have every right to defend yourself and shoot them. At least in the US.

You mean like parcel lines on the map and or being actually drawn on the ground isn't enough? Now i have to waste prims putting up a fence or walls so i can be left along on MY land?

News flash.. SL isn't reality. Anti-social? Who is to say that I am not having a party on my land and don't want unwanted guests flying over or dropping in?  And no, your analogy is griefing, which is against the ToS set down by LL. A security orb is well within my rights as a land owner. Since when is anti-social behavior against the law?


Yes really. Maybe you live in some strange state, but I looked up Californian Law and like most places there is a duty of care to Trespassers and just because someone is on your land doesn't make them a Trespasser they have to be aware they are on your land first. Normally done by markers like fencing.

or a line on the ground, like parcel lines. Which you can have show up on the mini-map as well.

You were the one that brought up the real life analogy. That is why I am pointing out that your version does not not fit. Parcels are nothing like countries, they are like pieces of land people buy to put houses on.... because that is what people do with them. Comparing them to countries to make your argument fit is making the argument SL is not like Real life the opposite of what you thought you were arguing.

Both are griefing as described by the Wiki. You with your zero second orb, me shooting you with particles. Rules of living we have in the real life are a balance of rights and duties to make social living pleasant, the same as SL. In real life however a lot more thought is put into them and they are enforced.

Pllease link to where it says that using a security orb to eject unwanted people is griefing.

The point is, just because we have the tools at our disposal does not mean we can use them with impunity.

That is exactly what it means, otherwise LL would have banned them.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

If i want to sit in my SL home and read notecards with my cats all day and be left completely alone, that is my business. My world, My imagination. Stop tyring to enforce what you want on others.

----------------------------------------------

No where have I said you can't sit alone undisturbed with your orb, you just need to use the tools you have responsibly. mark out the land you want to defend with markers like walls.

If people are flying onto my land and past my skybox, THAT DISTURBS ME! My land, MY rules! LL has not said this is against any of their policies.

and finaly...

Stop tyring to enforce what you want on others.

 You are the one defending the zero second orbs ..... lol

Which is my right as a landowner in SL. You do not have the RIGHT to enter my land as you please.

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:



Yes really. Maybe you live in some strange state, but I looked up Californian Law and like most places there is a duty of care to Trespassers and just because someone is on your land doesn't make them a Trespasser they have to be aware they are on your land first. Normally done by markers like fencing.

or a line on the ground, like parcel lines. Which you can have show up on the mini-map as well.


 

Parcel boundaries can't be shown on the mini-map in the viewer provided by Linden Lab. And even if they could be there's no indication that the land is private.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Bobbie Faulds wrote:

Actually, you can't ban a Linden. It didn't say you can't on your orb because it wasn't scripted that way. However, the Lindens that deal with land have God powers meaning they can go where they please when the please. You might be able to temporarily kick them but they'll be right back.

And the ones that dont deal with land wont be able to enter... So the answer is: Yes, you can bann some Lindens.

No, the ones without access to God powers won't be able to enter. There may well be no such animal.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Pllease link to where it says that using a security orb to eject unwanted people is griefing.

The point is, just because we have the tools at our disposal does not mean we can use them with impunity.

That is exactly what it means, otherwise LL would have banned them.


The Knowledge Base article on land security written by Jeremy Linden says that security systems must give adequate warning.

 

Script Use

You can use scripted objects to enhance your land ownership tools. Generally, such scripts should:

  • Provide adequate warning to the undesired Resident.
  • Only work within the property lines (this includes projectiles that cannot operate beyond the parcel boundaries).
  • Not be excessive in the removal of the unwanted Resident. Pushing an avatar off the property or teleporting them home is generally acceptable; intentionally applying a script to disrupt someone's Second Life connection or online status is not allowed.

Scripts or no scripts, you cannot use land ownership as a way to unfairly restrict another Second Life Resident's personal freedoms.

https://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Managing-your-parcel/ta-p/700113#Section_.6.10

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