Revoke the use of Security Orbs in Mainland

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

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Rizzy Khaos wrote:

They pay for the airplanes to do what?

---

 

This is fun but you seem to have trouble understanding how privileges work. I'm not surprised you're confused.

They pay for the airplanes. That's all. Purchasers own a license to list the airplane in their inventory and access it as next-owner. All the money goes to the creator, for access to this license.

Buying airplanes

doesn't give you any power to control land

, buying land

does

. Tier goes to Linden Lab, Linden Lab confer parcel rights to control access.

This is basic. If pilots paid a 'tax' (to Linden Lab) specifically 

to use the airspace

you'd maybe -

maybe

- have the beginnings of an argument, but they don't pay for squat. Therefore no privileges.

You want privileges, you pay for them. From Linden Lab. Like landowners do.

---

The "landowner" (actually renter) of a piece of Mainland property pays for certain privileges that are hardwired into the simulation; they aren't unlimited. For instance, there's a limit on how far the land can be raised and lowered, and the ground patch texture can't be changed. Even though they're paying for the use of this parcel, these are things they can't do.

The hardwired limits for controlling access are to roughly 75 meters above the ground patch to control all avatars, and up to the effective limit for a specific list of 500 accounts. Those are the powers Mainland "ownership" gives you. If you had the "right" to close the entire envelope of the parcel to all other avatars that's how it would have been written into the code. Actually it would have been easier to write it that way. But it wasn't.

And that's how "privileges" work in Second Life.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

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wherorangi wrote:

seeing as how you want to pay then I had a good idea

ask a orb maker to put in a pay option for you

like when you fly over somebodys parcel then the orb launches a jet fighter interceptor. Then the jet fighter zooms up by you and says: right-click on me and pay me the 10L safe passige corridor fee over this land or I will shoot you down. You have 3 seconds to pay or will be doom for you

(:

 

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That's what chaff and flares are for.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

these are things they can't do.

And

that's

how "privileges" work in Second Life.

---

I can't tell who you're talking to, so pardon if I'm confused in my reply.

I understand that any power is not 'unlimited power' and that privilege is not 'universal freedom', and that parcel rights are not 'rights'. That's... why I used the words that I used. I avoided 'renter' as a term because renting as a sub-leasee doesn't implicitly give privileges - landowner is a less confusing term and is used regularly in LL content (though I agree, 'owner' is not wholly accurate). I am careful to avoid games of semantics and still remain clear.

To distill: Landowners get more privileges over land they control than visitors to their land do. That is how privileges work in Second Life. It sounds like you agree with this.

Thanks for amplifying? I think?

[wherorangi]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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wherorangi wrote:

seeing as how you want to pay then I had a good idea

ask a orb maker to put in a pay option for you

like when you fly over somebodys parcel then the orb launches a jet fighter interceptor. Then the jet fighter zooms up by you and says: right-click on me and pay me the 10L safe passige corridor fee over this land or I will shoot you down. You have 3 seconds to pay or will be doom for you

(:

 

---

Genius!

Except to the "all ur stuffs belong to me" crowd.

---

ah!ha. hmm!

ok i had another idea for this crowd

just before it shoots them down, the fighter gives a notecard which says something like:

"seems like you a poor person. I have good news. Here is the LM to the avatar welfare work scheme: (LM to Linden Realms). Do some work mowing lawns for about half hour and can get paid 10L. then come back ok"

(:

 

 

 

[wherorangi]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

That's what chaff and flares are for.

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jejejeje (:

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

these are things they can't do.

And

that's

how "privileges" work in Second Life.

---

I can't tell who you're talking to, so pardon if I'm confused in my reply.

I understand that

any power

is not 'unlimited power' and that

privilege

is not 'universal freedom', and that

parcel rights

are not 'rights'. That's... why I used the words that I used.

To distill:

Landowners get

more privileges

over land they control than

visitors

to their land do.

That is how privileges work in Second Life. It sounds like you agree with this.

Thanks for amplifying? I think?

---

I live on the Mainland. The other day I flew my airplane from my home to an airstrip built and owned by Linden Lab. I then took off again for the return flight. As I was climbing out and turning to return home hit a parcel that had a security system that teleported me home instantly with no warning. This lot is within sight of the airstrip and directly in line with the runway, and the house is newer than the airstrip.

Landowners, of course, have certain privileges that have been mentioned. However, if there wasn't also the expectation that people in Second Life would be allowed to fly airplanes, why would Linden Lab build airstrips on the Mainland?

In real life, your property rights don't extend to the airspace above your land higher than you can reasonably use. Given that gravity is optional in Second Life this makes things trickier and I have no problem with security systems that allow a reasonable travel time since people build skyboxes, but Mainland was specifically intended to be a shared space that could be traveled through - in fact in its early years you couldn't even teleport directly and had to fly around to reach certain places.

[Kelli May]

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wherorangi wrote:

---

Pamela Galli wrote:

---

wherorangi wrote:

seeing as how you want to pay then I had a good idea

ask a orb maker to put in a pay option for you

like when you fly over somebodys parcel then the orb launches a jet fighter interceptor. Then the jet fighter zooms up by you and says: right-click on me and pay me the 10L safe passige corridor fee over this land or I will shoot you down. You have 3 seconds to pay or will be doom for you

(:

 

---

Genius!

Except to the "all ur stuffs belong to me" crowd.

---

ah!ha. hmm!

ok i had another idea for this crowd

just before it shoots them down, the fighter gives a notecard which says something like:

"seems like you a poor person. I have good news. Here is the LM to the avatar welfare work scheme: (LM to Linden Realms). Do some work mowing lawns for about half hour and can get paid 10L. then come back ok"

(:

 

 

 

---

Yay, free bullets!

[Freya Mokusei]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

why would Linden Lab...

---

 Oh I see. Well okay, I can at least see your perspective.

I don't find any of your arguments convincing, sorry. Arguing from previous Lab behaviour or from historical contexts (pre-TP) isn't relevant to me or anyone else.

This is the system we have, today. The Lab enforces the grid in the way that they do, today. If we had the kind of hippy-dippy grid that was imagined in '03 then I'd be fine with that. But we don't.

[Qie Niangao]

Claims to rights of "private property" on SL pixel parcels are as confused as claims of "freedom of speech" on a private website.

It's all a business decision by Linden Lab. At some point, some Linden product manager for "land" decided to define that product to include the ability to llTeleportAgentHome() anybody within the X,Y extent of the "land." Now "land" "owners" imagine it's a god-given right and never could have been otherwise.

It could have been otherwise.

In fact, Second Life may have been more successful if "land" "ownership" had been defined to mean much less. (It almost certainly should never have included llTeleportAgentHome when llEjectFromLand has all the same benefits except pandering to the bloodlust of the most sociopathic landowners. The whole "Teleport Home" thing was more to help gameplay for non-Linden-damage scripts, and really would fit better with Experience permissions had they existed back when the function was defined.)

From a business standpoint, it would quite likely have been better to grant such special powers only to Estates, and charge a premium for those powers compared to Mainlanders.

At this point, though, there's no point in imagining rolling back those powers. The Mainland is doomed to its fate with whatever owners it can attract under the current rules. They're far too few now, of course, but there's no hope of finding more owners who'd want a kinder, gentler Mainland in exchange for lesser powers.

[DonnaDK]

Living on mainland and then setting up security orbs is like someone who craves rural isolation moving into a Brooklyn appartment, then complaining about the amount of people and noise.

As Rizzy has helpfully suggested, if you want inworld isolation, buy an island and leave mainland to those of us who value interaction and interesting things happening!

 

[Alwin Alcott]

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DonnaDK wrote:

 

As Rizzy has helpfully suggested

 

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helpfully in what way?...he was just venting his opinion about this subject... nothing helpfull in it....

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 if you want inworld isolation, buy an island and leave mainland to those of us who value interaction and interesting things happening!

 

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if you want to fly, buy an island and leave mainland to those who pay for it

 

 

 

the circle is round again... and nobody got wiser...

[wherorangi]

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Kelli May wrote:

Yay, free bullets!

---

you a big trubbl. You and that Theresa (:

you both trying to start a arms race. Is pretty nefarious. If this carries on then the whole mainland going to end up be covered with turret guns and missile launchers and all sorts. Will be awful !!!

just be good and encourage ppl to just pay me the  safe passage fees ok. Is not like extortion or nothing like that. I am not force anyone to fly over my fighter bases ok . And is not like all your base are belong us anyways. Even if your aeros do get pwnd over our bases

(:

 

 

[wherorangi]

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DonnaDK wrote:

leave mainland to those of us who value interaction and interesting things happening!

 

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me and Kelli and Theresa are working on a really interesting interaction plan. You can join in on their side if you like. They only got 10L bullets so far. And freebie chaff and flare particles. So they gunna need lots of help

(: 

 

trypos

[Rhonda Huntress]

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DonnaDK wrote:

 if you want inworld isolation, buy an island and leave mainland to those of us who value interaction and interesting things happening!

 

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Mainland is anarchy which is also part of it's appeal.  If you don't want your neighbors that play by their own rules, your private estate is waiting for you.  Why should I pay more for "land" just to make your life more convenient?  Wouldn't it be more sensible to make my own life convenient and let you worry about your life?

 

Anyway, the point is, whether you want to bump people off your parcel or off the mainland completely it is the same "get off my lawn" approach for whatever reason we want to justify.  If preventing people from being on mainland is a problem, preventing them from being on mainland is not the solution.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

why would Linden Lab...

---

 Oh I see. Well okay, I can at least see your perspective.

I don't find any of your arguments convincing, sorry. Arguing from previous Lab behaviour or from historical contexts (pre-TP) isn't relevant to me or anyone else.

This is the system we have, today. The Lab enforces the grid in the way that they do, today. If we had the kind of hippy-dippy grid that was imagined in '03 then I'd be fine with that. But we don't.

---

My main problem with arguments like this thread is people on both sides tend to say they what they want to do is their "right" and the other side's conflicting claims come from "a sense of entitlement." In Second Life, you can do what you can do. As a landowner you have a certain ability to control lot access with the in-world tools. Currently it's possible to go beyond them with scripting. Nowhere is it written that this is a "right". I'm not even saying that landowners shouldn't be able to do this, simply that it's not their "right." The way the code of Second Life was written would make it appear that this was never intended to be a "right." "Entitlement" cuts both ways.

[Alwin Alcott]

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wherorangi wrote:

 They only got 10L bullets so far.

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how about making it 1l$ per added second to pass safely?  so also slower vehicles can bring in some money safely pass

[Darrius Gothly]

(Sorry .. this is actually to Phil Deakins...)

Hey Phil? Time to do an update to your Orb? "Pay or Go Home" option maybe? On first blush it sounds rather odd but .. after thinking on it a bit .. kinda makes sense. Don't it?

[Phil Deakins]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

why would Linden Lab...

---

 Oh I see. Well okay, I can at least see your perspective.

I don't find any of your arguments convincing, sorry. Arguing from previous Lab behaviour or from historical contexts (pre-TP) isn't relevant to me or anyone else.

This is the system we have, today. The Lab enforces the grid in the way that they do, today. If we had the kind of hippy-dippy grid that was imagined in '03 then I'd be fine with that. But we don't.

---

My main problem with arguments like this thread is people on both sides tend to say they what they want to do is their "right" and the other side's conflicting claims come from "a sense of entitlement." In Second Life, you can do what you can do. As a landowner you have a certain ability to control lot access with the in-world tools. Currently it's possible to go beyond them with scripting. Nowhere is it written that this is a "right".

I'm not even saying that landowners shouldn't be able to do this, simply that it's not their "right."

The way the code of Second Life was written would make it appear that this was never

intended

to be a "right." "Entitlement" cuts both ways.

---

I beg to differ. I pay LL tier (rent) for my bit of mainland, knowing that LL has coded the whole thing so that I can do certain things with it. Therefore, it is my right to do those things with it, as long as LL allows me to do them, because I pay for those rights. Included in my paid-for rights is the ability to disallow other users on or above the land I pay for. Other users have no "entitlement" in the matter. If they want entitlement, they can pay for it and become landowners, like all landowners have to do. The only "entitlements" in the matter belong to the landowners.

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

(Sorry .. this is actually to Phil Deakins...)

Hey Phil? Time to do an update to your Orb? "Pay or Go Home" option maybe? On first blush it sounds rather odd but .. after thinking on it a bit .. kinda makes sense. Don't it?

---

It's an interesting idea, isn't it? lol

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Freya Mokusei wrote:

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

why would Linden Lab...

---

 Oh I see. Well okay, I can at least see your perspective.

I don't find any of your arguments convincing, sorry. Arguing from previous Lab behaviour or from historical contexts (pre-TP) isn't relevant to me or anyone else.

This is the system we have, today. The Lab enforces the grid in the way that they do, today. If we had the kind of hippy-dippy grid that was imagined in '03 then I'd be fine with that. But we don't.

---

My main problem with arguments like this thread is people on both sides tend to say they what they want to do is their "right" and the other side's conflicting claims come from "a sense of entitlement." In Second Life, you can do what you can do. As a landowner you have a certain ability to control lot access with the in-world tools. Currently it's possible to go beyond them with scripting. Nowhere is it written that this is a "right".

I'm not even saying that landowners shouldn't be able to do this, simply that it's not their "right."

The way the code of Second Life was written would make it appear that this was never

intended

to be a "right." "Entitlement" cuts both ways.

---

I beg to differ. I pay LL tier (rent) for my bit of mainland, knowing that LL has coded the whole thing so that I can do certain things with it. Therefore, it is my

right

to do those things with it, because I pay for it, as long as LL allows me to do them. Included in my paid-for rights is the ability to disallow other users on or above the land I pay for. Other users have no "entitlement" in the matter. If they want entitlement, they can pay for it and become landowners, like all landowners have to do.

 

 

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My point is that this isn't a "right" - a fundamental shimmering concept of rectitude - but "something that you can do", like anything in Second Life. Your saying that it is... is your "sense of entitlement."

[wherorangi]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Darrius Gothly wrote:

(Sorry .. this is actually to Phil Deakins...)

Hey Phil? Time to do an update to your Orb? "Pay or Go Home" option maybe? On first blush it sounds rather odd but .. after thinking on it a bit .. kinda makes sense. Don't it?

---

It's an interesting idea, isn't it? lol

 

---

is probably worth thinking about Phil

can see that in some parcel/sims situations then a owner might use it. A safe zone for visitors spawning on a sim for example. To go beyond the safe zone then pay some little fee, or any attempt to go beyond then ejected/bumped back to the safe zone. If after some repeated attempts then sent home

+

could even make a option for fairs and such events

like tie it to Avatar Complexity. If over some limit then can pay X amount to enter the rest of the sim. Or change outfit to under the free limit. Or go home

seems a bit odd this, but if think about it then a fashionista probably be happy to pay some little amount to not have to get changed into a outfit their grandma made for them

could even keep a running count of the total AC on the sim only allowing less or more avatars on the sim upto the max. comfortable limit for the fair/event sim  

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]



Section 4.8 of the TOS (which you agreed to when you signed up) says:

You may permit or deny other users to access your Virtual Land on terms determined by you.

This includes all the space above it or LL would be removing security orbs. 

Buying an airplane does not give you any pass to fly where ever you want to.  End of discussion.

 

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

It's a right that I pay for. For example, when you buy a DVD of a film, you have the right to watch it, because you pay for that right. You don't have the right to charge people money to watch it though, even though you own the copy you paid for, because that is not included in the rights that you paid for. When I pay LL the tier for the land, I am paying for the right to do with the land what LL has previously determined I can do with it, and that inlcudes preventing other users from being on or above it. It's a right that I pay for. If you want to take the semantic route and say that that is not really a right but an entitlement, then that's just semantics. It really is a right - and an entitlement

[Phil Deakins]

Don't forget that you can already set a parcel to be pay-for-entry. It's included in the land's facilities - or it used to be. It doesn't have the sort of options that you suggested though.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

 

In real life, your property rights don't extend to the airspace above your land higher than you can reasonably use. Given that gravity is optional in Second Life this makes things trickier and I have no problem with security systems that allow a reasonable travel time since people build skyboxes, but Mainland was specifically intended to be a shared space that could be traveled through - in fact in its early years you couldn't even teleport directly and

had

to fly around to reach certain places.

---

In RL you are right, because of government restrictions that all must adhere to.  No such restrictions exist in SL.  Also it is not practical for people to use all the space above there land as it's impossible to have skyboxes and building platforms and such there.  In SL all the airspace is usable by the land owner.

The early days of SL have past and technology for teleporting changed.  I have never seen anything written by LL supporting your theory of that "Mainland was specifically intended to be a shared space that could be traveled through".  If they thought that everyone would still have to teleport to telehubs and then travel where they wanted to go on foot or by flying.