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Luc Starsider wrote:

I must have bored most people to tears going on like this, but I hope I managed to stay more or less on topic. I'll try to write less and shorter in the future, but I truly believe part of our frustration with whats going is somewhere in these ramblings.

- Luc -

I can't speak for others, but part of my personal frustration come from SL users themselves, which often stick to non-constructive comments, blame Linden Lab for any reason, refuse to give a try to new viewer releases, misuse communication tools (JIRA, forums, user groups meetings), assume that everything coming from Linden Lab will be broken and -worst of all- spread this attitude to other SL users. 

Your previous "almost nobody at LL cares about SL"  statement is an example of that. Following statements by yours show a different attitude.

Still, remember than some people may only see a single reply or comment. This is another reason why exaggerations are bad.

[sorry if my English is not clear. in case, ask and I'll reword]

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You are right. Point taken. I should have worded that differently. It came out more harsh than necessary. At the time I was very frustrated with things, and started typing in stead of waiting. My level of frustration have since worn off a bit, and I've moderated my responses.

BTW. Your english is really good, I understand you perfectly. I'm not english speaking either, and wouldn't know you were not English if you had not mentioned it in other posts.

- Luc -

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Opensource Obscure wrote:

I can't speak for others, but part of my personal frustration come from SL users themselves, which often stick to non-constructive comments, blame Linden Lab for any reason, refuse to give a try to new viewer releases, misuse communication tools (JIRA, forums, user groups meetings), assume that everything coming from Linden Lab will be broken and -worst of all- spread this attitude to other SL users. 

I agree.

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Opensource Obscure wrote:


Luc Starsider wrote:

I must have bored most people to tears going on like this, but I hope I managed to stay more or less on topic. I'll try to write less and shorter in the future, but I truly believe part of our frustration with whats going is somewhere in these ramblings.

- Luc -

I can't speak for others, but part of my personal frustration come from SL users themselves, which often stick to non-constructive comments, blame Linden Lab for any reason, refuse to give a try to new viewer releases, misuse communication tools (JIRA, forums, user groups meetings), assume that everything coming from Linden Lab will be broken and -worst of all- spread this attitude to other SL users. 

Your previous "almost nobody at LL cares about SL"  statement is an example of that. Following statements by yours show a different attitude.

Still, remember than some people may only see a single reply or comment. This is another reason why exaggerations are bad.

[sorry if my English is not clear. in case, ask and I'll reword]

 

Your English is fine.

However, I don't agree that we as users and customers should passively accept whatever LL gives us.

Companies that blame their failures on their customers are on a very bad road.

If I were running LL, I'd regard as one of my biggest issues the alienation of LL from its users.

Certainly it isn't ALL users... but if so many interested, involved, and dedicated users are unhappy and complaining, something ought to be done. Castigating those users will only make it worse.

I don't think that I'm much of a complainer or negative person, but I strongly dislike the idea that we should only throw rose petals to LL and smile and happily accept everything they do. If something doesn't work, or doesn't appear to work, we need to tell them.

As a general rule, programmers and designers don't know what users really need or want, and it not only often happens, but USUALLY happens that development is iterative, that first efforts miss the mark and need reworking, but the only way the provider knows this is by feedback.

V2 is a very visible example of LL not listening. It's very slowly gaining usability, but if its usage numbers are low (and they must be below 50%, or we would have heard otherwise), it is not our fault. We are not obliged to deliver success to LL.

It does seem that Rod Humble is attacking this problem, by doing things like answering posts at SLU and responding to users on Twitter.  I'm amazed that -- with all he has to do -- that he takes the time to do that. And I'm convinced that efforts like his will have a much larger payoff than anything else LL could do now.

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Ossian wrote:

Your English is fine.

However, I don't agree that we as users and customers should passively accept whatever LL gives us.

Companies that blame their failures on their customers are on a very bad road.

If I were running LL, I'd regard as one of my biggest issues the alienation of LL from its users.

Certainly it isn't ALL users... but if so many interested, involved, and dedicated users are unhappy and complaining, something ought to be done.
Castigating those users will only make it worse
.

I don't think that I'm much of a complainer or negative person, but I strongly dislike the idea that we should only throw rose petals to LL and smile and happily accept everything they do. If something doesn't work, or doesn't appear to work, we need to tell them.

As a general rule, programmers and designers don't know what users really need or want
, and it not only often happens, but
USUALLY
happens that development is iterative, that first efforts miss the mark and need reworking, but the only way the provider knows this is by feedback.

V2 is a very visible example of LL not listening. It's very slowly gaining usability, but if its usage numbers are low (and they must be below 50%, or we would have heard otherwise), it is not our fault. We are not obliged to deliver success to LL.

This ^^^

 

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Ossian wrote:

 

Opensource Obscure wrote:


Luc Starsider wrote:

I must have bored most people to tears going on like this, but I hope I managed to stay more or less on topic. I'll try to write less and shorter in the future, but I truly believe part of our frustration with whats going is somewhere in these ramblings.

- Luc -

I can't speak for others, but part of my personal frustration come from SL users themselves, which often stick to non-constructive comments, blame Linden Lab for any reason, refuse to give a try to new viewer releases, misuse communication tools (JIRA, forums, user groups meetings), assume that everything coming from Linden Lab will be broken and -worst of all- spread this attitude to other SL users. 

Your previous "almost nobody at LL cares about SL"  statement is an example of that. Following statements by yours show a different attitude.

Still, remember than some people may only see a single reply or comment. This is another reason why exaggerations are bad.

[sorry if my English is not clear. in case, ask and I'll reword]

 

Your English is fine.

However, I don't agree that we as users and customers should passively accept whatever LL gives us.

Companies that blame their failures on their customers are on a very bad road.

If I were running LL, I'd regard as one of my biggest issues the alienation of LL from its users.

Certainly it isn't ALL users... but if so many interested, involved, and dedicated users are unhappy and complaining, something ought to be done.
Castigating those users will only make it worse
.

I don't think that I'm much of a complainer or negative person, but I strongly dislike the idea that we should only throw rose petals to LL and smile and happily accept everything they do. If something doesn't work, or doesn't appear to work, we need to tell them.

As a general rule, programmers and designers don't know what users really need or want
, and it not only
often
happens, but
USUALLY
happens that development is iterative, that first efforts miss the mark and need reworking, but the only way the provider knows this is by feedback.

V2 is a very visible example of LL not listening. It's very slowly gaining usability, but if its usage numbers are low (and they must be below 50%, or we would have heard otherwise), it is not our fault. We are not obliged to deliver success to LL.

It does seem that Rod Humble is attacking this problem, by doing things like answering posts at SLU and responding to users on Twitter.  I'm amazed that -- with all he has to do -- that he takes the time to do that.
And I'm convinced that efforts like his will have a much larger payoff than anything else LL could do now.

@ Ossian: I agree that we as users have a responsibility to let the developers know when something doesn't seem to be working, and I also don't believe that we have to blindly accept what LL gives us; but I also don't believe we as residents have to complain about every new change that is made just because we are resistant to change. Once again, I wonder where are these numbers coming from? How do we know most residents are unhappy? Second Life was completely new to me not just as a game (I know I know, it's not a game) but also as a computer program. I have had to learn a lot about basic technology just to be able to see the wonder that is SL, so of course learning to navigate the newest viewer was a challenge. It was a challenge. I am still learning it. That doesn't mean the viewer is broken or doesn't work, from what I have read in the Community, it is the fact that the New Viewer is not the Old Viewer that has users upset. So, I agree with Mr. Obscure when he says that people abuse the feedback tools just to complain. In short, complaining is fine, it's good to vent, but to get mad at LL for not catering to each and everyone's personal preferences?

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

@ Ossian: I agree that we as users have a responsibility to let the developers know when something doesn't seem to be working, and I also don't believe that we have to blindly accept what LL gives us; but I also don't believe we as residents have to complain about every new change that is made just because we are resistant to change. Once again, I wonder where are these numbers coming from? How do we know most residents are unhappy? Second Life was completely new to me not just as a game (I know I know, it's not a game) but also as a computer program. I have had to learn a lot about basic technology just to be able to see the wonder that is SL, so of course learning to navigate the newest viewer was a challenge. It was a challenge. I am still learning it. That doesn't mean the viewer is broken or doesn't work, from what I have read in the Community, it is the fact that the New Viewer is not the Old Viewer that has users upset. So, I agree with Mr. Obscure when he says that people abuse the feedback tools just to complain. In short, complaining is fine, it's good to vent, but to get mad at LL for not catering to each and everyone's personal preferences?

 

I've been a developer and programmer for a long time. I've filled every job slot from low-end grunt technician up to business owner and founder. I've seen a lot of really good things done, and I've seen a lot of really horrid things too. My years of experience have given me some good instincts on what will work, what won't .. and how to adjust projects to meet with maximal success and acceptance.

It's not a case of complaining for the mere sake of complaining .. it is an earnest desire to help alert LL to problems coming up, oversights (and undersights too) in the design .. and a unwillingness to just say "not my problem."

During the roll out of the Marketplace, myself and many others on the Commerce Forums posted many long, detailed and well reasoned threads that pointed out places where mistakes were being made. We predicted where future problems would arise, and we spoke loudly for LL to listen and fix the problems BEFORE they turned it loose. They did not listen.

Even just today, those same subjects that we first pointed out nearly a year ago are still hobbling the Marketplace. There are new posts, made today even, still decrying the lack of critical features and missing functionality. The exact same problems! Had they taken time to listen and fix those things first, the Marketplace would be much better off and take much less time to improve today. And yet those same problems still exist.

Complaining is, in and of itself, not very helpful. No disagreement there. But the input I'm talking about wasn't all whinging and kvetching .. a very large (and clearly presented) portion of it not only illustrated problems but gave advice and suggestions for what should be fixed, how it should be fixed, and what might happen if it did not get fixed. And we got it right!

There is history here. A LOT of history. A history of taking the time to describe, contribute, counsel, suggest, recommend, develop and test to great depth .. and then get totally ignored. And I'm not talking about "They didn't do it MY way!!" No, I mean they didn't do it ANY way. They didn't respond, they didn't acknowledge, and they didn't detour one tiny bit from their preset path to failure. Yes, there were some concessions, but not nearly as many as there should have been. Not nearly as many as COULD have been. In the end, they turned out a seriously flawed system that was less functional, less useful and more annoying .. and then tried to sell it to us and everyone else as "New, Improved and The Best Around." And we knew it was BS.

A lot of the people that get pegged as "constant complainers" are those with enough history to have been through one, two or more of these same or similar fiascos. They have reached a point where most would simply offer up a derogatory hand-gesture and move on down the road. Instead, we stay and keep contributing, suggesting, counseling and ... yes, complaining. Because we believe.

Earlier today I posted on another thread asking someone to give more detail as to why the new Basic Viewer was a "total failure". They took the time to reply in detail with even tempered, well formatted and clear answers. It didn't take an act of God to get them to do that either .. it just took me ASKING .. and LISTENING! Prior to my simple act of being involved and interested, the communication was angry and non-productive. But afterwards? Very positive and (I truly hope) useful information that can benefit the Viewer Dev team tremendously.

And I'm just a Resi. I don't get to wear a last name of Linden. And while I like to think Linden Lab does listen to me, I am also honest enough to know they have no requirement to do so either. But they DO need to (re-)develop the skill of listening and acknowledging in general. They DO need to regain the community's trust. And they DO need to make sure they incorporate the priceless advice and feedback they are given in some visible fashion.

If I can so easily turn a negative into a positive, I KNOW that Linden Lab can do it better, faster and with better results too. Because I believe too.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

 A lot of the people that get pegged as "constant complainers" are those with enough history to have been through one, two or more of these same or similar fiascos. They have reached a point where most would simply offer up a derogatory hand-gesture and move on down the road. Instead, we stay and keep contributing, suggesting, counseling and ... yes, complaining. Because we believe.

Off the top of my head: Windlight, voice, Zindra, in-world search, marketplace, Jive, web-profiles, Answers here, Basic Viewer.

Viewer 2 should probably be in there too but it's the exception that proves the rule.  LL have listened to feedback about it and have changed the more awful things.  Most noticably the first update stopped the sidebar shifting the world-view every time it was opened/closed.  Yes, it's different, no it isn't any harder (although I'm not convinced it's any easier either) - and I speak as someone who uses it all the time for scripting and building.

Most importantly, as I was writing that list, "customer-communications and service" should have been first, last and in-between everything else.  There was A LOT of communication before the Zindra debacle, for instance, but it was all of the form "yes, we're listening, but you're not saying the things we've already decided so we aren't going to do change a thing.  We aren't doing this for residents, we're doing this for 'the millions of potential residents' [twit-face crowd]".  Result; actual customers annoyed, potential customers not realised.  There has hardly been any official communication about the other issues, sometimes we're even lucky if we get an announcement.  Twit-face, yes, customers, no.

So - again - hoorah for the moderators here :-) Visible response to customer issues.  While I'm at it - let's all say one for Torley, too, one of the few Lindens to ever seem to understand SL.  Kelly needs a third, at least from programmers.  He actually contributes to discussions as well as responding.

So three cheers :-)  It's not all bad

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

 

I've been a developer and programmer for a long time. I've filled every job slot from low-end grunt technician up to business owner and founder. I've seen a lot of really good things done, and I've seen a lot of really horrid things too. My years of experience have given me some good instincts on what will work, what won't .. and how to adjust projects to meet with maximal success and acceptance.

It's not a case of complaining for the mere sake of complaining .. it is an earnest desire to help alert LL to problems coming up, oversights (and undersights too) in the design .. and a unwillingness to just say "not my problem."

During the roll out of the Marketplace, myself and many others on the Commerce Forums posted many long, detailed and well reasoned threads that pointed out places where mistakes were being made. We predicted where future problems would arise, and we spoke loudly for LL to listen and fix the problems BEFORE they turned it loose. They did not listen.

Even just today, those same subjects that we first pointed out nearly a year ago are still hobbling the Marketplace. There are new posts, made today even, still decrying the lack of critical features and missing functionality. The exact same problems! Had they taken time to listen and fix those things first, the Marketplace would be much better off and take much less time to improve today. And yet those same problems still exist.

Complaining is, in and of itself, not very helpful. No disagreement there. But the input I'm talking about wasn't all whinging and kvetching .. a very large (and clearly presented) portion of it not only illustrated problems but gave advice and suggestions for what should be fixed, how it should be fixed, and what might happen if it did not get fixed. And we got it right!

There is history here. A LOT of history. A history of taking the time to describe, contribute, counsel, suggest, recommend, develop and test to great depth .. and then get totally ignored. And I'm not talking about "They didn't do it MY way!!" No, I mean they didn't do it ANY way. They didn't respond, they didn't acknowledge, and they didn't detour one tiny bit from their preset path to failure. Yes, there were some concessions, but not nearly as many as there should have been. Not nearly as many as COULD have been. In the end, they turned out a seriously flawed system that was less functional, less useful and more annoying .. and then tried to sell it to us and everyone else as "New, Improved and The Best Around." And we knew it was BS.

A lot of the people that get pegged as "constant complainers" are those with enough history to have been through one, two or more of these same or similar fiascos. They have reached a point where most would simply offer up a derogatory hand-gesture and move on down the road. Instead, we stay and keep contributing, suggesting, counseling and ... yes, complaining. Because we believe.

Earlier today I posted on another thread asking someone to give more detail as to why the new Basic Viewer was a "total failure". They took the time to reply in detail with even tempered, well formatted and clear answers. It didn't take an act of God to get them to do that either .. it just took me ASKING .. and LISTENING! Prior to my simple act of being involved and interested, the communication was angry and non-productive. But afterwards? Very positive and (I truly hope) useful information that can benefit the Viewer Dev team tremendously.

And I'm just a Resi. I don't get to wear a last name of Linden. And while I like to think Linden Lab does listen to me, I am also honest enough to know they have no requirement to do so either. But they DO need to (re-)develop the skill of listening and acknowledging in general. They DO need to regain the community's trust. And they DO need to make sure they incorporate the priceless advice and feedback they are given in some visible fashion.

If I can so easily turn a negative into a positive, I KNOW that Linden Lab can do it better, faster and with better results too. Because I believe too.

@ Darrius: It is refreshing to learn about some of the history of SL users such as yourself. You bring up many valid points and I respect you for your views as a programmer and developer. What began to bother me was all the whining. When ever I came to the forums looking for answers, I would keep seeing posts after posts of senseless crying about all the bad things LL was doing. Many times I had wanted to lash out and tell all of them to go make their own virtual world if they are such experts, but instead I realized that would be silly. So thank you for taking the time to show me the other side of the issue.

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

@ Darrius: It is refreshing to learn about some of the history of SL users such as yourself. You bring up many valid points and I respect you for your views as a programmer and developer. What began to bother me was all the whining. When ever I came to the forums looking for answers, I would keep seeing posts after posts of senseless crying about all the bad things LL was doing. Many times I had wanted to lash out and tell all of them to go make their own virtual world if they are such experts, but instead I realized that would be silly. So thank you for taking the time to show me the other side of the issue.

You are very welcome Charolotte. Thank you for having the decency and open mind to consider the 'other side'. That right there is the sign of a positive personality .. the willingness and capacity to accept the FULL story .. and then push for a better outcome anyway. IMO, it's that knack and that habit, which I actually do encounter quite often among people in SL, that will be the best advantage in the success of SL. *Smiles*

 

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