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  1. The moderators get rid of spam really quickly - well done them
  2. 'Mainland' and 'Arts/Photogrpahy' forums were created even quicker than anyone expected (forum mods again, I assume)
  3. Lithium generally 'works', unlike previous Jive
  4. 'Kudos' and 'Ranks' are more or less universally detested
  5. 'Answers' is the hardest UI it would be possible to invent
  6.  Linden's avoid the blogs like the plague - communications NotR us

So, there we go.  LL management have dictated this should be **bleep**e but the moderators are doing the best job within their powers.

While several people have said they "don't mind" kudos/rank many have said they abhor them.  Almost all the comments on 'Answers' have decried the 'newest first' and then, especially, the 'most kudos' sort orders.  No acknowledgement, no comment, no plan from LL.  We think we understand what you're (not) saying to us = customers f* off.

Hope over experience I keep thinking they might actually have a bit of a chat, or dictat, or something, but they really, really, don't give a toss unless it's on **bleep**-face, do they?

Anything I've missed?

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:

  1. The moderators get rid of spam really quickly - well done them
  2. 'Mainland' and 'Arts/Photogrpahy' forums were created even quicker than anyone expected (forum mods again, I assume)
  3. Lithium generally 'works', unlike previous Jive
  4. 'Kudos' and 'Ranks' are more or less universally detested
  5. 'Answers' is the hardest UI it would be possible to invent
  6.  Linden's avoid the blogs like the plague - communications NotR us

So, there we go.  LL management have dictated this should be **bleep**e but the moderators are doing the best job within their powers.

While several people have said they "don't mind" kudos/rank many have said they abhor them.  Almost all the comments on 'Answers' have decried the 'newest first' and then, especially, the 'most kudos' sort orders.  No acknowledgement, no comment, no plan from LL.  We think we understand what you're (not) saying to us = customers f* off.

Hope over experience I keep thinking they might actually have a bit of a chat, or dictat, or something, but they really, really, don't give a toss unless it's on **bleep**-face, do they?

Anything I've missed?

I think you are a bit unfair on LL. Given that practically none of the Lindens - with a few exceptions, Torley being the most obvious one (GO TORLEY!) - have any interest in SL as a (social) community (they are perhaps interested in the techical aspect of SL), I think the attention from the Lab is above and beyond what we can expect. I mean, when was the last time you saw a Linden in world, communicating and talking to the regular folk? I've seen a couple of Lindens since I joined. (One was away, and the other was flying around about 100 meters up in the air for a few seconds before dissapearing.) And yet, they do things; they make decisions for us and 'fix' things without us asking them to, and welcome feedback from us. I think they are doing the best job we can expect from them.

- Luc -

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Oh, and also, Mr. Oh, you can sort the Answer threads by Newest First, Oldest First, Most Kudos, or even Least Kudos!
:D

Once again you are absolutely correct.  Should one want to follow the logic of a thread then - for each individual thread - one can open it, wait for load, click newest first, wait for re-load, click oldest-first, wait for re-load and then actually read it.  I am far from being alone in thinking that is sub-optimal.

@Luc - unfair to LL?  I applaud their interest in the technology of SL and would love them to tell us a little about it some time (over a fortnight since the last communication from LL here on any subject).  The last time I saw a Linden in-world was around 2 years ago, I think.  That's partly because I don't go to office-hours, so can't blame them for that.  Oddly enough many technology-based companies also work hard on customer-relations and communications, LL does not appear to do that.  I will, however, accept that they do frequently communicate using twit-face, but none of the in-world or specifically SL tools (such as these fora & blogs).

My point is that the strategic decisions about Answers in particular are not popular but, genuinely, I was voting a 'hoorah' for the moderators

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PeterCanessa Oh wrote:


@Luc - unfair to LL?  I applaud their interest in the technology of SL and would love them to tell us a little about it some time (over a fortnight since the last communication from LL here on any subject).  The last time I saw a Linden in-world was around 2 years ago, I think.  That's partly because I don't go to office-hours, so can't blame them for that.  Oddly enough many technology-based companies
also
work hard on customer-relations and communications, LL does not appear to do that.  I will, however, accept that they do frequently communicate using twit-face, but none of the in-world or specifically SL tools (such as these fora & blogs).

My point is that the strategic decisions about Answers in particular are not popular but, genuinely, I was voting a 'hoorah' for the moderators

Ooops! I had kind of hoped it came across that I was being a bit sarcastic with my reply.

What I meant to say, in plain word, is that while the technology might be interesting enough, that's just a part of the story. I don't think hardly any of the lindens, with the exception of a couple, are interested enough in SL to actally give a damn. Following up what's happening with this forum/blog platform, or caring enough about whats going on among the SL residents, seems to be to much work, so I guess we have to be content with the odd blog post telling us what new feature we're getting that we never asked for. And the improved communication initiative we were promised. Aside from renaming the office hours to user groups, I haven't noticed any difference. But then again, I don't use twitter. Actually, using twitter makes sense. Less time wasted typing. If they are doing a blog post, they have to write more than 140 characters, right? That's a lot of work, you know :D

You also must be right about the moderators. I haven't noticed them, so they must be doing a good job.

As for the Lithium platform. I haven't really thought much about it. Not sure I like it any more than the previous one, but it works. Don't have anything against it, though, so it's all right.

- Luc -

 

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Luc Starsider wrote:

 

You also must be right about the moderators. I haven't noticed them, so they must be doing a good job.

As for the Lithium platform. I haven't really thought much about it. Not sure I like it any more than the previous one, but it works. Don't have anything against it, though, so it's all right.

- Luc -

 

I have noticed the moderators, and in mostly a positive way. There have been posts from moderators (a first for me--I certainly never saw that happen on the previous platform). We've had threads started in one topic moved to another. In more than one instance an Off Topic thread was moved to one of the 'public' topics. I also like that when someone gets a moderator's wrist slap, the someone is notified as to the reason for the slap. There was one instance I'd heard of in which the only notification for a deleted thread was something like, "No violation; we just deleted your thread" and I didn't like that at all, but really that was all one got from the prior version so I suppose I shouldn't have been complaining.

I don't like whatever it is (and I think the prime suspect is the censorship) that seems to have taken a lot of the life out of what was a really vibrant discussion. I don't see that the fault lies with the moderation; I would think a moderator's assignment would be to judge compliance rather than set standards. There have been some suggestions that what we're seeing now is due to very strict controls being put in place to start. The implication is that controls can be relaxed as things move forward. I haven't seen anything from LL regarding that and I hope the question gets asked in the session on Thursday. I will be working in RL (as usual for that time of day).

And to the OP--count me on the "don't like 'em" side of the Kudos/Ranks debate. But in reply to your sightings of Lindens here--both Amanda and Lexie have posted to threads in this Topic started by residents. That may not be what you meant but I see it as pretty positive. 

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Luc Starsider wrote:

 

PeterCanessa Oh wrote:


@Luc - unfair to LL?  I applaud their interest in the technology of SL and would love them to tell us a little about it some time (over a fortnight since the last communication from LL here on any subject).  The last time I saw a Linden in-world was around 2 years ago, I think.  That's partly because I don't go to office-hours, so can't blame them for that.  Oddly enough many technology-based companies
also
work hard on customer-relations and communications, LL does not appear to do that.  I will, however, accept that they do frequently communicate using twit-face, but none of the in-world or specifically SL tools (such as these fora & blogs).

My point is that the strategic decisions about Answers in particular are not popular but, genuinely, I was voting a 'hoorah' for the moderators

Ooops! I had kind of hoped it came across that I was being a bit sarcastic with my reply.

What I meant to say, in plain word, is that while the technology might be interesting enough, that's just a part of the story. I don't think hardly any of the lindens, with the exception of a couple, are interested enough in SL to actally give a damn. Following up what's happening with this forum/blog platform, or caring enough about whats going on among the SL residents, seems to be to much work, so I guess we have to be content with the odd blog post telling us what new feature we're getting that we never asked for. And the improved communication initiative we were promised. Aside from renaming the office hours to user groups, I haven't noticed any difference. But then again, I don't use twitter. Actually, using twitter makes sense. Less time wasted typing. If they are doing a blog post, they have to write more than 140 characters, right? That's a lot of work, you know
:D

You also must be right about the moderators. I haven't noticed them, so they must be doing a good job.

As for the Lithium platform. I haven't really thought much about it. Not sure I like it any more than the previous one, but it works. Don't have anything against it, though, so it's all right.

- Luc -

 

@ Mr. Oh: What is a fortnight? Is "twit-face" twitter or facebook, or a cutesy condescending combination of both?

@ Luc: Really? Do you really believe the paid employees of LL aren't interested in SL? If you had told me that the young employee of a fast food restaurant wasn't interested in the success of failure of his employer's chain because he was only working there part time as punishment because of lousy grades at school, then I could see your point, but really? I would imagine anyone who worked for a company that specializes in a popular virtual world had some interest in it and isn't just there passing the time, or is there some dark underbelly to LL? ( /me imagines a sort of setting like in the movie Office Space)

officespace.jpg

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

@ Mr. Oh: What is a fortnight? Is "twit-face" twitter or facebook, or a cutesy condescending combination of both?

 

A fortnight is a period of two weeks. I believe it's a contraction of 'fourteen nights'. It's a very old expression which is seldom used in the US but I think is quite current in the UK and probably other places where English is spoken.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:


Charolotte Caxton wrote:

@ Mr. Oh: What is a fortnight? Is "twit-face" twitter or facebook, or a cutesy condescending combination of both?

 

A fortnight is a period of two weeks. I believe it's a contraction of 'fourteen nights'. It's a very old expression which is seldom used in the US but I think is quite current in the UK and probably other places where English is spoken.

 

Fortnight is indeed in common use here in the UK to describe a period of 2 weeks. I never knew it wasn't widely used in the U.S. - I love it how i learn something new every day due to the global nature of SL. :)

I'm surprised it's never come up before because I'm sure I must have said "fortnight" to one of my U.S. friends at some point. The again, they are always just looking at me funny when I use a very British idiom and don't bother to question it anymore! :smileyvery-happy:

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

I have noticed the moderators, and in mostly a positive way. There have been
posts
from moderators (a first for me--I certainly never saw that happen on the previous platform). We've had threads started in one topic moved to another. In more than one instance an Off Topic thread was moved to one of the 'public' topics. I also like that when someone gets a moderator's wrist slap, the someone is notified as to the reason for the slap. There was one instance I'd heard of in which the only notification for a deleted thread was something like, "No violation; we just deleted your thread" and I didn't like that at all, but really that was all one got from the prior version so I suppose I shouldn't have been complaining.

I was thinking that I haven't noticed them because they haven't been getting in anybody's way (not that I've seen anyway). They have been going about their business, doing the things you list, to everybody's (well, probably not everybody's) satisfaction in a way that seems to work.

I'm a bit ambivalent regarding kudos. I like giving kudos to people and posts that I feel deserve them, but don't care about getting them... Could that be arranged; that we can give kudos, but not receive them?:)

Linden sightings... I was thinking in world, in a everyday mingling/chatting to the residents sort of way. I have seen a few replies in some forum posts, but mostly in a 'we're listening (but not hearing you)' or 'thanks for bringing it to our attention, we might do something about it someday' or 'here's how the feature works' kind of way. Not in a 'getting into the meat of the discussion' kind of way. Don't know if you have some other kind of communication in mind? I'd be glad to se something that would change my mind... (I hope I'm able to get across what I mean, but maybe not...) (This is also, I think, outside of the subject of the thread, so maybe I'll stop it here)

- Luc -

 

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:


Luc Starsider wrote:

 

PeterCanessa Oh wrote:


@Luc - unfair to LL?  I applaud their interest in the technology of SL and would love them to tell us a little about it some time (over a fortnight since the last communication from LL here on any subject).  The last time I saw a Linden in-world was around 2 years ago, I think.  That's partly because I don't go to office-hours, so can't blame them for that.  Oddly enough many technology-based companies
also
work hard on customer-relations and communications, LL does not appear to do that.  I will, however, accept that they do frequently communicate using twit-face, but none of the in-world or specifically SL tools (such as these fora & blogs).

My point is that the strategic decisions about Answers in particular are not popular but, genuinely, I was voting a 'hoorah' for the moderators

Ooops! I had kind of hoped it came across that I was being a bit sarcastic with my reply.

What I meant to say, in plain word, is that while the technology might be interesting enough, that's just a part of the story. I don't think hardly any of the lindens, with the exception of a couple, are interested enough in SL to actally give a damn. Following up what's happening with this forum/blog platform, or caring enough about whats going on among the SL residents, seems to be to much work, so I guess we have to be content with the odd blog post telling us what new feature we're getting that we never asked for. And the improved communication initiative we were promised. Aside from renaming the office hours to user groups, I haven't noticed any difference. But then again, I don't use twitter. Actually, using twitter makes sense. Less time wasted typing. If they are doing a blog post, they have to write more than 140 characters, right? That's a lot of work, you know
:D

You also must be right about the moderators. I haven't noticed them, so they must be doing a good job.

As for the Lithium platform. I haven't really thought much about it. Not sure I like it any more than the previous one, but it works. Don't have anything against it, though, so it's all right.

- Luc -

 

@ Mr. Oh: What is a fortnight? Is "twit-face" twitter or facebook, or a cutesy condescending combination of both?

@ Luc: Really? Do you really believe the paid employees of LL aren't interested in SL? If you had told me that the young employee of a fast food restaurant wasn't interested in the success of failure of his employer's chain because he was only working there part time as punishment because of lousy grades at school, then I could see your point, but really? I would imagine anyone who worked for a company that specializes in a popular virtual world had some interest in it and isn't just there passing the time, or is there some dark underbelly to LL? ( /me imagines a sort of setting like in the movie Office Space)

 

Maybe I went a bit far before... Basing my opinion on how things are at my own place of work (which is specialized but in a different area than SL), places I have worked in the past, places I hear about from other. I believe some Lindens are not interested in SL as a community, yes, and don't 'Get' Second Life, and rather wonder what makes people sign up for it. I believe some of them DO 'Get' Second life, and are passionate towards it, and will work quite hard for it. I  believe some of them are more interested in the technical platform that our world runs on top of, and the infrastructure required to make it turn around, than in the social aspects of it.I realize there are overlaps between the different elements, and the different parts interconnects and have to work together, but let me put it like this; I think that if Linden Labs had recruited their employees from the SL population, of which many people live and breathe SL AND have the background required, I think we would see a different type of passion, interaction and drive to create the best virtual society possible than we do today.

If I'm wrong; Great! I would like to be wrong about this, actually. If I'm right; I don't know, but I'll probably still be here. I like it here.

(And like I said in my previous post; this is probably outside of the issue of this thread, so probably best to leave this part now...)

- Luc -

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@ Luc: Very well said. That is a very good explanation you have offered me (not to imply in the least that I was due an explanation) and I now have a better understanding of what you are saying. I had not had your perspective of the situation before and I am glad you were able to explain it to me. Thank you for your patience and ability to reply in a civilized manner. I too like it here, very much so.

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Luc Starsider wrote:

 Linden sightings... I was thinking in world, in a everyday mingling/chatting to the residents sort of way. I have seen a few replies in some forum posts, but mostly in a 'we're listening (but not hearing you)' or 'thanks for bringing it to our attention, we might do something about it someday' or 'here's how the feature works' kind of way. Not in a 'getting into the meat of the discussion' kind of way. Don't know if you have some other kind of communication in mind? I'd be glad to se something that would change my mind... (I hope I'm able to get across what I mean, but maybe not...) (This is also, I think, outside of the subject of the thread, so maybe I'll stop it here)

- Luc -

 

I don't think discussing LL participation in the forum is off-topic for this thread. Inworld, maybe (I've never seen a Linden inworld ever, but if I ever catch up with Torley I aim to have a Torley bear. Like most, I'm a fan).:smileyhappy:

I have seen some instances in which there was Linden forum participation and not just in the 'we're listening' but in the 'and we did something' mode. I mean, the new Reply feature alone is clearly the result of listening, and it is an improvement on the Jive version. I assume it is a standard feature of Lithium so why it wasn't available from the start I don't know; the important thing is it's available now. There have been other direct responses. In fact I'm starting to think I'm being kind of ungrateful for complaining about anything.

I am not sure why the 'tone' of the Forum is so different, but I still think it has to do with limits put in place to make us look like we're model citizens to the outside world. I may be wrong. Maybe it's just because a lot of the prior forum regulars haven't come back, or if they have come back they've not been very active. Maybe it's because nobody really knows how to get a fire started (this subsection so far seems to me to be the best place for that). Either way, that isn't a moderation issue.

It's Wednesday night/Thursday morning depending on your RL time zone.  This thread is a couple of days old. Is there any chance it would still have been alive three months ago? I think not. I find that positive.

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

I don't think discussing LL participation in the forum is off-topic for this thread. Inworld, maybe (I've never seen a Linden inworld ever, but if I ever catch up with Torley I aim to have a Torley bear. Like most, I'm a fan).:smileyhappy:

I have seen some instances in which there was Linden forum participation and not just in the 'we're listening' but in the 'and we did something' mode. I mean, the new Reply feature alone is clearly the result of listening, and it is an improvement on the Jive version. I assume it is a standard feature of Lithium so why it wasn't available from the start I don't know; the important thing is it's available now. There have been other direct responses. In fact I'm starting to think I'm being kind of ungrateful for complaining about anything.

I am not sure why the 'tone' of the Forum is so different, but I still think it has to do with limits put in place to make us look like we're model citizens to the outside world. I may be wrong. Maybe it's just because a lot of the prior forum regulars haven't come back, or if they have come back they've not been very active. Maybe it's because nobody really knows how to get a fire started (this subsection so far seems to me to be the best place for that). Either way, that isn't a moderation issue.

It's Wednesday night/Thursday morning depending on your RL time zone.  This thread is a couple of days old. Is there any chance it would still have been alive three months ago? I think not. I find that positive.

Yupp, Me too. Fan of Torley. /me stands up to be counted. :)

Torley is actually an example of what I mean. He used to be a resident before becoming a Linden, right?. From what I can tell, he is still an SL resident at heart. His approach - his perspective/his starting point - in his videos, in his responses to posts on the forum, answers and what-not is to 'amplify your awsome'. See; he starts out with the people in mind, with the community of SL, to become something more and better. He shows and explains the technical aspects, the features of the community, viewer, whatever, from that vantagte point. (Because I have so much respect for this kind of approach and the what he does, I choose to overlook his fondness for watermelon... :P)

When other Lindens responds to posts and comments it seems to me that the technical aspect that is the dominating one. First of all (and this is based on just what I've seen and read myself, so I might have missed a whole bunch of replies), responses are given because a lot of feedback is given, stating whatever feature in question is not working as it should, or as wanted, or that there are privacy/security aspects related to this feature that need to be looked at again. Then when the response is given it is often to explain how the concerns of the responders are not necessarily technically right. Or it is to say that some changes will be made based on feedback. The problem is that the responses more often than not completely ignores the main concerns and focus on some small detail that is really not that important.

The last 6-8 months, I've frequently reacted with a big 'WHAT???' to things I've read regarding new features that have been thrust upon us, responses to concerns and changes to these features from the feedback. Case in point: In this jira, Bitterly Sweet says: 'how about the fact that over 100 people want them removed or opted out yoz? it really shouldn't matter why!' I wholeheartedly agree. Technically, the subject of the jira is not really a big deal, but If the community was the starting point, the jira would most likely not have been needed.

That particular jira was closed at one point for being 'expected behavior', but has later been reopend by Yoz Linden. Her response is right along the lines of what I consider the right way of doing things. WTG Yoz! Technically, the feature was working as expected (or as programmed) so in that case LL was right. From a community standpoint, it is utterly wrong in my opinion. (I'm waiting to see what happens next...)

Another example. In the OP, PeterCanessa Oh points out that kudos and ranks are not wanted by most. Why are they still there? Technically they are, I suppose, a nice feature to have on a community. Lots of features, you see. But when most participants in the community do not want this feature; shouldn't it be turned off? (I'm sure it's easy to do)

Your expample above is good to; Why was not the reply feature enable in the beginning? But you're right. It's there now. Kudos to whoever is responsible for enabling it!

I must have bored most people to tears going on like this, but I hope I managed to stay more or less on topic. I'll try to write less and shorter in the future, but I truly believe part of our frustration with whats going is somewhere in these ramblings.

- Luc -

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

I don't think discussing LL participation in the forum is off-topic for this thread. Inworld, maybe (I've never seen a Linden inworld ever, but if I ever catch up with Torley I aim to have a Torley bear. Like most, I'm a fan).:smileyhappy:

Ooh ooh, is there where I get to brag that I do have a Torley bear? ;)

More seriously and in response the OP, I do see very clear signs that LL is responding to feedback and trying to make the forum more useable. The Community Tools User Group meeting transcripts give some insight that they are listening. I don't know if today's transcript is up yet, but I intend to peruse it later.

One positive thing I want to add about the moderators is that although they started out very heavy-handed, I've seen signs that they have relented at least somewhat as the moderation policies evolve. For instance, there is one thread (maybe more, but I only know of the one), where a mod unlocked a thread they had previously locked. On the old forum, that never would have happened in a million years.

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@ Luc: No, reading your responses is not boring at all. In fact, it raises some questions, I believe, and by raising questions I don't mean in a 'what you are saying is wrong' kind of way but in a 'where are these facts coming from' kinda way. How do we know most people don't like Kudos? Isn't there indeed a way to turn them off? When people say, I don't want Kudos, I just want people to be able to find the answers they need, isn't that like saying, oh, I just pulled that baby from the fire because that's what anyone would have done. Well, congratulations for doing that good deed/providing that helpful answer, now let the rest of us who value your contribution to our society award/acknowledge you in some small way at least. Kudos just means thank you if I am not mistaken, so why does it hurt to get them? The hatred or dislike of ranks: it's not like a real world promotion where you get a higher salary or get to be in charge of others, its just a way for others to notice that hey, this person has contributed to our society in a positive way and is not just some temporary alternate account trying to cause trouble kinda thing. That's the way I see it. I started out as an honored resident and that makes me feel good. 

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Luc Starsider wrote:

I believe some Lindens are not interested in SL as a community, yes, and don't 'Get' Second Life


 

wait - "some" ? You previously stated that it was "all of them, with the exception of a couple". That meant "243 people on a total of 245 aren't interested".

Now it's "some people"?

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