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Canoro Philipp

Should have Second Life been divided by versions?

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many games in the industry, including many types of software, are divided by versions, some are divided by year, Second Life has been the same product since its inception, it has been transforming to bring more features, new viewers to access the same world, should have Second Life be divided by versions, accesing different worlds per version?

let's say Second Life without scuplties would have been one version, that world would be easy to handle by low end computers, if some residents wanted to stay in that world they could, it would run fast, but wouldn't look so pretty, another world/version would be with sculpties, without mesh, some computers would find it easy to handle, and for the people that didn't like mesh they could have stay in that version of Second Life, today's version, with many special effects on textures, lighting, mesh, new bones, would be for new computers that can handle it all, each version would have a minimum computing requirements.

like Microsoft Office, Battlefield, FIFA games, in each version they felt refreshed, and the ones that have computers that coulnd't handle the new versions they could stay using their favorite one, if Second Life would have been divided by versions, it wouldn't have been necessary to stop new features because it wouldn't have been compatible with old hardware, the people with old hardware maybe would have been happy to access only, let's say, Second Life 2008, while the ones with the latests hardware would happily be accesing Second Life 2016, with features exclusive to run in the newest hardware, let's say DirectX12, taking out features that wouldn't work with computers older than 2013.

instead of the same product extending itself to work on old computers and new computers, should Second Life have been divided by versions, different worlds for each version, where everybody would access the world that their computers can handle?

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I don't see how that could work without fragmenting the user base.  The administration and management of the marketplaces, inworld experiences etc. would be too difficult and unworkable for merchants.

 

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I agree with Sassy, SL survives in large part due to the inworld economy; to fragment that would harm the economy as content creators would be building for multiple platforms and there are only so many hours in the day.

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I have thought of that, the population would be fragmented, some users would have accounts in Second Life 2003, 2007, 2010, and 2016, some people would have stay just in Second Life 2005, some would have stores in all versions, some in just the latest version.

the sum of all users of various versions would make the whole Second Life population, and each version would be adding income to Linden Lab.

I thought of that because some people complain that they are being left behind and without possibility to access Second Life anymore because new changes, and some people complain that Second Life looks outdated, because Linden Lab has to stretch out to make Second Life work on the oldest hardware.

Linden Lab could use low end servers to keep Second Life 2003 running, with only prims and without windlight, and dedicate the most powerful ones to run Second Life 2016.

some may be happy not being in the latest version, just using Second Life 2010, when they buy a new computer they will consider opening an account to Second Life 2016.

inventory: like different version of Photoshop, Microsoft Office, you may be able to transfer old inventory items to the latest version of SL, but the new items wouldn't be backwards compatible.

if we would have a revamp in newest versions, we could have had more detailed system avatars per version, and some features that make use of the new hardware without causing disruption to old viewers.

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Which games are divided by versions ? You can still play older online games because they didn´t shut the servers but looking at the userbase there it´s "empty".

Maybe for other games you only need 4 - 5 people but in SL most places now are already empty. Split the users in groups would make SL (1-2-3) even more empty and useless.

When the new product from Lindens arrive, targeted on expensive hardware and high end computers, people who can afford will go and try but let´s see how many will stay if, like alot places in SL already, only have 2-3 guests per event.

It´s not about the creators, SL lives and dies with peoples attend to events and places.

Monti

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maybe the world would look less empty if it wasn't so big, was thinking in smaller land area per version, current land area is big enough to hold old users and new users, the emptiness that we have is because of lack of interest of the media to promote Second Life.

imagine if in the news something comes up saying that Second Life is working in the new version, 2017, showing in E3, with the look that current hardware allows, maybe looking like Sansar, without the problems of the previous versions, like the different versions of Microsoft Windows, people would come to try it.

a problem I see in the press is that if they talk about a product made in 2003, that wouldn't be news, they are more focused in what is coming next, bringing something new to the readers.

maybe the focus in events would be more in the latests versions, where everybody would have a more realistic experience, and yeah, the events hold in version 1 would be more empty. maybe Linden Lab would discontinue support for earlier version like Microsoft ended support for Windows XP.

if Second Life was divided by versions, everybody would have a fast experience, low end computers would run Second Life 2003 fast, and current computers would run the latest version very fast, maybe around 60 fps.

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This wouldn't work at all.  It's just to complicated to administer too for merchants and LL.

If people can't use SL because they have an old computer that is I am sure upsetting to them.  But all things move forward.  If your computer is that old you probably can't do much with it anymore but use old software email and light surfing.

If SL is so important people to them, they can save for a newer computer or upgrade parts to their current one. They could get a part time job and earn the money, even if it was just flipping burgers.

Many corporations get new computers ever few years and donate the old to charity places that sell them in thrift stores.  I know someone who for years bought their computers there for a song and they weren't that old.  You can even buy stuff there to put build a computer if you keep an eye out and keep checking there. 

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maybe if the separation between versions would be more separated in time, it could work?

like every 5 years a new version?

a computer you buy now would guarantee to show Second Life at its best for 5 years.

we can leave behind users happy in their only-prims world with no windlight, while we enjoy the latest tech that Linden Lab is working on.

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Seems daft - come back when you hit ten years :) or 15 (in SL terms plus plug for SL 13 Birthday)

My old box might complain but can handle all SL as it is.

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

I have thought of that, the population would be fragmented, some users would have accounts in Second Life 2003, 2007, 2010, and 2016, some people would have stay just in Second Life 2005, some would have stores in all versions, some in just the latest version.


A successful merchant will folllow the money.  I don't believe there's much money to be gained from creating content for obsolete PC's and would have no interest in a) creating content for "old" versions purley to keep users with no money happy b) nor spending the admin effort in maintaining the costs of stores/content across multiple versions.

It makes no sense.

If you look at the fashion sector which is by far the largest, the trend is mesh and has been for a long time.  It doesn't matter that some people don't want to use it, their PC IS capable because they have to use a viewer which is capable of rendering it.

The only content that would be typically offered would be legacy stuff created ages ago and that would be just admin effort and cost.

As for reducing the size of SL in each "version", the problem there is that SL lives on the fact that it's big (as far as LL is concerned) because their cost model is all about selling land.  I agree that SL is too big and that makes it anti-social but it sells the dream of land ownership and owning this big space in which you can develop your own space.

Then coming back to the issue of server hardware, it'd have to defer to those who may have more insight over LL's current platform but it's my bet that the hardware that they ran in 2004 no longer exists.  A corp the size of LL with the number of servers that they run would be at high risk running their current platform on obsolete hardware that will be out of warranty, nor would they want to be paying for extended warranty on obsolete equipment.

What they could do, would be to stack up more regions per host for your "old version" SL but that would be more like the way that homesteads share a processor core.  This said,, virtualisation has developed dramatically since the beginning of SL so the options to tune how this could work will have developed significantly.

It still wouldn't work overall though, people don't really join something new to be stuck in the past and so you're just catering for people with no money and succesful companies follow the money.  Sorry!

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Do you really spend your Second Life just hanging around your own parcel, pottering around with a few bits and bobs, maybe chatting with a friend or two, and taking the occasional visit to a Linden area?

Do your friends mean so little to you that you'd be willing to ditch those who don't own the level of technology for the version you want to spend most of your time on?

Those sorts of scenarios are the reality of your proposition. Either you haven't really thought this through or you do not understand SL. We need more people involved, not spread over multiple versions.

 

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Second Life is user created so there already are islands without sculpties and islands without mesh. i thought the whole point is that everything is on one world. 

 

There are other virtual words you can join that have not been upgraded as much as SL but i wouldnt want to limit myself like that.

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Second Life isn't really a "game" in the traditional sense but a constantly growing world. As in RL. the old makes way for the new. What you propose would be like, in RL, This is town X and you don't upgrade the plumbing or infrastructure because people don't want to by phones or electric lights or cars so we leave that one and just build an upgrade Town X over here and so forth. 

The games you are talking about with different versions or years are self contained and don't change within them due to user changes. SL is dynamic and contantly changing. New things are constantly being added to this world called SL. Better scripting, more imaginative creations in clothing and buildings, etc. 

That's the big difference between SL and games. SL is a dynamic, constantly changing world, just like RL is.

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Canoro Philipp wrote:Linden Lab could use low end servers to keep Second Life 2003 running, with only prims and without windlight, and dedicate the most powerful ones to run Second Life 2016.

My understanding is that it actually requires more server power to run "all prim" regions than the current ones. Heavily manipulated prims are a physics calculation nightmare.

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None of your examples it compareable with what Second Life is. In this aspect, Second Life is closer to MMORPGs and those do not maintain a string of new games every couple of years that split the userbase. It just doesn't suit this type of games/platforms. Everything that relies on a "one world" concept can't do that.

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Linden Lab has been losing users because a) they don't have means to buy new hardware to support new features, so their only choice is to stop being a client to Linden Lab, I have read many comments about people that were renting land from the lab, but due to some changes, they are unable to continue supporting the Lab, and b) they come, see that is a software that has traits of an old game and go find something more modern.

nobody is going to force a merchant to have a store in every version, or to have a store at all, they could just have one branch in the versions they are interested.

when they buy new hardware I suppose they don't donate the old computers, they could use them because they spend less power, or the new ones could easely run a version of secopnd life without scuplties.

Imagine if Photoshop would be at the base the first version of Photoshop with a lot of updates and upgrades to make it feel more modern, it wouldn't be able to compete with software that is being coded at its root with modern instructions, a problem that Second Life has is that it is at its core a software from 2003 with a lot of updates, like with Sansar, sometimes you have to start fresh.

 

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I understand what the division would mean, but do you really want to lose friends that don't have the hardware enough to keep up with the latest changes? I read comments from all around the world that they are being forced to leave Second Life, that they have better priorities in life than buying a new computer, that what they earned in Second Life help them pay the bills.

wouldn't it be nice that they could stay in a world that their computers can handle, and you could still go and visit them?

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LL has listened to those whose graphics cards can't keep up, hence the jelly baby rendering of avis over a set rendering cost to make it easier on the graphics card. 

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the constant change is one of the attractions to this world, is one of the features that captivate me about Second Life.

was proposing the idea thinking of the ones left behind, all of those that have died because of progress, to have a place to still live, a place to exist.

and also, to change the view of Second Life, Second Life could have been much more capable if it wouldn't to worry about catering to old hardware, it may be as impressive as Sansar, but the progress has been constrained by compatibility.

if the versions of Second Life would be called something else, would it be alright? Linden Lab having multiple virtual worlds as products, some that require less hardware, to cater to the weak computers user base, Second Life, and something like Sansar, that make use of the newest hardware.

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maybe different virtual worlds aimed at different audiences with different hardware requirements would do, keeping those worlds transforming thru time, without sacrificing what makes them stay.

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The ecomany was damaged the day Mp took flight, many sim owners relied on shops being rented to pay for tiers, once that income had gone many fell to the wayside, there is so much abandoned land ,Linden dont even show it anymore in Map.

 

So to divded it will be another hammer to SL as we know it

 

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

maybe different virtual worlds aimed at different audiences with different hardware requirements would do, keeping those worlds transforming thru time, without sacrificing what makes them stay.

But that is exactly what would happen, if the Lab was to chop Second Life into different pieces. Some or all of those pieces would collapse and die, due to lack of population. You seem to have the impression that a Second Life version of 2004 would draw in enough people to substain itself. I don't believe that there are that many people who would suddenly start joining SL, if you gave them this seperate version.

 

And you would need new people joining just for that 2004 version. Because it wouldn't be worth maintaining a second grid, if it wouldn't mean a big chunk of new users comes. Because those who are already on the maingrid are there, no matter what. They would only very rarely become more profitable that they already are.

Its also up to debate how many users with low perfroming hardware this would actually get into SL. You still need more than an office pc and a good internet connection. Also the reality and the wishes of the users differ often greatly. Many would not want settle for "less", even if thats what their system would be capeable of.

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Canoro Philipp wrote:

I understand what the division would mean, but do you really want to lose friends that don't have the hardware enough to keep up with the latest changes? I read comments from all around the world that they are being forced to leave Second Life, that they have better priorities in life than buying a new computer, that what they earned in Second Life help them pay the bills.

wouldn't it be nice that they could stay in a world that their computers can handle, and you could still go and visit them?

Right. So, instead of using something simple like email to stay in touch with those who have left SL for one reason or another, you want me to hop back and forth between multiple versions in hopes of logging in at the right times to visit with Friend A in Ye Olde Version 1 who has a lousy internet connection, Friend B who stayed in Ye Olde Version 2 because that's where her best friend and sim-mate needs to be because his mother's dog ate the mouse, Friend C who is set in his ways and likes Version 3, and Version 4 cause that's where my shop is cause that's where the vast majority of shoppers are and my field is nicher than niche.

When, in all of that, am I supposed to build anything new for my shop? According to your plan, I'm going to be spending all of my time version-hopping instead of carrying on two conversations while testing new textures and waiting for someone else to log in.

And speaking of testing new textures, we're going to be in a bit of a pickle because that Friend C, the one who is set in his ways, is my much obliging guinea pig for trying things on and testing against different male skin tones. Friend B helps me with scripts and is my go to for checking perms and stuff right before a hunt. It wouldn't be the same without both of them in the same world and the likelihood of them being in different versions is about 100%.

I'm going to need your help in managing all of this. Would you like to be my store assistant and secretary? I won't be able to pay you, especially after my customer base is fragmented. I'm sure you won't mind. :matte-motes-smile:

 

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