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Security Orb Creators and Owners

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2 hours ago, Claireschen Hesten said:

 security orbs should be set to at least one minute warning before TPing. This one is in Tangna

it should be reported for setting people up to violate my rights as landowner .... a whole minute..... absurd.

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9 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

it should be reported for setting people up to violate my rights as landowner .... a whole minute..... absurd.

1) They aren't "rights."

2) It's not "land."

3) You don't "own" it.

 

Any other questions?

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13 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

1) They aren't "rights."

2) It's not "land."

3) You don't "own" it.

 

Any other questions?

Well fundamentally you never really own land, only the state owns it and grants you a lease that can be revoked for any reason.

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15 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Any other questions?

to you no... back to previous state of ignoring i guess, works best for me, seems to be difficult to get a normal ib topic response from you to people who don't agree with your prejudices.

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6 minutes ago, Ethan Paslong said:

to you no... back to previous state of ignoring i guess, works best for me, seems to be difficult to get a normal ib topic response from you to people who don't agree with your prejudices.

Taken wrong doesn't mean it's not right.

(And yes, any reader is completely justified in thinking, "Oh for cryin' out loud..." right now, as if this thread hadn't reached that point long ago.)

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1 hour ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Well fundamentally you never really own land, only the state owns it and grants you a lease that can be revoked for any reason.

Not even the state can own land, anymore than you own the air you breathe.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Not even the state can own land, anymore than you own the air you breathe.

Historically, of course, this was one of the basic areas of cultural misunderstanding as westward expansion in the U.S. brought European attitudes about land ownership into conflict with Native American tradition.

Edited by Rolig Loon
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3 hours ago, Ethan Paslong said:

it should be reported for setting people up to violate my rights as landowner .... a whole minute..... absurd.

Apologies if you've answered this already, Ethan, but just out of curiosity, how much of a warning seems to you to be reasonable?

Do you think 0 seconds is "reasonable"? (We can agree that it is within the owner's rights to set it at that, but I'm not asking that: I'm asking whether you think that is justifiable?)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

Historically, of course, this was one of the basic areas of cultural misunderstanding as westward expansion in the U.S. brought European attitudes about land ownership into conflict with Native American tradition.

It was (and is) more than that. The idea of "owning land" was/is a completely alien concept that had/has no basis in reality. 

Edited by Selene Gregoire

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Just now, Selene Gregoire said:

It was (and is) more than that. The idea of "owning land" was a completely alien concept that had no basis in reality. 

That's exactly where I was going.  That basic gap in cultural approaches to the land meant that Native Americans signed over their land in treaties and land deals without realizing what they were doing, and then were treated as trespassers on land that they had ceded.  There was plenty of misunderstanding on both sides, but the advantages were all on the side with heavier weapons and industrial technology.

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6 hours ago, Claireschen Hesten said:

On my recent travels round Jeogeot on Route 10 in particular i noticed someone has been buying small pockets of roadside land and putting up these "Good neighbour commandments for second life mainland" obelisks one of which is security orbs should be set to at least one minute warning before TPing. This one is in Tangna

1415693123_Orbcommandments_001.png.0245852f413e0499caf40b6031cc2456.png

This is great! And what a creative way to spread the message of how not to be a jerk! Anyone know where to get these? I'd love to put some up myself and might even start buying up some tiny spots like this person is doing.

4 hours ago, Ethan Paslong said:

it should be reported for setting people up to violate my rights as landowner .... a whole minute..... absurd.

Setting aside the ridiculous response to the idea of a whole minute, which is a tiny amount of time, how in the world does someone setting their security orb have anything to do with your rights as a landowner? Isn't your whole point that it's yours and you get to do whatever you want and nobody else has any business complaining and all that other "me me me me me me" stuff? Seems to me that your own position means that setting up these obelisks is okay and anyone has every right to set a one minute timer (or longer) if they want to. Your own position means you have absolutely no business complaining.

I'm going to try and get my hands on some of these and put them out on my land. I expect that there will be no complaints from any of these people complaining about how they should get to do whatever they want with their land.

 

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2 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

That's exactly where I was going.  That basic gap in cultural approaches to the land meant that Native Americans signed over their land in treaties and land deals without realizing what they were doing, and then were treated as trespassers on land that they had ceded.  There was plenty of misunderstanding on both sides, but the advantages were all on the side with heavier weapons and industrial technology.

The problem is, the concept doesn't have a basis in reality. 

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1 hour ago, Female Winslet said:

This is great! And what a creative way to spread the message of how not to be a jerk! Anyone know where to get these? I'd love to put some up myself and might even start buying up some tiny spots like this person is doing.

When i was inworld earlier seeing one on Route 9A i did investigate who was behind them they started out life as being Mole made before being owned by someone else who may have slapped the textures on before being owned by someone call Reklame, if that's any help

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1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

reality

    The Moment by Margaret Atwood

The moment when, after many years
of hard work and a long voyage
you stand in the centre of your room,
house, half-acre, square mile, island, country,
knowing at last how you got there,
and say, I own this,

is the same moment when the trees unloose
their soft arms from around you,
the birds take back their language,
the cliffs fissure and collapse,
the air moves back from you like a wave
and you can't breathe.

No, they whisper. You own nothing.
You were a visitor, time after time
climbing the hill, planting the flag, proclaiming.
We never belonged to you.
You never found us.
It was always the other way round.

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2 hours ago, Claireschen Hesten said:

When i was inworld earlier seeing one on Route 9A i did investigate who was behind them they started out life as being Mole made before being owned by someone else who may have slapped the textures on before being owned by someone call Reklame, if that's any help

I managed to investigate and track them down. They are made by a mole and the texture is original. Look at the mole's profile and it tells where to get one. You can also IM me in world and I'll send you one if you want it. 🙂

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4 minutes ago, Female Winslet said:

I managed to investigate and track them down. They are made by a mole and the texture is original. Look at the mole's profile and it tells where to get one. You can also IM me in world and I'll send you one if you want it. 🙂

I've been seeing more of those lately. I have one of the mole-made originals. Here are all four sides.

commandments1.thumb.png.da9aac8ee855bbdc4158db6813d857b0.pngcommandments2.thumb.png.8a7408030ef5354425b36c10c3926c63.png

Really, being a jerk about land is a bit much. It's not that big a deal.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Apologies if you've answered this already, Ethan, but just out of curiosity, how much of a warning seems to you to be reasonable?

Do you think 0 seconds is "reasonable"? (We can agree that it is within the owner's rights to set it at that, but I'm not asking that: I'm asking whether you think that is justifiable?)

i think 15/20 seconds should be more than enough .. a minute is just absurd, that gives time to pass 3 sims. ...

take your watch, or pc/laptop clock, and see how long 20 seconds really is, if you can't take action in this time you won't get done in a hour either...

Edited by Ethan Paslong
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1 hour ago, Ethan Paslong said:

i think 15/20 seconds should be more than enough .. a minute is just absurd, that gives time to pass 3 sims. ...

take your watch, or pc/laptop clock, and see how long 20 seconds really is, if you can't take action in this time you won't get done in a hour either...

Well, from my own experience as a mostly SL pedestrian, 20 seconds seems not unreasonably reasonable. When I get a warning from an orb, I usually high tail it out as fast as I can, because you never know what an orb will actually do to you if you stick around. I don't enjoy being orbited. The only problem arises on occasion when i panic and become confused about the direction to go.

I don't have enough experience as a boater or flyer to know whether 20 seconds is sufficient reaction time: perhaps someone here who is can comment?

I guess my next question is . . . what sort of awful things do you imagine that an intruder might be able to do in the extra 40 seconds that a one-minute warning would give them? Are you trying to prevent some form of abuse to your land? Or is that really not the point, and this is about asserting your ownership?

It just seems to me that 20 seconds doesn't actually make your land more "secure" than 60 seconds would. 20 seconds seems a bit arbitrary, in that sense.

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4 hours ago, animats said:

I've been seeing more of those lately. I have one of the mole-made originals. Here are all four sides.

commandments1.thumb.png.da9aac8ee855bbdc4158db6813d857b0.pngcommandments2.thumb.png.8a7408030ef5354425b36c10c3926c63.png

Really, being a jerk about land is a bit much. It's not that big a deal.

Allow Rez and set autoreturn, isn't that dangerous? Even if I set autoreturn at a short time, isn't there griefertools that duplicate prims faster than humans can, and when the land is filled, my objects is returned?

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FWIW, 20 seconds is not enough time if I have a vehicle stuck in a banline, a car turned wrong on rough or narrow ground or a separation of a skipper and a passenger after a botched sim crossing. It’s also not enough if I’ve had to set my wind to a low low speed so I can very slowly navigate a narrow strip of Linden water. 

Also I’m not sure everyone knows how to use the Firestorm mini map to show parcel lines at the middle setting. So they’re steering purely by visual cues according to what has managed to rezz for them. 

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A "standard" time for orbs frankly isn't very realistic, as the time it takes someone to vacate a parcel depends on:

a) the size of the parcel

b) the speed the person is traveling.

An orb set at 10 seconds for an entire region (256m) means the intruder (if they continue to travel a straight course through the region) needs to travel at over 25 metres per second to make it across. The speed of an avatar running is 5.15 metres per second, the speed of an avatar flying (not in a vehicle) is 16 metres per second. The "normal" speed at which most people fly or use motorboats is around 13-17 metres per second. Sailboats..... about 7 metres per second. So you can see the issue here: full region, 10 seconds = panic 😅

Now, of course, whether in an aircraft or motorboat, or not in a vehicle at all, the sensible thing to do is turn around and leave the parcel the same way you entered - that's much less distance to cover. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately ;)  ), most vehicles in SL don't simply turn on a dime, and sailboats simply can't spin around and race off in the opposite direction.

However, you play out that same scenario on someone's typical 1024 or 2048 parcel (32 or 64m long) mainland parcel, and suddenly there is no issue at all.

In the end it comes down to common sense, people who want to use orbs should allow a decent amount of time, (say 10 seconds on a smallish parcel, up to 30 seconds for an entire region), and vehicle users should remember that it's a privilege to fly over someones land, not a right ;)

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

 needs to travel at over 25 metres per second to make it across

of course the sailors/drivers/flyers won't agree with me, but it's not meant to get across, but to get out at the quickest and shortest way.

8 minutes ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

vehicle users should remember that it's a privilege to fly over someones land, not a right

ehm.. people won't love you anymore now  :)

Edited by Ethan Paslong

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1 minute ago, Ethan Paslong said:

of course the sailors/drivers/flyers won't agree with me, but it's not meant to get across, but to get out at the quickest and shortest way.

Which is exactly what I said further down in my post. I'm a regular sailor/driver/flyer, and I don't have any issue in turning round and getting out as quick as I can.

The problem for sailors is that "quickest AND shortest" is often mutually exclusive - everything's fine until you turn round and try and sail into a headwind 😃

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1 hour ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

Now, of course, whether in an aircraft or motorboat, or not in a vehicle at all, the sensible thing to do is turn around and leave the parcel the same way you entered - that's much less distance to cover. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately ;)  ), most vehicles in SL don't simply turn on a dime, and sailboats simply can't spin around and race off in the opposite direction.

Remember, though, the "security" script is responding to detecting your presence. No matter how that detection is done, it's not instantaneous. By the time a script can figure out that an intruder is llOverMyLand() several seconds may have passed, and it's very possible the intruder has already passed through the parcel by the time the script's warning dialog makes it to a viewer. All this is exacerbated by script lag -- and a region can seem to have perfectly normal performance in every other way and yet scripts are delaying each other by seconds.

I've simply quit paying any attention to the warnings at all because by the time I see a warning the odds are quite small that it's relevant to the land I'm on. (It's probably less likely in my case because I'm generally trying to follow Linden protected routes when I see the warnings.)

People who have "security" scripts are generally the least informed about how they work. If they actually understood the limitations, many wouldn't entertain having the things on their land for love or money.

Incidentally, the llOverMyLand function and the risk of being warned after you've already passed through the parcel are about a genuine ToS violation on which the landowner can be AR'd: text spam. The rule has always been that a script must only message avatars while they're on land owned by the device owner (including greeters, etc.) unless the recipient has opted-in to the messaging (as with group notices, subscribe-o-matics, etc). If they've already passed through and yet a script issues them a warning, that's technically a violation. The bare minimum a script should do is call llOverMyLand to be sure the recipient is eligible to be messaged at that instant, but of course if they cross outside the parcel before the message actually gets to their viewer, it's still a violation, so a better strategy would be to calculate the intruder's trajectory and make sure they'll still be on the parcel for at least a few seconds to accommodate script lag and messaging network delay. I expect most orb scripters go with llOverMyLand and hope their customers never realize the risk.

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