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1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

A right is not a "thing"!!! You can't point to someone and say, "Oh, look! An inalienable human right!"

It is an IDEA, a PRINCIPLE. It exists regardless of whether I, or Amina, Kiera, or anyone else is actually enjoying it at that moment. We don't hold it in our hands, for god's sake: it exists universally!!!

You are failing I think to get the point.....your human rights declarations are just damn words, they are meaningless aphorisms, at the end of the day someone shoots you in the head you are still dead whether you want to debate whether they merely violated your human rights or removed them. Its hot air, its waffle, its meaningless

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Yes your analogy is perfect, if you steal my car and I cant get it back off you then you own it and I don't. This stupid fiction you believe in that somehow the car is still mine even though I will never be able to drive it or see it again is just that a fiction. Unless I can enforce ownership of that car and either stop you taking it or getting it back when you do then no I do not own that car for longer than it takes you to steal it

Then stop talking about "ownership" as though it were a real principle that existed. Just stop using the word: it's meaningless. You don't "own" anything, for the same reason that I apparently don't have "rights."

You are disappearing down the wormhole, Kanry: almost ANY concept flickers and vanishes if you want to start applying this concept widely.

You are going to find yourself swimming in a weird void of utter meanlessness, And let me tell ya, you're going to be swimming alone, cuz I ain't jumping in after you.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
Typing too fast!!
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4 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Let me be perfectly clear, because I thought I had. There is no such thing as human rights, they are a fiction created by our rulers to make us believe we have more than we have. They exist only in your mind.

I see tin foil.

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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

A right is not a "thing"!!! You can't point to someone and say, "Oh, look! An inalienable human right!"

It is an IDEA, a PRINCIPLE. It exists regardless of whether I, or Amina, Kiera, or anyone else is actually enjoying it at that moment. We don't hold it in our hands, for god's sake: it exists universally!!!

Humanity ceases to be, those "Rights" cease to be. Funnily enough, when Humans first evolved... those "Rights" did not exist.

Therefore it does not exist "universally" - at all.

If you're going to harp on semantics, use better terms.

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Just now, Solar Legion said:

Humanity ceases to be, those "Rights" cease to be. Funnily enough, when Humans first evolved... those "Rights" did not exist.

Therefore it does not exist "universally" - at all.

If you're going to harp on semantics, use better terms.

As I don't believe in a divine being, actually, I hold that all meaning IS ultimately human in origin. The universe is a pretty darned pointless thing without us. (And maybe it doesn't care? But we should.)

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1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

Humanity ceases to be, those "Rights" cease to be. Funnily enough, when Humans first evolved... those "Rights" did not exist.

Therefore it does not exist "universally" - at all.

If you're going to harp on semantics, use better terms.

Idea's and principles are non existent, in two hundred years from now morals will have shifted and a lot of what you think of an universal human rights will be scoffed at just like they were two hundred years ago

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14 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Let me be perfectly clear, because I thought I had. There is no such thing as human rights, they are a fiction created by our rulers to make us believe we have more than we have. They exist only in your mind.

Yes your analogy is perfect, if you steal my car and I cant get it back off you then you own it and I don't. This stupid fiction you believe in that somehow the car is still mine even though I will never be able to drive it or see it again is just that a fiction. Unless I can enforce ownership of that car and either stop you taking it or getting it back when you do then no I do not own that car for longer than it takes you to steal it

A few posts up, Kiera asked you if you believed that "might makes right" and you replied "Where have I said that?"

Well, you've said it pretty explicitly here.

I'm going to choose to believe that you had one branch of thought a bit earlier in this discussion, didn't think it through and are now desperately trying to cling to it because for some reason that is more palatable to you than simply saying, "eh, now that I think about it, maybe not". 

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We all have the right to live don't we? Let's say the answer to that is yes.

On one hand we have someone saying that the right to live can be taken away by the act of murder.

On the other hand we have someone saying that right can't be taken away because (even though you are now dead) you still have the right to live.

Both things are true. 

Think about that.

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Human rights are an attempt to make the world a better place. So many more have freedom, or are gaining freedoms, that did not exist before. Think of gay rights, or women's rights, or minority rights.  I'm glad people are paying attention to respect for all and trying to bring about a fairer world, no matter how imperfect or daunting the effort may seem at this time.

1. We Are All Born Free & Equal. We are all born free. We all have our own thoughts and ideas. We should all be treated in the same way.

2. Don’t Discriminate. These rights belong to everybody, whatever our differences.

3. The Right to Life. We all have the right to life, and to live in freedom and safety. 

4. No Slavery. Nobody has any right to make us a slave. We cannot make anyone our slave. 

5. No Torture. Nobody has any right to hurt us or to torture us. 

6. You Have Rights No Matter Where You Go. I am a person just like you! 

7. We’re All Equal Before the Law. The law is the same for everyone. It must treat us all fairly. 

8. Your Human Rights Are Protected by Law. We can all ask for the law to help us when we are not treated fairly. 

9. No Unfair Detainment. Nobody has the right to put us in prison without good reason and keep us there, or to send us away from our country. 

10. The Right to Trial. If we are put on trial this should be in public. The people who try us should not let anyone tell them what to do. 

11. We’re Always Innocent Till Proven Guilty. Nobody should be blamed for doing something until it is proven. When people say we did a bad thing we have the right to show it is not true. 

12. The Right to Privacy. Nobody should try to harm our good name. Nobody has the right to come into our home, open our letters, or bother us or our family without a good reason. 

13. Freedom to Move. We all have the right to go where we want in our own country and to travel as we wish. 

14. The Right to Seek a Safe Place to Live. If we are frightened of being badly treated in our own country, we all have the right to run away to another country to be safe. 

15. Right to a Nationality. We all have the right to belong to a country.

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1 minute ago, Amina Sopwith said:

A few posts up, Kiera asked you if you believed that "might makes right" and you replied "Where have I said that?"

Well, you've said it pretty explicitly here.

I'm going to choose to believe that you had one branch of thought a bit earlier in this discussion, didn't think it through and are now desperately trying to cling to it because for some reason that is more palatable to you than simply saying, "eh, now that I think about it, maybe not". 

No I have my own set of ethics I live by, in that might makes right plays no part....

however I don't have the arrogance some of you have and insist my ethical code should apply universally

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5 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Humanity ceases to be, those "Rights" cease to be. Funnily enough, when Humans first evolved... those "Rights" did not exist.

Therefore it does not exist "universally" - at all.

Who gives an eff about that?  It's what humans are doing NOW that counts.

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14 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

We all have the right to live don't we? Let's say the answer to that is yes.

On one hand we have someone saying that the right to live can be taken away by the act of murder.

On the other hand we have someone saying that right can't be taken away because (even though you are now dead) you still have the right to live.

Both things are true. 

Think about that.

Of course you still have the RIGHT to live, just as you have the RIGHT to live without the consequence of any violation of your human rights. The right has been violated, in some cases without the possibility of recompense, but it still exists intact as a principle.
 

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Just now, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

Human rights are an attempt to make the world a better place. So many more have freedom, or are gaining freedoms, that did not exist before. Think of gay rights, or women's rights, or minority rights.  I'm glad people are paying attention to respect for all and trying to bring about a fairer world, no matter how imperfect or daunting the effort may seem at this time.

1. We Are All Born Free & Equal. We are all born free. We all have our own thoughts and ideas. We should all be treated in the same way.

2. Don’t Discriminate. These rights belong to everybody, whatever our differences.

3. The Right to Life. We all have the right to life, and to live in freedom and safety. 

4. No Slavery. Nobody has any right to make us a slave. We cannot make anyone our slave. 

5. No Torture. Nobody has any right to hurt us or to torture us. 

6. You Have Rights No Matter Where You Go. I am a person just like you! 

7. We’re All Equal Before the Law. The law is the same for everyone. It must treat us all fairly. 

8. Your Human Rights Are Protected by Law. We can all ask for the law to help us when we are not treated fairly. 

9. No Unfair Detainment. Nobody has the right to put us in prison without good reason and keep us there, or to send us away from our country. 

10. The Right to Trial. If we are put on trial this should be in public. The people who try us should not let anyone tell them what to do. 

11. We’re Always Innocent Till Proven Guilty. Nobody should be blamed for doing something until it is proven. When people say we did a bad thing we have the right to show it is not true. 

12. The Right to Privacy. Nobody should try to harm our good name. Nobody has the right to come into our home, open our letters, or bother us or our family without a good reason. 

13. Freedom to Move. We all have the right to go where we want in our own country and to travel as we wish. 

14. The Right to Seek a Safe Place to Live. If we are frightened of being badly treated in our own country, we all have the right to run away to another country to be safe. 

15. Right to a Nationality. We all have the right to belong to a country.

Human rights make nowhere a better place because they arent enforced....when the states started torturing where was the enforcement? When the iranians started throwing gays off tall buildings where was the enforcement?

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1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

however I don't have the arrogance some of you have and insist my ethical code should apply universally

You didn't say, which part of the Universal Declaration of Human rights do you disagree with?

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Just now, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

You didn't say, which part of the Universal Declaration of Human rights do you disagree with?

I disagree with the idea of human rights full stop unless they are going to have an international body that enforces them it is just theatre

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1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

Human rights make nowhere a better place because they arent enforced....when the states started torturing where was the enforcement? When the iranians started throwing gays off tall buildings where was the enforcement?

Never said it was perfect, but we have to start somewhere. At least some people have some rights, and we have a basis to encourage people not to throw others off buildings.

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1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

I disagree with the idea of human rights full stop unless they are going to have an international body that enforces them it is just theatre

It's international.

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Just now, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

Never said it was perfect, but we have to start somewhere. At least some people have some rights, and we have a basis to encourage people not to throw others off buildings.

oh yes the united nations will write a weakly worded memo, oh but no it wont because various countries will veto it due to oil interests or something. Big deal

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14 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

No I have my own set of ethics I live by, in that might makes right plays no part....

however I don't have the arrogance some of you have and insist my ethical code should apply universally

And yet you said that if Scylla steals your car, it would be a "stupid fiction" to claim that you own it. Sounds pretty "might makes right" to me.

I'm just going to leave the idea of human rights being dismissed as "arrogance" to stand alone. I can't say anything to make it sound worse than it does by itself.
 

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2 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Of course you still have the RIGHT to live, just as you have the RIGHT to live without the consequence of any violation of your human rights. The right has been violated, in some cases without the possibility of recompense, but it still exists intact as a principle.
 

Am I really the only one that sees the similarities between the two sentences? 

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Just now, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

It's international.

It is toothless and cant enforce anything, frankly it would be no loss to shut the whole thing down as all it actually does is cost people like you and me money sending useless people to have useless talks

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13 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Am I really the only one that sees the similarities between the two sentences? 

No, but the point is the difference between the intactness of the principle, which remains even when the principle itself is violated. Sometimes rights are violated beyond recompense, as you most definitely know. It still doesn't compromise them as principles, and simply intensifies the wrong that was done.



 

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1 minute ago, Amina Sopwith said:

And yet you said that if Scylla steals your car, it would be a "stupid fiction" to claim that you own it. Sounds pretty "might makes right" to me.

I'm just going to leave the idea of human rights being dismissed as "arrogance" to stand alone. I can't say anything to make it sound worse than it does by itself.
 

The arrogance is believing your ethical code supersedes others

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:
5 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

Never said it was perfect, but we have to start somewhere. At least some people have some rights, and we have a basis to encourage people not to throw others off buildings.

oh yes the united nations will write a weakly worded memo, oh but no it wont because various countries will veto it due to oil interests or something. Big deal

Have you not seen the improvement in the lives of gays and women in some countries due to viewing them as humans who should have the same rights as all other humans?  People of color too. 

Edited by Kiera Clutterbuck
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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

 It's what humans are doing NOW that counts.

That's nice.

You missed the entire point - bravo.

As are quite a few others attempting to pretend that "Universal Human Rights" or anything similar .... actually exist beyond our belief that they do.

They're a nice idea and helpful when trying to make lives better - and that's all they are.

Edited by Solar Legion
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