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Slee Mayo

Security Orb Creators and Owners

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Basically what all the anti-orb people in this thread are say is, you want to dictate to me what i do with my land. My land.. That i pay for.

I have my orb set to 30 seconds and it only goes 40 meters up. I STILL get between 5-10 offline messages that someone has been ejected daily. Often it's two people at the same time. So tell me, why should i open my land up to strangers to bump pixels on? They show up when i'm there too. Just walk on the land and into my house while i'm sitting there building, watching a movie or chatting with a friend.They hop on the furniture and start going through poses before the orb kicks them. Then i get the IM caling me names.

But it's MY fault you can't enjoy SL, right?

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Qie Niangao wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

You can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't think it's necessary to have object entry on to allow vehicles in. I don';t think that turning it off prevents them.

That's correct. What disabling object entry
does
is prevent any object 
on which nobody is sitting
from crossing its 
origin
(mid-point) into the parcel.

Except in the case of an ongoing griefer attack, this is
almost never
what the landowner is really trying to do with this setting. Rather, it is very likely to cause them more trouble than benefit. That's because it acts as a kind of "trap" for any passing stuff that an errant script or a distracted builder may push in the parcel's direction.

Sure, the landowner may not really want that stuff crossing through their parcel, but it's better if it crosses and maybe makes its way to safety than if it gets stuck on the barbed wire border.

(This used to be a much bigger problem when certain unmanned vehicles roamed the roads, as some may recall.)

Are they gone now? I hadn't noticed since I stopped doing the Starchild Rally. If they're gone, what caused it? It's excellent though.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Basically what all the anti-orb people in this thread are say is, you want to dictate to me what i do with my land. My land.. That i pay for.

I have my orb set to 30 seconds and it only goes 40 meters up. I STILL get between 5-10 offline messages that someone has been ejected daily. Often it's two people at the same time. So tell me, why should i open my land up to strangers to bump pixels on? They show up when i'm there too. Just walk on the land and into my house while i'm sitting there building, watching a movie or chatting with a friend.They hop on the furniture and start going through poses before the orb kicks them. Then i get the IM caling me names.

But it's MY fault you can't enjoy SL, right?

Of course it's your fault. Who do you think you are, wanting to prevent people from using your stuff? Stuff is for everybody. Everyone knows that.

;)

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Phil Deakins wrote:If they're gone, what caused it? It's excellent though.

They're gone. The owner's accounts seem to have disappeared, having been repeatedly suspended in the past. 

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theres a lot of LDPW roads, oceans and byways on mainland SL to drive fly and boat on

there can be times when we do have to cross private-owned mainland parcels when there is no alternative public route, but when flying, boating and flying driving in random directions then we do encounter random obstacles to overcome

i have pretty extensive experience of vehicles and mainland travels and adventures. And have pretty much encountered every random obstacle that ever was. The key to enjoying our travels is to plan our trip. Unless we enjoy random then just go for it and whatever happens is just part of the experience

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Christhiana wrote:

Ok, let's have a look at this from the landowners perspective.....

I have a small parcel at a corner of two intersecting linden waterways in the heterocera lower delta.

I have a security orb installed but have it set to passive and I even have object entry turned on. So everyone with a vehicle can fly over and sail through my land.

All to often when I am building, one of them so called 'explorers' comes racing through the builds on my parcel in a speedboat that's too big and fast to be controlled on the narrow waterways of the lower delta. Sometimes they just park their boat in the middle of whatever I'm building try to start a conversation and then leave the boat in the middle of my build and teleport away again. I have had the same happen with flying vehicles in my skybox. I've logged onto second life many a times only to find another helicopter stuck in my skybox. Personally I can live with this and don't see it as a reason to set my orb to eject people or disable object entry for my parcel. But I can imagine a landowner can get really fed up with this and decide to lock anyone out of their parcel.

Eventually I will be putting a shop on my piece of land and you can bet I'll disable object entry then. I don't want to log onto SL only to find that a boat is stuck in half of my vendors for the past few hours. Let alone open myself up to a griefer attack!

 

The lower delta is one of the most difficult places to explore. The protected waterways are often at angles, there are lots of banlines, it is very easy to lose your boat on a sim crossing. Often when you do, if your passenger is still on the boat they will see you still at the helm, whilst you see your self in the corner of a sim underwater or flying through the air. If they stay on the boat then it gives the person that was doing the steering time to see if they can recover their avatar, perhaps doing one or two relogs and then getting a teleport from the passenger to get back. If the person is sailing or flying alone, then getting back to find their vehicle is often almost impossible it could anywhere several sims in any direction from where you last saw it.

For the land owner, setting object return at 5 minutes is the best setting, for the most part it will tidy up litter from their land, clear up griefer garbage. One exception to that is if they have group entry on (ie banlines) the vehicle will often get stuck between the two parcels. in that case the banlines have created the problem for the landowner.

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Basically what all the anti-orb people in this thread are say is, you want to dictate to me what i do with my land. My land.. That i pay for.

I have my orb set to 30 seconds and it only goes 40 meters up. I STILL get between 5-10 offline messages that someone has been ejected daily. Often it's two people at the same time. So tell me, why should i open my land up to strangers to bump pixels on? They show up when i'm there too. Just walk on the land and into my house while i'm sitting there building, watching a movie or chatting with a friend.They hop on the furniture and start going through poses before the orb kicks them. Then i get the IM caling me names.

But it's MY fault you can't enjoy SL, right?

Yes, anti-orb people want to restrict orbs using 10 second or less timers, or in the case of this thread, 30 seconds.

No need for you to complain and get dramatic about it since you already have those settings.

Just because someone can do something, doesn't mean they should. Just like if someone moved next to you and made their parcel a home for their 30 alt bot accounts, you would not be too happy. Or if they put up group entry only and the view you paid for is now spoilt by flashing yellow lines on one side, or they put up some other form of offensve build. Or they made their land a sandbox. Particles from their emitters spill across your land, or someone wearing a "defence hud" is wandering around inside your private orb protected space, because they can and they know it will irritate you.

Living on mainland is about living as part of a community, it requires respect for your neighbours for it to work properly. Otherwise the investment, which could be in the 100s of thousands of Linden dollars is devalued by a factor of ten because of the anti-social jerk that moved in next door.

The suggestions made about orbs and banlines on this and other threads, do indeed restrict options for landowners, but the benefits to themselves and others far outweigh what is lost. Not least because it goes some way to protecting landowners own investments in the land.

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Aethelwine wrote:


Yes, anti-orb people want to restrict orbs using 10 second or less timers, or in the case of this thread, 30 seconds.

No need for you to complain and get dramatic about it since you already have those settings.

Just because someone can do something, doesn't mean they should. Just like if someone moved next to you and made their parcel a home for their 30 alt bot accounts, you would not be too happy. Or if they put up group entry only and the view you paid for is now spoilt by flashing yellow lines on one side, or they put up some other form of offensve build. Or they made their land a sandbox. Particles from their emitters spill across your land, or someone wearing a "defence hud" is wandering around inside your private orb protected space, because they can and they know it will irritate you.

Living on mainland is about living as part of a community, it requires respect for your neighbours for it to work properly. Otherwise the investment, which could be in the 100s of thousands of Linden dollars is devalued by a factor of ten because of the anti-social jerk that moved in next door.

The suggestions made about orbs and banlines on this and other threads, do indeed restrict options for landowners, but the benefits to themselves and others far outweigh what is lost. Not least because it goes some way to protecting landowners own investments in the land.

Anti-orb people, anti-landowners, anti-all... Please let people safe and stop to complain about all. Forget us a little and have fun on your Land.

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Luxen wrote:

 

Anti-orb people, anti-landowners, anti-all... Please let people safe and stop to complain about all. Forget us a little and have fun on your Land.

Feel free, my spaces are all open for people to enjoy. You can find them in my picks.

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Luxen wrote:


Aethelwine wrote:

Maybe a clever scripter could make a vehicle detect banlines and do that reliably?

It's a good idea and It's possible, so i think some scripters already worked on this.

yes. Is a few nav huds that can do this. Quite a few regular mainland travellers have then

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Aethelwine wrote:

One exception to that is if they have group entry on (ie banlines) the vehicle will often get stuck between the two parcels. in that case the banlines have created the problem for the landowner.


i just get in here, so that if a Linden ever reads this then they will see and maybe we will get

what I would like is that when we are on vehicle then when hit a parcel banline then we just bounce off it (and not get stuck). Same as avatars do

and in the same way already when on a G account and on a vehicle and just get bounced off when hit a M sim boundary and are able to turn round and carry on flying/driving/boating

 

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The mainland is both a blessing and a curse.  It's a blessing that you can do what you want and a curse that your neighbors can too.  You can have the best neighborhood on the mainland and have someone sell out to another person who comes along and builds something hideous or causes other problems, Bay CIty and other planned communities being the exception.

When you buy most mainland you have no idea what the sim will look like in the future.  It's always a gamble.  If you want a community with rules then you move to private regions that have them or the few areas of mainland that have covenants. 

The fact is that most mainland is a place were anything goes and people that want no rules go to the mainland where there is no covenant and no one can tell you what to do (as much as you wish your vision would prevail).  The rule there is that the person paying gets to decide.  Under the TOS, no one has a  right to go on another's property if the owner doesn't want you there for any reason or none at all. You had to agree to this to get in SL. Not everyone wants 'community'.

As far as ban lines devaluing property, I don't see it.  If property is up for sale there, I can see it if the neighbor has an ugly or inappropriate building for the neighborhood, but having ban lines on your own property won't matter because anyone with sense will turn them off while the property is for sale and the buyer can then decide to use them or not. Further, if you don't like to see ban lines from your property that block the view you can turn them off visually.

I will say that I always thought mainland would be more in demand and get better prices if LL did establish various zoning rules.  Not only by type, commercial and residential zones. but zones for people like you that want community and no restrictions on entering other people's land, and zones for those that don't want community, don't want people coming on their property or don't want rules. 

We used to leave all our mainland property on the Blake Sea open until the people on the sim next to mine harassed us and invaded our privacy obnoxiously several times a day, even when we were there.  We tried to negotiate with the owner but were told where to get off.  Blocking/derender was not effective because the population changed constantly and we got sick of ejecting and banning people all the time.  Our only choice was to install an orb at ground level to do that and protect our privacy (yes we had to protect the entire property due to this).  We certainly weren't going to move, as we liked our location and very reasonable rent.

 

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Christhiana wrote:

I don't want to log onto SL only to find that a boat is stuck in half of my vendors for the past few hours.

There's always autoreturn.

This is what works for me:

  • Most of my rentals are sized to fit the 4x4 m grid so the inside of the house can be partitioned off as a separate parcel
  • Scripts: anybody
  • Object entry: anybody
  • Build: group only on the house parcels, anybody elsewhere
  • Autoreturn: 1 minute inside houses, 5 minutes elsewhere
  • Most of the houses can be screened from outside view and/or sound if the tenant want it (most don't actually) but again, only the inside of the house.
  • No ban lines - ever!

The only exception is the KimKy store. I can't have autoreturn there because the vendors can't be assigned to my landowner group and that means I had to restrict object entry and building there too.

So far this has been enough to prevent all object littering and land griefing on my land with no problems for my tenants and a minimum of inconvenience to visitors.

As for intruders, I generally expect people to respect each other's privacy. If there are problems, I usually just assign the tenant to the surpervisor role in the group so they can ban and evict intruders themselves. Lockable doors help a lot too. It's not foolproof of course but it still stops the vast majority of intruders.

Even so, there are cases when a security orb is the only option. Some people are concerned about stranegrs entering their homes while they're away, I don't know all my tenants well enough to entrust them with ban/eviction rights and there was this case where two tenants turned out to be old enemies...

So if a tentant wants a security orb, they get it. The settings are:

  • The orb only covers the interior of the house/skybox and the space 30 m above and below.
  • Warning time is ten seconds (plenty of time since the orb's range is so limited)
  • The rude default warning message is replaced with a friendly one. (And of course, one that mentions that there are lots of other lovely houses for rent in the area. I don't think I ever got a new tenant that way but it's free advertising and you never know.)

Unfortunately I can't do anything about the neighborhood. The worst thing are the unattended no-autoreturn parcels. The only option you have to keep spammers and litterers away, is to fill them up with invisible phantom prims. That of course means no vehicles can enter them.

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Alwin Alcott wrote:

you simply keep in denial that others pay for your enjoyment, land is just less worth when you have to allow others on it all the time, there's no point to buy it than.

 Visitors on my land don't cost me anything, I have to pay the tier anyway. By keeping my land as open as possible for everybody I get to meet lots of interesting people, I get more green dots showing up on the big map, I hopefully help a little bit making SL a better place for everybody and every now and then one of the visitors becomes a good tenant and/or customer.

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ChinRey wrote:

 Visitors on my land don't cost me anything, I have to pay the tier anyway.

yes i agree to that totally, but my post was against some here that claim it is their right to have access to fly over. There is not.

Visitors don't claim...

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Alwin Alcott wrote:


ChinRey wrote:

 Visitors on my land don't cost me anything, I have to pay the tier anyway.

yes i agree to that totally, but my post was against some here that claim it is their right to have access to fly over. There is not.

Visitors don't claim...

Except that isn't true on several levels.

The post you replied to was one where I was specifically talking about parcels around public access routes, not peoples rights to fly over any parcel,

It is also false to say there is no right to travel across other parcels, Linden Lab have acknowledged that right in the way they have set up land permissions, in particular such that parcel restrictions only extend to about 40m in height. That right is not absolute right of course it is balanced with the use of entitiy orbs, which is discussed on the wiki where it states "a too fast teleporting from a parcel can be considered an abuse ". Ref

Their discussion and suggestions on how to run parcel security interesting and balanced, balancing the rights of those to travel with those of landowners.

As I understand it, once upon a time orbs were restricted to 96m range. I am curious to know if anyone remembers when that changed.

 Also my point about excessive security damaging land values is illustrated by the huge difference in land value between those parcels with access to waterways (and less so roads) than those without. The land values are higher in the more desirable locations, where people have more freedoms to roam and explore. Putting up those restrictions inappropriately, does damage resale value for neighbours.

When someone puts banlines up around a river system and digs it out so the banlines extend across the visible water way, they spoil the access route and damage the land value of their neighbours and everyone else on that water way. On reflection the selfish person doing this may well improve their own land value using antisocial permissions because neighbours and those using the waterway have the added incentive to buy them out to restore the route and their land values. It is perverse that the current system can reward antisocial behaviour.

(Edited last paragraph later so it made sense)

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Orbs weren't restricted at all. Not as such. It's just that there's a maximum scan distance of 96m, so an individual object couldn't scan further than that, and still can't.

More recently an LSL function to get the names and distances of all avatars in the sim was introduced, and so security orbs started to use that instead of scanning. In effect all avatars in the sim are 'scanned'. Each one is dealt with according to whether or not it is within a certain range or over the owner's land. When they were introduced, I don't know, but it's not all that long ago.

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Slee Mayo wrote:

For security orb creators:

 

Why not add a feature to check the agent that enters the parcel to see if they're sitting, if they're sitting, assume they're exploring the grid via a vehicle, give them at least 30-60 seconds to pass through the parcel.

The 'sitting' part of your post has been adequately dealt with, so I'll only address the part concerning the amount of time allowed. As a security device creator (they are not all orbs ;) ), I couldn't do that. Creators don't set the time allowed. The user does that, and creators can't impose a lower limit, such as you suggest. It's entirely up to the owner how much time s/he wants to allow people to move on. 30 seconds isn't bad but 60 seconds is a long time, and there's no need for it. When you see the message, you are supposed to move on as quickly as you can, and 30 seconds is plenty of time to do it. You are not supposed to have a look around for a while before moving on ;) Why owners don't want you to look around is their business, and not the business of security device creators.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Orbs weren't restricted at all. Not as such. It's just that there's a maximum scan distance of 96m, so an individual object couldn't scan further than that, and still can't.

More recently an LSL function to get the names and distances of all avatars in the sim was introduced, and so security orbs started to use that instead of scanning. In effect all avatars in the sim are 'scanned'. Each one is dealt with according to whether or not it is within a certain range or over the owner's land. When they were introduced, I don't know, but it's not all that long ago.

I remember when I ran a sim a few years ago and we got repeatedly griefed the security system I was using required me to set up loads of sensors around the sim to prevent new accounts. The system I used may not have been a state of the art modern system, I just went with the one that had good reviews and it wasn't cheap. But setting up security then across the full height of a sim I remember being very complicated. It took me hours to set up and a lot of reading and head scratching and testing.

So I can understand why that LSL function would be a good idea, the sad side effect is that it also creates some of the problems those using aircraft complain about now.

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Yep. That was when the only method avialable was the sensor (scan), which has a maximum range of 96m. There are probably plenty of those devices still in use. I only updated the one I sell a few months ago. I was late doing it, but now it does everything mentioned in this thread except try to asceratin whether or not an avatar is sitting. That isn't a realistic idea.

Yes it can create a problem for flyers, because it covers the whole sim, right up to the top. But that's only if the owner has it set to do that. I can't say anything about other orbs but mine gives the owner choices about it. I.e. it can be set to just deal with avatars within a range of the owner's choosing, so they don't need to cover the whole height of the land. I'm sure that all the later orbs do the same. They certainly should. It would be ludicrous to protect all 4096m of height when only a very small bit of it us being used.

ETA: I'm reminded of a forum user (I forget his name) who has one of my old model devices and he has it set to only cover his bed lol. He doesn't mind people in his place, but he does mind them using that particular facility. All orbs should offer choices like that, and I'm sure they all do. It's the owners who can go a bit overboard.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Slee Mayo wrote:

For security orb creators:

 

Why not add a feature to check the agent that enters the parcel to see if they're sitting, if they're sitting, assume they're exploring the grid via a vehicle, give them at least 30-60 seconds to pass through the parcel.

The 'sitting' part of your post has been adequately dealt with, so I'll only address the part concerning the amount of time allowed. As a security device creator (they are not all orbs
;)
), I couldn't do that. Creators don't set the time allowed. The user does that, and creators can't impose a lower limit, such as you suggest. It's entirely up to the owner how much time s/he wants to allow people to move on. 30 seconds isn't bad but 60 seconds is a long time, and there's no need for it. When you see the message, you are supposed to move on as quickly as you can, and 30 seconds is plenty of time to do it. You are not supposed to have a look around for a while before moving on
;)
Why owners don't want you to look around is their business, and not the business of security device creators.

You could set a minimum time of say 10 or 15 seconds though, but I can see there are cases where 0 seconds is appropriate, for example inside a skybox.

Would it be possible to only allow a zero second timer where people are defining the area that was scanned more precisely such that it would be only used for a sky box situation? and have a menu given limit of say 10 seconds on sim wide scanning?

You could market it as "neighbour friendly" or sell it as a bonus for making it easier and safer to use.

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Aethelwine wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:


Slee Mayo wrote:

For security orb creators:

 

Why not add a feature to check the agent that enters the parcel to see if they're sitting, if they're sitting, assume they're exploring the grid via a vehicle, give them at least 30-60 seconds to pass through the parcel.

The 'sitting' part of your post has been adequately dealt with, so I'll only address the part concerning the amount of time allowed. As a security device creator (they are not all orbs
;)
), I couldn't do that. Creators don't set the time allowed. The user does that, and creators can't impose a lower limit, such as you suggest. It's entirely up to the owner how much time s/he wants to allow people to move on. 30 seconds isn't bad but 60 seconds is a long time, and there's no need for it. When you see the message, you are supposed to move on as quickly as you can, and 30 seconds is plenty of time to do it. You are not supposed to have a look around for a while before moving on
;)
Why owners don't want you to look around is their business, and not the business of security device creators.

You could set a minimum time of say 10 or 15 seconds though, but I can see there are cases where 0 seconds is appropriate, for example inside a skybox.

Would it be possible to only allow a zero second timer where people are defining the area that was scanned more precisely such that it would be only used for a sky box situation? and have a menu given limit of say 10 seconds on sim wide scanning?

I'm sure that all orbs come with a default time. Mine is set at 20 seconds. After that, it's entirely up to the owner what time to allow. I can't programme a minimum into it though. I have to leave it to the owner's choice. I very much doubt that any orb's default is 0 seconds.

I don't understand your question in the second paragraph, but I wouldn't programme limitations into it. My view is that the owner has to have the ability to choose how s/he wants to use it.

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I was imagining a security system when the orb rezzed some sort of scripted prim or series of scripted prims that you could position as you wanted to define the area precisely where the zero timed action could occur.  I would think that functionality to protect your home, within its walls or precisely defined areas would be a selling point.

A bit like the way we limit some free roaming fish.

 

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