Thoughts on "Want Lower Tier? Now You Can Get Grandfathe​red Land Rates!"

[Phil Deakins]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

[...] they should leverage the advantages mainland has going for it -- or could have.

Otherwise they can probably expect a mass exodus. 

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NOOOOOOOOooooooo...... no more falling skies pleeeeeeeeze.

I can't take any more of them ..... :smileyfrustrated:

[Medhue Simoni]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Aethelwine wrote:

The 40 avatar limit and lack of Control to do things like restarts makes mainland a bad option now. If it wasn't for the transport routes and ability to explore sim to SIM there would be nothing going for mainland. They should think about pricing and do more rezoning. There are at least as many redundant water Sims where no one can get without living on the adjacent SIM as there are blocked or effectively blocked routes that could be fixed by moving Sims around. You can get around three quarters of the Atoll before you meet an impassable corner. It would be easy to move a few Sims so you can get around Nautilus or the continent to its south.

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Good ideas -- they should leverage the advantages mainland has going for it -- or could have. Otherwise they can probably expect a mass exodus. 

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Rezoning is a controlled solution, which requires the people in control to be right, which isn't likely. Just let the market decide. I'd even be for letting the market decide the upper limits. I could easily see prime land go above $200/month. Why limit the potential of the market? Yes, in the beginning, there will be lots of great deals for everyone wanting a sim. I bet a sim might go as low as $10/month. Again tho, something is better than nothing at all. As the market evolves tho, prices will rise overall, as residents start to actually compete for land. To me, a market solution for mainland would double LL's profits. I know that is bold to say, but I follow the Austrian School of economics, and this is a prime example in economic terms. It could be compared to breaking down the walls that separated east and west Berlin. The economic boom would be massive.

[Pamela Galli]

I lean toward the Austrian / Chicago school too, but I am talking about improving the product to make it more competitive. 

[Pamela Galli]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

[...] they should leverage the advantages mainland has going for it -- or could have.

Otherwise they can probably expect a mass exodus. 

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NOOOOOOOOooooooo...... no more falling skies pleeeeeeeeze.

I can't take any more of them ..... :smileyfrustrated:

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You are the one who gave me the idea.

[Perrie Juran]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Aethelwine wrote:

The 40 avatar limit and lack of Control to do things like restarts makes mainland a bad option now. If it wasn't for the transport routes and ability to explore sim to SIM there would be nothing going for mainland. They should think about pricing and do more rezoning. There are at least as many redundant water Sims where no one can get without living on the adjacent SIM as there are blocked or effectively blocked routes that could be fixed by moving Sims around. You can get around three quarters of the Atoll before you meet an impassable corner. It would be easy to move a few Sims so you can get around Nautilus or the continent to its south.

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Good ideas -- they should leverage the advantages mainland has going for it -- or could have. Otherwise they can probably expect a mass exodus. 

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Rezoning is a controlled solution, which requires the people in control to be right, which isn't likely. Just let the market decide. I'd even be for letting the market decide the upper limits. I could easily see prime land go above $200/month. Why limit the potential of the market? Yes, in the beginning, there will be lots of great deals for everyone wanting a sim. I bet a sim might go as low as $10/month. Again tho, something is better than nothing at all. As the market evolves tho, prices will rise overall, as residents start to actually compete for land. To me, a market solution for mainland would double LL's profits. I know that is bold to say, but I follow the Austrian School of economics, and this is a prime example in economic terms. It could be compared to breaking down the walls that separated east and west Berlin. The economic boom would be massive.

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"Just let the market decide."

But they did let the market decide and what did we get back then?  Ad Farms, Land Cutters, Resource Hogging Clubs that renderred Sims useless for anything else whether it be commercial or residential.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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"Just let the market decide."

But they did let the market decide and what did we get back then?  Ad Farms, Land Cutters, Resource Hogging Clubs that renderred Sims useless for anything else whether it be commercial or residential.

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Are you saying that nothing is better than something? Cause, I think you just proved yourself wrong. That said, I don't think it would be quite the same.

[Perrie Juran]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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"Just let the market decide."

But they did let the market decide and what did we get back then?  Ad Farms, Land Cutters, Resource Hogging Clubs that renderred Sims useless for anything else whether it be commercial or residential.

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Are you saying that nothing is better than something? Cause, I think you just proved yourself wrong. That said, I don't think it would be quite the same.

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No, I did not say, "Nothing is better than something."

We do need some regulation.  While I believe most people are altruistic and/or considerate of others it only takes a few who are not to run rough shod over all the others.

Basically controls should be the minimum necessary to deal with fraud and extortion.

This and I've been an advocate of minimal zoning on the Mainland for a long time now.

[Deltango Vale]

Zoning is nice in theory, but problematic. I think LL got it right with the original Mature and PG sims, though it was a mistake to put them side by side. Anything else is asking for trouble.

Good luck getting agreement on the 'regulations'. The bickering will be endless.

Good luck enforcing the 'regulations'. AR filings will soar as people complain about their neighbor's horses or pink roofs or garden hedges. LL will have to shut down Sansar and spend every man-hour cruising the mainland, chasing complaints and returning objects (which will reappear the next day because the landowner is disgruntled).

Good luck maintaining "Your World, Your Imagination". SL will become a nightmare of uniform banality.

Part of the answer is again to reduce tier, which will encourage residents to own larger parcels, which will reduce friction and encourages better parcel management. Zoning is a non-starter.

[Qie Niangao]

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Deltango Vale wrote: Zoning is a non-starter.

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I agree, but for a different (or anyway additional) reason: It's expensive to enforce. The Linden powers that be can barely remember that Mainland exists, and certainly don't suppose any significant resources should be invested in its upkeep.

I'm not particularly complaining about response to Mainland governance issues; it seems to be no worse than usual these days, and maybe even better (or maybe most griffers are otherwise occupied). But enforcing a new layer of Mainland rules using Linden-bought resources -- not gonna happen. They just don't understand what they've got with the SL Mainland, nor what it could be.

To be honest, I think LL doesn't understand what they've got with Second Life. I think they'll learn, once they blow through this Sansar thing and get back to Second Life, the one and only thing that has ever made a dime of Linden revenue. Remains to be seen if they'll still have a viable Second Life to fall back on at that point, or if they'll have killed it trying to find a market for Sansar.

That said, returning to the thread topic, I think cutting tier in SL and normalizing the "grandfathered prices" overhang -- that's getting SL closer to long-term viability. Now they just need to start cranking up the Marketplace fees, and developing unified Marketplace and in-world Search and commerce. Too bad it'll be delayed by the Sansar opportunity cost, but SL has suffered many generations of in-house distractions and acquired flops.

[Pamela Galli]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

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Deltango Vale wrote: Zoning is a non-starter.

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I agree, but for a different (or anyway additional) reason: It's expensive to enforce. The Linden powers that be can barely remember that Mainland exists, and certainly don't suppose any significant resources should be invested in its upkeep.

I'm not particularly complaining about response to Mainland governance issues; it seems to be no worse than usual these days, and maybe even better (or maybe most griffers are otherwise occupied). But enforcing a new layer of Mainland rules using Linden-bought resources -- not gonna happen. They just don't understand what they've got with the SL Mainland, nor what it could be.

To be honest, I think LL doesn't understand what they've got

with Second Life

. I think they'll learn, once they blow through this Sansar thing and get back to Second Life, the one and only thing that has ever made a dime of Linden revenue. Remains to be seen if they'll still have a viable Second Life to fall back on at that point, or if they'll have killed it trying to find a market for Sansar.

That said, returning to the thread topic, I think cutting tier in SL and normalizing the "grandfathered prices" overhang -- that's getting SL closer to long-term viability. Now they just need to start cranking up the Marketplace fees, and developing unified Marketplace and in-world Search and commerce. Too bad it'll be delayed by the Sansar opportunity cost, but SL has suffered many generations of in-house distractions and acquired flops.

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As a Mac user, I will not be in Sansar, but it is depressing to think of it,,after all the resources devoted to it, turning out to be a big flop.

[BarcodeBrian]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

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BarcodeBrian wrote: You can still have more land alone for the same money on Mainland.

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How? Do you mean the measly 10% group bonus and the paltry "bonus" 512 that comes with Premium? Because that's nothing like the 33% tier discount Mainland used to get compared to the $295/mo (non-grandfathered) full-sim Estate fee.

And even with that discount, Mainland was hard to justify because, let's face it, 33% is scant compensation for the limitations and aggravations of Mainland ownership. Some of us loved Mainland, but even some who have stuck with Mainland through years of Linden neglect are now looking seriously at the prospect of shedding all the annoyance and getting land we can actually

control

 -- for the same price per month (modulo the above-mentioned rounding errors).

If even I am considering dumping all my Mainland, the place is in trouble, and LL better devise another discount to make the place somewhat competitive again.

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I do realize it isn't anything like the difference it was. But it is still an advantage if the bare-bones acreage is the only thing so many use to base the value of what they both buy and sell.

That is also why I agreed that it would be nice to see a similar surprise for tier paying Mainland holders in the near future.

As it is, I am also considering dumping Mainland. I don't see a reason to cry about attempts to improve, retain, or grow private island ownership simply because I am not among that group. I do acknowledge a diminished value of Mainland but I also do not try to profit from any value of simple land ownership alone.

[Deltango Vale]

"To be honest, I think LL doesn't understand what they've got with Second Life. I think they'll learn, once they blow through this Sansar thing and get back to Second Life, the one and only thing that has ever made a dime of Linden revenue. Remains to be seen if they'll still have a viable Second Life to fall back on at that point, or if they'll have killed it trying to find a market for Sansar."

QFT

[Perrie Juran]

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Deltango Vale wrote:

Zoning is nice in theory, but problematic. I think LL got it right with the original Mature and PG sims, though it was a mistake to put them side by side. Anything else is asking for trouble.

Good luck getting agreement on the 'regulations'. The bickering will be endless.

Good luck enforcing the 'regulations'. AR filings will soar as people complain about their neighbor's horses or pink roofs or garden hedges. LL will have to shut down Sansar and spend every man-hour cruising the mainland, chasing complaints and returning objects (which will reappear the next day because the landowner is disgruntled).

Good luck maintaining "Your World, Your Imagination". SL will become a nightmare of uniform banality.

Part of the answer is again to reduce tier, which will encourage residents to own larger parcels, which will reduce friction and encourages better parcel management. Zoning is a non-starter.

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I probably should have been more explicit when I said "minimal zoning."  Sims would be rated either residential, commercial or mixed used.  We are seeing a semblance of this being done with the Linden Home Sims.

Remember the original vision was that commercial areas would go up around the telehubs and the outlying suburbs would be residential.  That was the vision but nothing was put in place to guide it in that direction.  Instead what many people refer to as the Wild West happenned.

And if you think larger cheaper parcels will stop turds from being turds I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.  Larger parcels for them will simply mean they can put out bigger turds.

I always thought that Zindra was backwards.  All the "G" Sims should have been segregated to their own vanilla continent.  Adult and Mature could have stayed put.

[Deltango Vale]

Good points. I must also agree with you that the mainland can be a junkpile. My solution was to consolidate sims. The downside is that it takes about a decade per sim.

There is a big part of me that wants to rant about the mainland. The problem is that one woman's junk is another's palace. If I see another castle, I think I'll puke, but hey, who am I to decide what's 'good' and 'bad'?

There are, of course, extremes of obvious griefing. There was a notorious case back in 2006-2007 of a seriously mentally ill resident who would buy 512s and pile them to the sky with trash. LL finally booted the person (I'm going out of my way to protect that person's identity, but anyone owning land back then knows who I'm talking about).

I have long thought about the problem of the mainland, but I have never found a satisfactory solution other than PG v Mature ratings for whole continents. The line between commercial and residential is difficult to determine. As with most things in life, there is a continuum. It's easy to compare the ends of a line (small cottage v monster mall), but the bulk of such lines are in the middle (as with any normal distribution).

Truly, the only REAL solution is not to have a mainland at all.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Remember the original vision was that commercial areas would go up around the telehubs and the outlying suburbs would be residential.  That was the vision but nothing was put in place to guide it in that direction.  Instead what many people refer to as the Wild West happenned.

 

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Possibly, we could compromise, like we have any say at all, lol.

I would be for zoning, if it only applied to the ground level, up to some limit. What I often find ugly, on the Mainland, is when owners put up mega prims with images to change their surroundings. So, they wanted an ocean view but can't have it, unless they use images. These people do this on the ground level when it doesn't really matter where their little paradise is, and the rest of us get to look at ugly walls, blocking everything. I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.

[Perrie Juran]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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Perrie Juran wrote:

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Remember the original vision was that commercial areas would go up around the telehubs and the outlying suburbs would be residential.  That was the vision but nothing was put in place to guide it in that direction.  Instead what many people refer to as the Wild West happenned.

 

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Possibly, we could compromise, like we have any say at all, lol.

</snip>

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I'd be shocked if LL did do anything.

It took a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth to get them to adress the ad farms despite the obvious blight they were.

 

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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<snip>

I would be for zoning, if it only applied to the ground level, up to some limit. What I often find ugly, on the Mainland, is when owners put up mega prims with images to change their surroundings. So, they wanted an ocean view but can't have it, unless they use images. These people do this on the ground level when it doesn't really matter where their little paradise is, and the rest of us get to look at ugly walls, blocking everything. I mean, it just doesn't make any sense.

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I find them slightly annoying too but for now can live with them.  Though I agree they'd make more sense up in a sky box, especially given the added benefit that there tends to be less lag in the sky.

 

eta:clarity

[Medhue Simoni]

Not really replying to Perrie, but to LL.

 

I don't want to just bash, but I'm a Mainlander, so I had to bash a little. This Grandfathering move is, I think, a great move. Even economically, although I'd go further and just change the pricing all together. You went this far, so just go all the way. That said, the grandfather is a very nice thank you to your dedicated users.

[AdelleBelle]

I want to chime in and say my 2 cents.

Not every sim owner is a landlord. I own a clothing business and as my ex landlord was treating me really bad, i decided to move out after one year and half of crap eaten on his land. My experience with the respective estate was so bad that had a big influence on my decision on making me purchase a new full region. This is my first month on my new home and i can say i finally breathe.

The Buy Down even arrived in a very bad moment for me economically speaking. More over, i live in europe and to the respective 295 USD tier, i had to pay the non indifferent 20% VAT that touched my funds really hard. I had to take a moment and ponder what is best for me at this point.

As everyone pointed the ups and downs, i do have my fears that this experience might not end as good as i do expect it to end. Altough before i took a final decision i went and asked help on a Live chat to the customer support. The first good (huge good) news for me was that they will not charge VAT for the 600 USD of tier, and of course the 195 USD of the new monthly price will have also the VAT adjusted accordingly. This means half price lowered down for me. I paid my last tier 370 USD there where most of the people would pay 295. With all the adjustments i will have to pay 230 USD, add there the 100 from the 600 paid with buy down and i still save every month 40 USD from only handing in in advance the 600 USD. Now, for many of you 40 $ might be nothing, but for me every penny matters. At the end of the 6 months i would have saved 240 USD for just handing in advance the respective buy down fee. Money saved are money saved, for me is well worth!

While on live chat i also asked details. My sim will stay the same. The server will not be changed, the only thing that changes is the tier sum i pay montly. I even asked about Sansar. I got assured that one will not have an influence on the other, Sansar will not kill down SL, either SL will get closed because of it as i was reading speculations. They are two different entities with totally different styles and life, if i got it well. Also there are no intentions as of yet from LL to announce a release date. Might still take years before Sansar will be launched. Until then i hope i made up my bank account enough to say that was well worth the investment.

My buy down ticket is in.

Cheers.

P. S. I wrote this post for those who are still in doubt, as i was before i decided to purchase. For days i was trying to figure out what to do and nobody was able to help me with a good advice. When i found this thread i thought i will get some good insights, but half of the discussion is OFF Topic. I hope my thoughts and experience might be of help for those who - like me - are in search of an advice from someone who actually did something regarding the subject.

 

[Medhue Simoni]

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AdelleBelle wrote:

 

While on live chat i also asked details. My sim will stay the same. The server will not be changed, the only thing that changes is the tier sum i pay montly. I even asked about Sansar. I got assured that one will not have an influence on the other, Sansar will not kill down SL, either SL will get closed because of it as i was reading speculations. They are two different entities with totally different styles and life, if i got it well. Also there are no intentions as of yet from LL to announce a release date. Might still take years before Sansar will be launched. Until then i hope i made up my bank account enough to say that was well worth the investment.

 

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There are some dates that LL has talked about for Sansar. Supposedly, developers will be let into an exclusive beta/alpha near the start of summer, with open beta/alpha starting at the end of the year. I have no inside knowledge tho. What I predict, again not knowing anything, is that Sansar will be very basic to begin with. Yes, Sansar will "launch" but it won't be mature enough compared to SL. It will take a few years before Sansar will be mature enough to compete directly with SL. Again, remember, this is all just my speculation, based on my 3D knowledge, and not based on anything said by LL.

[Pamela Galli]

Joy Yardley has a recap of Ebbe's latest info on her blog.https://joyardley.wordpress.com/2016/03/10/ebbe-speaks-at-vwbpe-mentions-sansar-and-controversial-banning/

[Deltango Vale]

Sansar reminds me of Blue Mars. I expect the same outcome.

[Dictatorshop]

I have to say I disagree that this is bad.  Yes it is a bit self serving for LL, it ties us in to our sims beyond the six month time horizon when sansar will go into beta.  Frankly, that doesn't bother me one bit.  I have a sim for business and one for a large long running club.  I have been pondering how on earth I would afford to have my stuff in both places.  

I have no intention of just releasing my sims the moment sansar opens because, personally, I feel that there will be a rush of people over there, but I KNOW intuitively that a goodly portion (maybe even a majority) will NOT be giving up their SL that fast.  Their inventories are here, their established friends.  They know their computer RUNS the current SL.  Sansar is probably going to work best on high end computers and a huge portion of SL residents do not have those high end grafics needed to do it justice.  

As for reducing tenant lease rates, start in six months when the buy down is paid for, nothing lost for you then.  They should understand.  If they up and leave you the moment sansar opens, well you still havent lost anything from the buy down.

Plus the *content* in Sansar is going to take a looooong time to ramp up.  Even if it opened its doors to us tomorrow, it would be months or even a year before its really useful and the bugs are shook loose. For me, this means I am going to be paying tier on my two SL sims for *at least* another year or longer.  USD$ 1200 saved per sim for that year... yeah, I'm good.  Chances are pretty even that I will just turning around and dropping that money into Sansar for two sims over there in whatever land arrangment they have come up with.  

But that's just my take on it.  I am really glad they did this.  And you know, I havent noticed the big land barons doing much to their prices.  They have always had lots of grandfathered sims, and that never seems to have affected the rates people (over) pay.  But if you want to give up your land for feeling that your tail is in a twist. That is up to you, of course.  Nothing says you have to buy down, it's not like they are making us do it.  Me, I couldn't get it done fast enough!