What's the proper protocol for reviewing one's treatment on a land?

[KiraPatrick Lexington]

 

I'm a long time SL resident.  But new to photography.  I've been looking for wonderful places to shoot pics at.  I do like pinup and burlesque photography.  Which... is NOT NUDE photography.  At least not in my book.  I've been a member of Gardens of Grace for a while and wanted to take pics there.  I know it's G rated and sometimes people don't like you walking around in a swimsuit or underwear even though you are not nude.  So... trying to be considerate I asked in the group.  I made sure I mentioned I had no intention of being naked.   I would post what I said but I can't because I was kicked by the SIM owner.    But... before that... becaues I had asked as nicely as I knew how I had this coversation with one of the SIM employees who messaged me directly.  

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I've deleted the chat log to avoid TOS violations.  But an employee of the sim had messaged me about my question.  She was a very nice person and we have a very pleasant conversation.    She said things like "As long as you are not nude I do not see the harm"   I replied that I appreciated her kindness and I would still even wait to talk to the owner before I took any kind of pic as I did not want even the slight possibility to offend someone.  

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Everything was great and wonderful so far.  No problems.  But look at the time stap.  Because JUST as Passion said Ari was a "lovely woman" I was immediately kicked, and Ari started calling me "disgusting" amongst other things.  

This is what Ari sent to me after she kicked me.  Notice how I tried to apologize.

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Again had to delete the chat log to avoid TOS violations.  But... at the point the Gardens of Grace owner had kicked and banned me... and THEN messaged me calling me filth, and disgusting.   The earlier person I had talked to that worked on the sim was shocked the owner treated me that way and offered her own home for my pics.  I think she was embarassed by the owner's behavior.   I felt very hurt and verbally abused.  I've been on SL for five years now and this is the first time I've ever been kicked or banned from a place.  

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Ari even quoted part of my original discussion in the group where I had said "If there's a question I might offend someone I can make sure I stick to more normal things"  things being clothes.   Its like she went WAY out of her way to take me out of context and try her best to make sure I knew I was the worst piece of human filth she had ever seen.    

I'm not going to sink to her level and insult her, and I truly feel sorry for her loss.  But if you enjoy this place do not try to interact with the staff.  She clearly needs professional help with an emotional trauma of some sort.  

-Kira

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

First: TOS forbits posting chat logs, and in particular if they have names attached.

Second: There is no protocol for review of what are interpersonal disputes.

Third: If it was 'G' rated land, any sexualized activity is forbidden. But if it was 'M' rated land, public nudity is allowed, unless the owners forbid it. The place you mention though is on 'G' land, and anything sensual, even if clothed - is a TOS violation there because the land rating is 'G' - even if in private. Technically if you stood on 'G' land and had an adult IM conversation with someone, it would be a TOS violation. The rules of 'G' land are ultra-strict (though if somebody reported that conversation, they would be in TOS violation for breaching privacy).

 

In this case though its all moot because the owner sets rules for their own land - I'm just pointing that out because what the person said in the chat log about 'M' land is wrong. But the person is spot on over 'G' land. And as annoying as her attitude may be, people go to 'G' land precisely so they can be RIGHT about having that attitude. On 'M' land I'd roll my eyes at her, on 'G' land I have to admit she's being tough for good reason.

 

You are basically out of luck. Find somewhere else to do your images, stick to 'M' rated land, or 'A' rated land.

 

Now I highly recommend you delete that chat log, and just paraphrase it without naming people / places...

[KiraPatrick Lexington]

I'm not sure I understand why posting chat logs is against TOS.  I do understand the names though.  I'll make the appropriate changes.  And no sexualed anything ever took place.   In fact... the "guardian" of the sim said my request was perfectly fine and I even said I would not do anything until I talked with the owner.  

I don't agree with verbal abuse, and think proof of verbal abuse shouldn't be against TOS but I'll follow the rules.  

At what point does SL take cyber bullying seriously?  And is it really okay for the TOS to protect the bullier over the bullied by silencing on record information.  

 

Anyway... I know I just need to buck up and take it I suppose.  

[Innula Zenovka]

Posting chat logs is against the ToS because LL says it is, quite simply.   

If you want to AR the person for harassment, give details of where and when it happened.   Then LL, if they think it worth investigating, can easily enough access the chat logs at the simulator level.

However, I'd be amazed if they did do anything about it, since they don't normally get  involved in what they see as resident vs resident disputes.    I'd simply mute the person and find somewhere else to take my pictures -- there's plenty of attractive venues in SL.

[Pussycat Catnap]

---

KiraPatrick Lexington wrote:

I'm not sure I understand why posting chat logs is against TOS.

At what point does SL take cyber bullying seriously?  And is it really okay for the TOS to protect the bullier over the bullied by silencing on record information.  

---

Personally I agree with you. But its their TOS, and not mine. We're stuck with it.

As for taking cyber-bullying seriously... very rarely do they. They have a weird hands off approach that is way out of step with how things generally work online.

Burlesque is sexual. It is even called out in the maturity policy as something specifically fitting to 'M' land because it is sexual but not too sexual. We can agree or not with that - but that one is even listed in their TOS.

There are basically only three things we know with concrete absolute certainty about the maturity policy:

1. Burlesque is "M"rated (the FAQ rephrases this as strip clubs. So whatever you or I think Burlesque means, to the Lindens it is a strip club).

2. Public nudity is allowed on M land.

3. You cannot advertize or publicly show adult content on M land.

 

Everything else is guesswork due to extremely vague wording:

https://community.secondlife.com/t5/English-Knowledge-Base/Maturity-ratings/ta-p/700119#General

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Adult_Content_FAQ#Is_simple_nudity_without_sex_Adult.3F

 

As to the rule on the Lindens not getting involved in disputes. This used to be a rule spelled out somewhere. Maybe it still is, but right now I am failing to find it. I was prepping a post for how it directly contradicts their rule against harrassment... but I can't find it, so I am not even able to check and see if the point I was going to make was even correct.

 

[KiraPatrick Lexington]

I think everyone is missing the point.  It's not about being allowed to take pics or not.  And... I could argue all day about Burlesque actually means... But I realize it means different things to different people.   

What I am upset about is I asked a question for clarification from that particular sim before acting.  And... on the left hand I was discussing with land employees who said they felt my request was completely okay...   

And on the right...  The owner kicked me, banned me, and then called me filth and disgusting.  In that order.   

I never at any time was nude, or even wanted to be...   So why that keeps getting brought up I don't know. 

I object to being verbally abused for asking a qestion.  

[Phil Deakins]

Ok. What happened about the land isn't relevant, because you accept all that. Booting and banning is entriely at the landowner's discretion, and LL just leaves us to it. You didn't like it but you're ok with it.

What might be worth pursuing is the level of verbal abuse that you received. If it really was bad, then you should AR it. Landowners don't get to abuse people in that way regardless of whose land they are on and, from what you said, you weren't even on that land at the time. So AR it. Something may come of it and something may not. Either way, you won't get to know because LL doesn't tell the complainant what the outcome is.

So AR it and forget it. That's all you can do.

ETA: Nice profile pic, btw

[KiraPatrick Lexington]

And this morning I've logged in and her friends have left me messages since I was asleep. 

I was just called a "sl*t".  A "b*tch". Saying that my ass was hanging out and that I just wanted people to "f*ck" me.  I I had to edit that a bit.    So... this is what I was wearing for the entirety of last night, not just at her land.  

Obviously my ass is hanging out and I'm dressed entirely to provacatively.  



 

 

[OzwellWayfarer]

LL cant and wont police things like this. Its never ncie to be called names, but all you can really do is ignore these people.

As for how you get treated on peoples land, you are totally at the mercy of whoever owns the sim. They can ban you for ANY reason they choose and it is their right to do so. They pay for the land after all. 

Maybe they dont want nude or semi-nudes, maybe they dont like people with red hair, or furries. Whatever. If they dont like it they are under no obligation to tollerate it. I know that can be frustrating but it is what it is.

The few times I have had a bad experience with sim owners, I just leave. No point arguing with them and who wants to support a sim run by an asshat? Not me.

[Phil Deakins]

If that's the level of verbal abuse, I'd just mute them and leave it at that. If it's worse, then I'd get the ARs in. But the best thing for YOU at this stage is to mute and forget. Some people enjoy doing it, and it's not all that difficult to get hung up about it, but that's not good for you. Mute and forget is your magic pill - unless they take it further, of course.

[Marianne Little]

Search for third party forums sl, and you will see the forum I use as #4 in the entry from Google.

There you can name and post chat logs.

I can't see it doing so much good... you will probably get some sympathy, but the sim owner and her friends will follow you there and it can be nasty. They would probably give you verbal abuse inworld and slander you in all other land groups they have.

So if you choose this patch, be sure to expect a lot. You type well here and a polite speak and manner will get you a long way over in the other forum. It will not change anything for you, but if you are banned from other sims, you have someplace to point more reasonable simowners to, to give them the correct background.

[Tari Landar]

I'll give you the same advice I give to my kids(not to belittle you, or the situation, in the least, I promise).

Your best defense against someone being verbally offensive..is to not be offended. That will annoy them, while proving how offended you are by them/their actions/their words, will only fuel their offensive nature.

As hard as it might seem, being the bigger person, so to speak, is a far better reaction than looking for justice you're not going to get. Even IF you AR them, you'll never know the outcome, and it's highly likely LL never will address it. They've just not got the time to play mommy/daddy and settle spats between the kids(and that's not to belittle you either, it's just the simple truth, even if it sucks).

[Innula Zenovka]

Since the landowner's friends have joined in, I'd certainly AR them for harassment but then, as others have suggested, simply mute them and forget about them.   They're looking to get a reaction from you.   They're idiots, though -- don't waste your time on them.

I really would advise against posting chat logs in another forum -- it simply escalates matters.    Furthermore, while the third party forum where I hang (which I think is the one Marianne means) would doubtless give you a fair hearing, people there do tend to get impatient with first-time posters who've come there simply to post a lengthy complaint, including chat logs, against a third party.    .

 

[Rhonda Huntress]

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KiraPatrick Lexington wrote:

And this morning I've logged in and her friends have left me messages since I was asleep. 

---

Oh, wonderful.  That was nice of them.  It is so much easier to mute all the sycophants en masse when they do that!

Nothing kills drama faster than not playing along.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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KiraPatrick Lexington wrote:

What I am upset about is I asked a question for clarification from that particular sim before acting.  And... on the left hand I was discussing with land employees who said they felt my request was completely okay...   

And on the right...  The owner kicked me, banned me, and then called me filth and disgusting.  In that order.  

---

Oh I think we get all of that. Its just that the "Harrassment" rule of the SL TOS is interpreted extremely narrowly. I'm not sure I can think of an example of anything the lindens actually consider to qualify for it.

People can get amazingly rude, and its just considered "oh well" by the lindens.

The lindens tha enforce on this forum though take a more normal approach, and if you see a flame war here, it tends to get stamped down. But inworld... they take a way too hands off aproach.

 

Personally I agree that the land-owner's attitude was way out of line. But if it only happened that one time I might also error on the side of caution before 'penalizing' her for harrassment if it was me enforcing policy. Especially since she was going after you over an action that if she had knowingly allowed it to happen, might have cost her her account and her land.

- Consider that the stakes were very high for her, once she was aware. If you let people violate the maturity policy on your land knowingly... you can get yourself on the wrong side of a perma-ban.

 

The whole thing about definitions of words though - I was trying to make the point that it doesn't matter what we think it means, if the lindens have listed out what they think it means. And Burlesque happens to be one of the only words in existence that the TOS creates a definition for... You basically had the bad luck to manage to find the only mine in the entire ocean, and run your ship through it...

 

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Innula Zenovka wrote:

Since the landowner's friends have joined in, I'd certainly

AR them for harassmen

t but then, as others have suggested, simply mute them and forget about them.   They're looking to get a reaction from you.   They're idiots, though -- don't waste your time on them.

---

Yes. Now that they are continuing it beyond that initial exchange - now you have harrassment.

And the third party forums tend to just be places where the members look for ways to trap people into a mess of trolling insults by misrepresenting words used in moments of emotion to make them look bad. You'd be nothing but entertainment for them.

 

[Darrius Gothly]

"Sticks and stone ..."

I agree with the majority here in suggesting you mute and move on. It's been my experience that people with intense overdone reactions to polite requests are either devoid of their own personal power and self-respect, or just doing it because they enjoy making others feel belittled. (Maybe those are the same thing?)

In any case, there really is no recompense to be found through Official Channels. What you encounterred is a Sim Owner that exercised no self-control and clearly has no respect for others. Time will be your biggest ally here as those that stand with her now will eventually fall under her sharp tongue .. and then abandon her too.

[CheriColette]

I like that Darrius. Karma. The sim owner will be the sorry one in the end. You on the other hand Kira, have learnt a valuable lesson....in letting go. Cause thats the only thing YOU can do. Every time you mention the incident, make a comment here or in sl, you are doing their work for them. It will only get worse for you. Best you stop now and shrug it off. Move on and forget tying to get sympathy, justice or revenge. We of course sympathise, you were treated badly but nothing can be done about that. 

[Dillon Levenque]

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KiraPatrick Lexington wrote:

 

At what point does SL take

cyber bullying

seriously?

---

I'm sorry but it just really bothers me when people call out 'cyber bullying' anytime they meet with an argument online. What happened to you is NOT cyber-bullying. There really is such a thing and it's a seriously sick problem. Young women—girls, really—have committed suicide because of cyber-bullying. Not quit playing an online game, but quit life. Jumped off water towers. Cyber bullying is about bullying people IN REAL LIFE ABOUT REAL LIFE THINGS on the internet.

A high school girl makes bad choices at a party, finds herself intoxicated (no doubt with a whole lot of help from males) and winds up being raped while unconcious or semiconcious. A very bad thing, even if all the bad things stopped right there. But the cyber bullying starts after, when the sick little snots who staged the scene (or their hangers on) film it on their cell phones and put it on the Internet. She gets clips from it on her Facebook page. And not just from strangers. From people she goes to school with, sees every day. Everyone in school has seen the film, as far as she knows, to say nothing of everyone in the world. The latter people can only flood her social network outlets with vile comments. The former can shame her in person. Every single day.

There are other forms cyber bullying can take but all of them have one thing in common: they are not confined to cyberspace. They involve things that happen in REAL LIFE. The internet is just the medium, the arguments take place in people's actual lives.

It sounds as if you ran across some, for lack of a better word, twits. You have been here long enough to know that SL is an ungoverned collection of personalities. You wanted to take what you thought were tasteful and historically relevant pictures at a sim you found attractive. The pictures involved having the model being in various states of undress. Someone in a position of authority at that sim flew off the handle, all in a lather because some exposed skin might shock some blue-nosed prude. They said nasty things to you. Other than trying to contact the sim owner to see if you could get the blue-nose's objection over-ridden, everything you did after that was wrong. The correct response is to pack up the props, shut down the lights, and walk away muttering something that ends with ".....and the horse you rode in on."

If something so vile was said that you feel it goes beyond the usual screamed obscenities, snapshot it, save the text, and AR. If LL agrees with you, something might happen to your abuser. But don't challenge. Don't go back and try again. They made their point. It's their place. They appear to be idiots, but SL allows localized idiocy and even non-idiots will fully support the philosophy behind that. Move on.

[CheriColette]

I agree with you Dillon, on the definition of Cyber Bully. I know of one girl who was well known TV personality and past top model who took her life because of cyber bulling. 

[Darrius Gothly]

In a previous profession we had a term for people (mostly males) that would add some alcohol to their system then get very macho and aggressive: Beer Muscles.

When one is attacked verbally, called names and belittled but strictly on the Internet .. that needs a term too. I agree it isn't Cyber Bullying. But it is bullying and it does happen in Cyberspace.

So what do we call it? Cyber Muscles? Carried out by Internuts?

We need a new term for it. It does happen and it can lead to some unfortunate and very irreparable actions in real life.

[VanillaSunsets]

Being treated rude and called nasty names is always a shock. But it happens... Like IRL not everybody is a nice person. And you can't make them behave to your own standards. Neither can LL.

Fact is that it is their land, they pay and they set the rules. As confusing or inconsistent as those may be.

Maybe you should look at it this way.... ppl that own land see this as their home, their garden. And they allow you to visit it, no fee charged. In return they expect you to behave according to their rules. Paying for land gives the owner about the same feeling as it were a RL house. That will make them behave the same as a RL home owner. Now ask yourself what you yourself would tolerate in your RL home that you pay for. This may give you a small insight as to why some land owners behave like they do. It isn't nice, but it does explain the behavior. Try to see it their way just to give it some perspective. Then mute them and forget about it fast ;-)

I don't approve how you have been treated and I am sure Karma will deal with this rudeness. 

 

[KiraPatrick Lexington]

I would like to comment once more on "Cyber Bullying" because I'm very sensitive on the issue to.   My sister is a juvenile court judge in Georgia so I've heard some very sad stories and outtcomes.  

My gol here isn't to be allowed back in, or do what I want.   And it's true.  They can run their land however they want.  Just like a restaurant owner can treat their customers however they want.  But I'm well within my rights to post my reviews and experiences on yelp, or other online forums to warn others.   

Now back to the Cyber Bullying.   I was wondering aloud because I can quickly see a scenarior like this getting out of hand (and have heard many stories of other friends who were MOST definitely bullied.)  I would like to see a mechanism in place where people can speak out about mistreatment from others on all scales.  You can leave reviews for clothes on Marketplace why not lands where the "public" are invited to come hang out and have a good time.     Like in my situation it did escalate.  I recently had major surgery on my right elbow so my typing isn't its best.   It's going to be a long while before I can lift my hairbrush with that arm and I've got lots of PT ahead.  Even though I had muted the owner... someone else had randomly messaged me and mocked my ability to type without making mistakes.  So... making fun of my disability.  It certainly is riding the edge of what "Cyber Bullying" can mean.     I'm over it now.  I just wanted to raise public awareness of this land owner and her cronies.  And that's what I did.   And... there needs to be a "Yelp" like system for places in SL.    Just sayin... 

[Phil Deakins]

If it continues, then it might well come under the heading of bullying or harrassment. But just a very short spell of it doesn't fit that description, to my way of thinking. It's more akin to the heading of tantrum, even though she got one or two others to join in.

What we can't do with here is a facility where we can relate negative things about other people, however true they are, simply because those who are prone to doing the negative things will absolutely use it to post lies about other people, such as the one who has been wronged - like yourself. Readers have no way of knowing who is telling the truth. That's why what you want isn't allowed here. An example:- we have no way of knowing that you didn't do something to deserve the outburst. We can only take your word for it. But if the sim owner came and posted things that showed you deserved the outburst, whether truth or lies, we still have no way of knowing which of you is being honest, so what's the point of posting who did it in the first place? Also there are people who would hit back at other people by posting lies about them, even if the other people hadn't actually wronged them at all.

I've had that in the past in another forum. The guy even brought a witness (his girlfriend) who swore she saw me do it. They were both bare-faced liars, but I was just one person and they were two. Who would people believe? It's so very easy to abuse the facility to write what you want about someone else. So it's not allowed here.

[Madelaine McMasters]

---

KiraPatrick Lexington wrote:

And... there needs to be a "Yelp" like system for places in SL.    Just sayin... 

---

If you've been following the news, Yelp has come under lots of fire for its handling of fake reviews. Shareholders filed a class action lawsuit (which was rejected by the courts) when Yelp's stock price collapsed (current price ~$20)  from what they claimed was an inflated value (~$100) based on false statements by Yelp regarding the trustworthiness of their reviews, which were gamed for hire. Does anyone trust Yelp reviews now?

What prevents disgruntled SL customers or visitors from trashing creators or venues because they're in a bad mood? What recourse would the victims have? The entirety of Linden Lab is less than 200 people. How many of those would have to be pulled off productive work to police a Yelp like review system? I'm not a markeplace merchant, but there have been numerous complaints in the forums of unfair reviews there. LL may already be over its head in dealing with this issue on a limited scope.

Although I sympathize with your physical problems (I've had nerve issues from my hands to my shoulders since I was hit by a car when I was 15), I don't think the harassment you've received in SL can classified as cyber-bullying. You can escape it by using SL's mute/block/derender tools, by teleporting away, or by logging out. The harassers do not know your RL identity, so it's your anonymous SL presentation that's being bullied. I understand that you have (as I do) an emotional investment in that presentation, but that investment should not be compared to the value of your RL self. If one wants to argue an equivalence, they're on the path to accepting that SL can be a very dangerous tool in the hands of people not equipped to handle it.

Golly, I can't wait for that discussion!

;-).

[Dresden]

Obviously, something about your behavior sent the owner off on a tangent.  It could be as simple as her being offended that, instead of asking her about the appropriateness of your photo shoot in private, you talked about it in her group and with her employees, thereby causing her to have to deal with other people's feelings about the matter when it was none of there business from the start.

Without knowing what set her off, I couldn't say whether her reaction was warranted or not.  Of course, it sounds overblown when described from your perspective, but I have a feeling that if the owner was here to tell her side of the story, you probably wouldn't come off as sympathetic a victim as you make yourself out to be.  Either way, you do yourself no favors by rolling out this misplaced, hyperbolic accusation of cyberbullying.

...Dres