Theresa Tennyson Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 ChinRey wrote: Oh well, apparently you genuinely don't understand so here's an example. Let's say you want to create an alt and you want to do it properly, according to TOS and all that. So you look for Linden Lab's Official Alt Policy. It's not easy to find but it does exist and with a little bit of Googling you should be able to get there. This is what you find: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alt_account_policies That page has one of my favorite LL quotes btw: "If you have legitimate reasons for creating multiple accounts but have been unable to do so: If you have a basic account, go to Help Island and talk to someone there."Do you need more examples or is that enough? Edit: Theresa Tennyson wrote: Of course - because nobody ever ever clicks the "Shop" button at the top of the viewer or the "Destination Guide" button, do they? Yes, I did mention that although Social Island is based on very good principles, it has a few flaws. That is one of them. Did I ever say the current Linden Lab documentation was good? However, that has nothing to do with my point, which is much of the knowledge needed in Second LIfe is out of Linden Labs' control. People want to buy shoes. In Second Life right now most women's shoes are built for proprietary feet and are useless without them. Should Linden Lab tell new people this? If so, how much information should they tell them? Should they tell them where to go to get the feet? Which stores? Wouldn't Linden Lab naming stores interfere with the "free market?" And who at the Lab should follow shoe fashion to make sure the information is up to date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Qie Niangao wrote: LL has full control over the content at Welcome Island and Social Island. I realize it was only a tangent that Pamela and I were exploring about Sansar, but it's worth noting that LL is very intent on giving customers direct, unmediated access to Sansar experiences from that customer's website, where any new user welcoming or training would be the responsibility of the experience owner. Even in SL, though, something is afoot with community gateways (I'll be damned if I can figure out what, but something), which, too, would bypass the Linden-supplied onboarding process. So that's a challenge: all these skilled educators can offer their services to the community gateway developers. Not a Lab problem anymore. From what I have seen, Firestorm team has designed a well thought out gateway. These are people who spend a lot of time dealing not just with their product but SL in general, know what is going to trip people up, and what the most immediate needs are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 ChinRey wrote: Pamela Galli wrote: I have never seen much evidence that LL has ever hired 1) a skilled, experienced educator who was 2) very familiar with some aspects of SL. There are some exceptions but not many. I don't know if Torley has any experience or formal qualifications as an educator but if not, he sure has some serious natural talent for it. Unfortunately he's been "assigned to other tasks" now. Task analysis is just as important to a programmer as it is to an educator - that's the one thing we have in common with them - and programmers who understand that and also happen to be good communicators, can be excellent educators. Two members of the original LL crew, Cory and Andrew, are good examples of that. They must have had some professional help when they built the new welcome system. It does have some very obvious flaws but the fundamental principles are very good pedagogy indeed and the flaws may well be explained by lack of time and/or conflicting requirements from the Lindens. Much of the content there was made by a very skilled builder I've never heard of anywhere else and I suspect that would be the teacher LL hired in to teach them how to teach. Good to know they are doing First Day stuff well. As you say, the information is no doubt all out there, and Google is our friend, but it is not well organized enough to be a good central first stop source. Torrey videos are indeed the best educational thing LL has produced, and not just for newcomers. Would be nice to have ithem front and center on login. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Theresa Tennyson wrote: Did I ever say the current Linden Lab documentation was good? Yes you were under suspicion of being a secret agent of LL Glad we got that misunderstanding sorted out. Theresa Tennyson wrote: People want to buy shoes. In Second Life right now most women's shoes are built for proprietary feet and are useless without them. Should Linden Lab tell new people this? If so, how much information should they tell them? Should they tell them where to go to get the feet? Which stores? Wouldn't Linden Lab naming stores interfere with the "free market?" And who at the Lab should follow shoe fashion to make sure the information is up to date? You know, I've only been here for less than three years and my view on Second Life is already so outdated I actually think of my avatar as my portal to a wonderful virtual world rather than the virtual world as a backdrop to my Barbie Doll. The idea that people would be so extremely fixated on the appearance of that little figure you see far behind and in front of your point of view right from the start simply never occurred to me. Your post was off well off topic from what me and Pamela were talking about but we're hardly on topic anyway and your point is of course just as important. This is how it goes then: You log on to Second Life for the first time ever and are immediately greeted by: Welcome to Second Life! Buy, Buy, BUY!Of course, anybody in the PR business will tell you that marketing needs to be a lllllittle bit more subtle than that to be really effective but you go for it anyway. You click on the "Buy, Buy, BUY!" button, and are taken to a website with lots of pretty pictures. You figure out you have to log on again there and spot an especially pretty picture of a pair of shoes. (We can skip the description about how to figure out how to get Lindens here since you can actually pay with RL money on MP.) You pay with your credit card (presumably you have one that is accepted by LL) and get a message that you item has been delivered to the Received Items folder of your inventory. After a bit of trial and error you discover that a suitcase is a good icon for the inventory folder and once you've found that, it doesn't take you long to spot the Received Items folder. Then you... No, this is getting out of hand, let's do it as a point list instead: Wear what you found in Received Items Figure out why your avatar suddenly has a box attached to her hand and how to get rid of it Figure out how to open the box and move content into inventory Find out how to wear items from your inventory Discover that there is no way to make the shoes fit Go back to MP to discover there is no way there to contact neither LL nor the seller Figure out how to contact the seller inworld Wait a week for reply Read the rather rude reply telling you that you need a special brand of feet to wear the shoes, that the MP listing clearly stated that and that it's nobody's fault but yours. Try to find a way to contact LL to complain Eventually decide to look for some information how to deal with such issues rather than trying to figure it out yourself. For once you're in luck, that info is easily found in the most obvious location (Inventory->Library->Notecards->Community Standards 11.1.05) Right at the bottom of the long text it says: "Buyer Beware Linden Lab does not exercise editorial control over the content of Second Life, and will make no specific efforts to review the textures, objects, sounds or other content created within Second Life. At first glance, some people may think this is a really nice introduction to Second Life, full of exciting challenges and everything. It does have a few flaws though. Can anybody spot them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph Arnott Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 As the OP was about crashing you can hardly claim others are off topic can you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 steph Arnott wrote: As the OP was about crashing you can hardly claim others are off topic can you. ChinRey wrote: Your post was off well off topic from what me and Pamela were talking about but we're hardly on topic anyway and your point is of course just as important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph Arnott Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 And you are still off topic.This is the op More crashes then usual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 ChinRey wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: Did I ever say the current Linden Lab documentation was good? Yes you were under suspicion of being a secret agent of LL Glad we got that misunderstanding sorted out. Theresa Tennyson wrote: People want to buy shoes. In Second Life right now most women's shoes are built for proprietary feet and are useless without them. Should Linden Lab tell new people this? If so, how much information should they tell them? Should they tell them where to go to get the feet? Which stores? Wouldn't Linden Lab naming stores interfere with the "free market?" And who at the Lab should follow shoe fashion to make sure the information is up to date? You know, I've only been here for less than three years and my view on Second Life is already so outdated I actually think of my avatar as my portal to a wonderful virtual world rather than the virtual world as a backdrop to my Barbie Doll. The idea that people would be so extremely fixated on the appearance of that little figure you see far behind and in front of your point of view right from the start simply never occurred to me. Live and learn. I bought a shape and skin the first couple of days I was on Second LIfe and most of my first purchases were clothing. My first exposure to the fetid hot mess of a building interface Second Life uses was adjusting prim clothing attachments - I still probably have a pair of pants that have prim cuffs that follow me around like little black dogs because I couldn't get them adjusted properly. And I started over two years before you did. The largest segment of the Second Life retail economy? Female hair. Even though Stiletto Moody was probably lying about the "million dollars" thing, she sold a heck of a lot of ridiculously expensive sculpted shoes in her time, which was before both of ours. Now consider that almost all of the complicated aspects of Second Life avatar appearance are courtesy of Second LIfe users themselves. Attachable hair and shoes, custom skins - you might not realize that the texture slots all current skins use were originally only intended for "tattoos" - etc. Even fitted mesh was originally a resident's idea, not to mention the service that became the Marketplace itself. Linden Lab probably wishes everything was a lot easier themselves but there's little they can do about it without breaking what the users did on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph Arnott Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Seem to remember that Chung lady started the x box and LL bought it and turned it into the MP, Could be wrong. ADDED. xstreet, well something like that, not x box, that a console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 steph Arnott wrote: And you are still off topic.This is the op More crashes then usual Yes, and the answer to that is that there hasn't been a general increase in crashes recently and most crashes are caused by users doing something wrong. But that again brings up the question, how are the users supposed to know what is right and what is wrong? Imagine you've never ever seen or heard of a car before. Somebody gives you one, starts the engine for you and tell you it's so easy, you just turn that round thing to steer left or right and push that squarish thing with your feet to go faster. Who's fault is it when you crash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph Arnott Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 What you want LL to do? Hold theiir hands and speak to them like a nanny? SL if anything is a million times bettter than other platforms, some are almost impossible to figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 ChinRey wrote: steph Arnott wrote: And you are still off topic.This is the op More crashes then usual Yes, and the answer to that is that there hasn't been a general increase in crashes recently and most crashes are caused by users doing something wrong. But that again brings up the question, how are the users supposed to know what is right and what is wrong? Imagine you've never ever seen or heard of a car before. Somebody gives you one, starts the engine for you and tell you it's so easy, you just turn that round thing to steer left or right and push that squarish thing with your feet to go faster. Who's fault is it when you crash? Interesting analogy, because I have a book that has an essay where that actually happened! In the April 1905 edition of Motor magazine there's an essay by a gentleman who bought a car - a pretty expensive one, from the description - by ordering one. Like most people of the time he had no idea of how to drive it. His friends convinced him to take them on a 40 mile round trip the first full day he owned it because it would be "a good way to learn." He read the quite comprehensive-sounding owner's manual that night and set off the next morning. As he was leaving the carriage house he went to turn onto the street and turned the steering wheel in the wrong direction because he had somehow gotten it into his head that it worked like the wheel on a ship, which at the time was rigged the opposite way a car steering wheel works. He figured out what happened pretty quickly though and got straightened out after driving around the block though. After a very eventful day which almost ended up with the car and party plunging off a cliff into the rapids of the Niagara River, he returned home and wrote a fascinating rundown which he sent to an early magazine which he didn't blame the car manufacturer at all for any of the events. (He didn't blame his friends either, but they learned their own lessons by going on the trip with him.) (Reprinted in The American Automobile by Ralph Stein, Random House, 1971) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli May Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 On his first driving lesson, a friend of mine tried to keep turning the steering wheel on the first corner for the entire duration of the corner. He'd assumed that to make the car go left, you had to keep turning the wheel left (i.e. turn it more and more) then stop turning it when you want to straighten up. The instructor had to grab the wheel and stop the car. The lesson: never assume what a student knows about a subject before you try to teach it (or if you must make assumptions, test them in a safe environment). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Hmmm. I was actually expecting somebody to mention the old story about the lady who sued a microvawe oven manufacturer - and allegedly won the case - because they didn't mention in the manual that you shouldn't use it to dry off your dog after taking it for a walk in the rain. I'm going to hook my final post in this thread onto one of my previous ones: ChinRey wrote: steph Arnott wrote: A lot blame LL, truth is 99% of it is their end. I'm not sure if you mean 99% is on LL or on the lot who blames LL but i a way you're right in either case. That's part of the answer: Making sure the user is able to use a product or a service the best possible way is a shared responsibility between user and provider. But it's only part of the answer because: Misinformation, like the alt policy example I mentioned, is always the provider's responsibility. Imagine if the 1905 car Theresa mentioned had come with a manual that said: "To turn right, rotate steering wheel towards the left". Would the driver still have any responsibility for the inevitable crash? When it comes to Second Life, it's also the matter of how important the service is to the customer. Second Life users have three options. They can: Spend the time needed to figure out how to make the most out of Second Life Decide it's too much effort and use it anyway, causing unnecessary problems both for themselves and - quite often - for other users. Decide it's way too cumbersome and just leave. I'm sure we all agree that we want everybody to go for option 1 but let's face it, to most people it isn't worth the effort. There are people who need Second Life as a breathing space to get away from a real life too hard to handle. There is a hard core of enthusiasts who are willing to do just about anything to make the most out of the hours they spend in Second Life. And there are even people who enjoy the challenge of figuring it out. But there aren't nearly enough of those to fill up even a fraction of SL's current capacity. To most users and potential users Second Life is just an innocent game or "game" they'll be happy to spend a little time on every now and then. But if they are required to spend lots of time and effort just learning how to play it, they're simply not interested anymore so they go for option 2 or 3. That is a hard, cold fact and there's nothing anybody can do about it. It simply doesn't matter what is right or wrong or reasonable or how things should have been or who's fault it is. One of the best investments - perhaps the best investment - Linden Lab could make in terms of sheer ROI, was to hire an experienced professional educator for a few months to clean up the documentation. That would save them a lot of money in maintenance and wasted computing power and bandwidth and also significantly improve the retention rate, And finally: Theresa Tennyson wrote The difficulty with having Linden Lab do that is they didn't build the vast majority of the things a new person will find in Second Life I may be taking that comment out of context, Theresa, but that's only because you had not just one but two very important points there. Content creators are users too and everything posted in this thread applies just as much to them as to everybody else in SL. Content creators are especially important here because what they do affects everybody. Even minor improvements in the general awareness level of that group would have a significant impact on the quality of Second Life as a whole. There are lots of volunteers who do great job teaching and running various building schools and help group and there are even experienced content creators who take the time to do house calls to help individual learners figure out how to build. It helps a lot but there are limits to what they can do without more substantial, active and - above all - visible support from Linden Lab. At the first Lab Chat Ebbe was asked how content creators and Linden Lab could work together to improve the overall quality of Second Life. He didn't understand the question so he never answered. That's all from me on this topic off-topic. Have a wonderful Second Life, everybody and see you all in another thread! Edit (just so I can pretend I didn't post yet another post here Pamela Galli wrote: Good to know they are doing First Day stuff well You haven't seen it unless you have created a new alt the last year or two of course but I have (since I needed a crash test dummy) and I can assure you it's quite good. You can't even compare it to earlier welcome systems really, it's in a completely different league. Still, there is room for improvements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christin73 Posted February 20, 2016 Author Share Posted February 20, 2016 After clearing cach on sl viewer and firestorm and even did a disk cleanup and deleted cookies. It helped briefly but still having lot of lag. Almost to the point of not being able to move or do much of anything. Somone on here may be right it may be my end. Just trying to eliminate as many issues as possible to come to a conclussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph Arnott Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 The ussual cause is your braod band. WiFi strangles download or the provider throttles it their end. Try a direct connection and see if it improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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