Christin73 Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Is it me or is sl viewer crashing more then usual. Seems like it has crashed alot over this past week. Anyone else expieriencing high crash rate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 I did a couple of weeks ago, or maybe less, but it only lasted for a day or so. While it was happening, i couldn't stay logged in on the LL viewer while, at the same time, my other av didn't crash at all on the Singularity viewer. Both are always logged in together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radium Soup Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Christin73 wrote: Is it me or is sl viewer crashing more then usual. Seems like it has crashed alot over this past week. Anyone else expieriencing high crash rate? The places you visit and the people in attendance can be a major factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph Arnott Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Have crashed once in a year and that was due to AVG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arton Rotaru Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 I crashed a lot with the start of the Chromium Embedded Framework (4.0+) viewers. It has gotten better though with the Maintenance RC viewer. But this has other bugs still. Currently I'm on a test viewer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradford Mint Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Make your mind up! Is it crashing or not? What you've said is that it crashed a lot and then it behaved normally. I hate to be picky but I suspect the word you actually wanted was "than" not "then"? "Than" relates to comparisons, "then" relates to time. It's not just a typo, using the wrong one does completely change the context of the sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph Arnott Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Regardless of an error the statement was easy to understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Yes it was, but the misspelling was very noticeable, and I wish that I'd thought of Bradford's reply. That particular misspelling is common and, to my mind, says something about those who do it. I won't say what is says though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph Arnott Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Have no idea, maybe typing fast, was watching a film, English not first language,half asleep, drunk, deliberate, IQ of 50, IQ of 150, etc, etc, IDK.Have better things to worry about. Not enough evidence to make any evaluation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Bradford Mint wrote: What you've said is that it crashed a lot and then it behaved normally. Maybe crashing a lot is normal behavior? Seriously, I use the SL Viewer (some release candidate, don't ask me which), UKanDo, Firestorm and Singularity. Firestorm crashed once a few months ago but apart from that it's been perfectly stable. I can't even remember last time any of the others crashed. But what do you mean by crashes? Is the viewer freezing up or quitting for no reason or are you takling about the "You have been disconnected" message? The last one is not a viewer related problem at all. It's all abut the connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph Arnott Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 A lot blame LL, truth is 99% of it is their end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 steph Arnott wrote: A lot blame LL, truth is 99% of it is their end. I'm not sure if you mean 99% is on LL or on the lot who blames LL but i a way you're right in either case. Many technical problems are caused by Linden Lab neglecting basic maintenance for so long and being able to address even rather critical bugs in a timely matter. Most problems however are caused by user ignorance. We don't know how to operate the viewer properly, we overload the system and we have unrealistic expectation about what is actually possible to achieve in an open virtual reality. But that raises the question, why are users so ignorant and that brings us back to Linden Lab. Linden Lab is still hyping Second Life a bit too much, not as much as they used to but enough to give people an unrealistic impression of the quality of the experience they can get here. The viewer interface (any viewer, not just the official one) is unnecessarily complicated and messy, with hard to understand function names, relatively unimportant function featured and important ones hidden away etc.,etc. Even experienced users can get lost and for casual users and newcomers it can be a daunting - and completely unnecessary - challenge. (I still think the ctrl-alt-G shortcut is important here. Yes, in itself it's a trivial issue but the fact that Linden Lab thinks that particular feature is important enough to warrant a keyboard shortcut speaks volume about their attitude towards user friendliness.) Documentation, the user manual, is a mess, outdated, incomplete, scattered around, hard to find, so verbose you fall asleep reading before you get halfway, full of hard-to-understand tech talk and often so clumsily written it's hard to decipher. The cause of most of the problems we face is located between a chair and a keyboard and the user does have a responsibility to know how to operate a service or a product properly. But the service/product provider also has a responsibility to provide clear, complete and adequate instructions how to and there's no denying that Linden Lab has failed miserably there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph Arnott Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Going by LL minimum system specs it amazing most can even move. The offical veiwer GUI appears to have been designed to be as irritating as possible. Some people use low broadband packages and Walmart laptops and complain it LL. But as you said LL really have just sat back and not given a hoot and LL do not appear to have any customer skills, what so ever.Do not think they even care any more. Have no idea why some come to SL with only a text app, can not work that one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 steph Arnott wrote: Have no idea why some come to SL with only a text app, can not work that one out. Communication with friends. I've never done it but it's easy to realise that communciation with friends is the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph Arnott Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I define this too one, who just whined people were defreinding him and that they were be bad to him. When i spoke to them they simply said whats the point, we just SL friends and he never spawned in SL.I did the same as well, becouse felt like i was chasing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 ChinRey wrote: steph Arnott wrote: A lot blame LL, truth is 99% of it is their end. I'm not sure if you mean 99% is on LL or on the lot who blames LL but i a way you're right in either case. Many technical problems are caused by Linden Lab neglecting basic maintenance for so long and being able to address even rather critical bugs in a timely matter. Most problems however are caused by user ignorance. We don't know how to operate the viewer properly, we overload the system and we have unrealistic expectation about what is actually possible to achieve in an open virtual reality. But that raises the question, why are users so ignorant and that brings us back to Linden Lab. Linden Lab is still hyping Second Life a bit too much, not as much as they used to but enough to give people an unrealistic impression of the quality of the experience they can get here. The viewer interface (any viewer, not just the official one) is unnecessarily complicated and messy, with hard to understand function names, relatively unimportant function featured and important ones hidden away etc.,etc. Even experienced users can get lost and for casual users and newcomers it can be a daunting - and completely unnecessary - challenge. (I still think the ctrl-alt-G shortcut is important here. Yes, in itself it's a trivial issue but the fact that Linden Lab thinks that particular feature is important enough to warrant a keyboard shortcut speaks volume about their attitude towards user friendliness.) Documentation, the user manual, is a mess, outdated, incomplete, scattered around, hard to find, so verbose you fall asleep reading before you get halfway, full of hard-to-understand tech talk and often so clumsily written it's hard to decipher. The cause of most of the problems we face is located between a chair and a keyboard and the user does have a responsibility to know how to operate a service or a product properly. But the service/product provider also has a responsibility to provide clear, complete and adequate instructions how to and there's no denying that Linden Lab has failed miserably there. Depending on exactly what someone wants to do in SL will impact how much that they need to learn. But I agree, educating users has always been a major weak point for LL. They've passed the bulk of that job off on us (more experienced) users. And so you wind up with a mish mash of both good and bad information. And sorting it out can be a major headache at times. A good example topic would be "script lag." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 ChinRey wrote: steph Arnott wrote: A lot blame LL, truth is 99% of it is their end. I'm not sure if you mean 99% is on LL or on the lot who blames LL but i a way you're right in either case. Many technical problems are caused by Linden Lab neglecting basic maintenance for so long and being able to address even rather critical bugs in a timely matter. Most problems however are caused by user ignorance. We don't know how to operate the viewer properly, we overload the system and we have unrealistic expectation about what is actually possible to achieve in an open virtual reality. But that raises the question, why are users so ignorant and that brings us back to Linden Lab. Linden Lab is still hyping Second Life a bit too much, not as much as they used to but enough to give people an unrealistic impression of the quality of the experience they can get here. The viewer interface (any viewer, not just the official one) is unnecessarily complicated and messy, with hard to understand function names, relatively unimportant function featured and important ones hidden away etc.,etc. Even experienced users can get lost and for casual users and newcomers it can be a daunting - and completely unnecessary - challenge. (I still think the ctrl-alt-G shortcut is important here. Yes, in itself it's a trivial issue but the fact that Linden Lab thinks that particular feature is important enough to warrant a keyboard shortcut speaks volume about their attitude towards user friendliness.) Documentation, the user manual, is a mess, outdated, incomplete, scattered around, hard to find, so verbose you fall asleep reading before you get halfway, full of hard-to-understand tech talk and often so clumsily written it's hard to decipher. The cause of most of the problems we face is located between a chair and a keyboard and the user does have a responsibility to know how to operate a service or a product properly. But the service/product provider also has a responsibility to provide clear, complete and adequate instructions how to and there's no denying that Linden Lab has failed miserably there. Well said. As a former teacher, a huge part of my job was task analysis, which enabled me to design curriculum which not only broke tasks down into baby steps but anticipated derails and obstacles. I have never seen much evidence that LL has ever hired 1) a skilled, experienced educator who was 2) very familiar with some aspects of SL. Charlar promised mesh documentation, but since he left, I have not heard anything further. New resident experience has never been well designed, as far as I am aware, except for once log ago when they could log into a web based SL as a guest, and experience it as a sort of tutorial. I spend a great deal of time now educating my customers about some pretty basic stuff, mostly in response to problems they are having, but also providing notecards and web pages. I wonder if LL plans for merchants in Sansar to do the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Pamela Galli wrote: I wonder if LL plans for merchants in Sansar to do the same? I think they're not only planning on that, but consider it a virtue: give these mythic "experience creators" a free hand in defining the virtual world for their customers. That's not an unreasonable idea, really, but I've made no secret that I think the Sansar business is likely to be very disappointing for Linden Lab. The market they seem to be targeting will be overserved in all the VR hype. And worse: Amazon's Lumberyard looks mighty similar. Good luck competing with Jeff Bezos. Is it just a coincidence that SL is no longer welcome on Twitch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Pamela Galli wrote: I have never seen much evidence that LL has ever hired 1) a skilled, experienced educator who was 2) very familiar with some aspects of SL. There are some exceptions but not many. I don't know if Torley has any experience or formal qualifications as an educator but if not, he sure has some serious natural talent for it. Unfortunately he's been "assigned to other tasks" now. Task analysis is just as important to a programmer as it is to an educator - that's the one thing we have in common with them - and programmers who understand that and also happen to be good communicators, can be excellent educators. Two members of the original LL crew, Cory and Andrew, are good examples of that. They must have had some professional help when they built the new welcome system. It does have some very obvious flaws but the fundamental principles are very good pedagogy indeed and the flaws may well be explained by lack of time and/or conflicting requirements from the Lindens. Much of the content there was made by a very skilled builder I've never heard of anywhere else and I suspect that would be the teacher LL hired in to teach them how to teach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 ChinRey wrote: steph Arnott wrote: A lot blame LL, truth is 99% of it is their end. I'm not sure if you mean 99% is on LL or on the lot who blames LL but i a way you're right in either case. Many technical problems are caused by Linden Lab neglecting basic maintenance for so long and being able to address even rather critical bugs in a timely matter. Most problems however are caused by user ignorance. We don't know how to operate the viewer properly, we overload the system and we have unrealistic expectation about what is actually possible to achieve in an open virtual reality. But that raises the question, why are users so ignorant and that brings us back to Linden Lab. Linden Lab is still hyping Second Life a bit too much, not as much as they used to but enough to give people an unrealistic impression of the quality of the experience they can get here. The viewer interface (any viewer, not just the official one) is unnecessarily complicated and messy, with hard to understand function names, relatively unimportant function featured and important ones hidden away etc.,etc. Even experienced users can get lost and for casual users and newcomers it can be a daunting - and completely unnecessary - challenge. (I still think the ctrl-alt-G shortcut is important here. Yes, in itself it's a trivial issue but the fact that Linden Lab thinks that particular feature is important enough to warrant a keyboard shortcut speaks volume about their attitude towards user friendliness.) Documentation, the user manual, is a mess, outdated, incomplete, scattered around, hard to find, so verbose you fall asleep reading before you get halfway, full of hard-to-understand tech talk and often so clumsily written it's hard to decipher. The cause of most of the problems we face is located between a chair and a keyboard and the user does have a responsibility to know how to operate a service or a product properly. But the service/product provider also has a responsibility to provide clear, complete and adequate instructions how to and there's no denying that Linden Lab has failed miserably there. The difficulty with having Linden Lab do that is they didn't build the vast majority of the things a new person will find in Second Life and there's no control over what someone will find within the first hour of being there. Technology and Second Life "fashion" (both wearable and with in-world objects) change with blinding speed but the older objects are still around. Imagine what a guide for car owners would look like if it had to be written taking account that they may drive any car ever made: "HEADLIGHTS - You should turn your headlights on at night. To do this, turn the knob on the stalk off of your steering column. Or turn the knob on the dashboard. Or PULL the knob on the dashboard. Of course, that's all assuming that your car has electric lights. If the headlights look like large brass lanterns, you'll have to open them up and light them with a match. Make sure they're full of kerosine. Or, if they're acetylene headlights, make sure the acetylene generator is full of carbide and water. Or if they're Prest-O-Lite acetylene headlights, you need to buy a pre-filled Presto-O-Lite acetylene cylinder. Good luck finding one though - they haven't been made for years because the factory kept exploding." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Theresa Tennyson wrote: The difficulty with having Linden Lab do that is they didn't build the vast majority of the things a new person will find in Second Life That's not what we're talking about here, Theresa, and you know it. Theresa Tennyson wrote: and there's no control over what someone will find within the first hour of being there Even ignoring the fact that your entire post it just a clumsy attempt to divert from any kind of serious discussion, that statement isn't even true. LL has full control over the content at Welcome Island and Social Island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steph Arnott Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Have none of those things, has daylight sensors, what do i do now if i want to turn them off as i bury my last victim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 ChinRey wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: The difficulty with having Linden Lab do that is they didn't build the vast majority of the things a new person will find in Second Life That's not what we're talking about here, Theresa, and you know it. Theresa Tennyson wrote: and there's no control over what someone will find within the first hour of being there Even ignoring the fact that your entire post it just a clumsy attempt to divert from any kind of serious discussion, that statement isn't even true. LL has full control over the content at Welcome Island and Social Island. Of course - because nobody ever ever clicks the "Shop" button at the top of the viewer or the "Destination Guide" button, do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Oh well, apparently you genuinely don't understand so here's an example. Let's say you want to create an alt and you want to do it properly, according to TOS and all that. So you look for Linden Lab's Official Alt Policy. It's not easy to find but it does exist and with a little bit of Googling you should be able to get there. This is what you find: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Alt_account_policies That page has one of my favorite LL quotes btw: "If you have legitimate reasons for creating multiple accounts but have been unable to do so: If you have a basic account, go to Help Island and talk to someone there."Do you need more examples or is that enough? Edit: Theresa Tennyson wrote: Of course - because nobody ever ever clicks the "Shop" button at the top of the viewer or the "Destination Guide" button, do they? Yes, I did mention that although Social Island is based on very good principles, it has a few flaws. That is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 LL has full control over the content at Welcome Island and Social Island. I realize it was only a tangent that Pamela and I were exploring about Sansar, but it's worth noting that LL is very intent on giving customers direct, unmediated access to Sansar experiences from that customer's website, where any new user welcoming or training would be the responsibility of the experience owner. Even in SL, though, something is afoot with community gateways (I'll be damned if I can figure out what, but something), which, too, would bypass the Linden-supplied onboarding process. So that's a challenge: all these skilled educators can offer their services to the community gateway developers. Not a Lab problem anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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