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Why has Linden Lab chosen to insult its existing Second Life user base?

Willow Dion

By Willow Dion,
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Willow Dion

Willow Dion

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Yes we do disagree. I do find it insulting that LL choses to effectively ignore most of its existing user base. For at least ten years I’ve heard LL publicity harping how SL is user designed and expanded. But when they start to develop a new virtual world they that the same old we know better just accept what we give you.


More disagreement: “Sansar also has to be a separate product from SL so as to not have to try and bring over content that is based on running on outdated technologyI am not talking about individuals computers I am talking bout server code and equipment.” Not sure how true that is. I’ve been riding the SL computer needed upgrade train for ten years. Back in 2005 I got acceptable performance for three years. Today that acceptable performance life of a personal computer is about a year and a half.


Another disagreement: If Sansar had been designed as a replacement for as you call it SL 1.0 then there would be no need for LL to have both an SL 1.0 and SL 2.0 running at the same time. If the update were done correctly then the overall revenue from Second Life would increase rather than declining as it is now.


Missing the point: “Being upset or feeling insulted that LL is developing Sansar to be a product that stands on its own is like being upset with EA Sports because it decides to make a new golf game when you are a big fan of their current football game.” It seems you are missing my point. Leaveing aside the debate about whether SL is or is not a game. It is the waste of resources that creating a new game causes. I find it ironic that LL trumpets the closing of one of its existing software products only to replace it with a new one. Wouldn’t those resources be better used by modernizing an existing software product that is showing its age?

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Madelaine McMasters

Madelaine McMasters

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Willow Dion wrote:

Wouldn’t those resources be better used by modernizing an existing software product that is showing its age?

It's not uncommon to discover that starting over from scratch is easier and better than modernizing something old. I discover this daily as I remodel my house.

Nostalgia, like feeling insulted, is a personal thing, and not necessarily rational.

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Bobbie Faulds

Bobbie Faulds

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Willow made my point for me. Second Life is one product. It is benefiting from some things from Sansar like the Project Bento skeleton for avis and Experiences.

Sansar is a totally different platform. Trying to equate it to SL is like trying to equate EA Star Wars Battlefront and their Madden NFL football. Both are from the same company but 2 totally different things. Or, for an even better analogy...Sim City 3000 with The Sims; similar but very different experiences.

From what I hear from different people in SL that are among top creators, right now you have to use Maya to create mesh for Sansar. Blender won't cut it at this point. It's still very much an alpha project right now so speculation over LL plans/motivations/etc. are fruitless and just engender more frustration than anything else since we don't really know what's planned. 

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HarrisonMcKenzie

HarrisonMcKenzie

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Then be insulted. Linden Labs is making a separate product for a separate market, made up of a separate customer base. If Microsoft started developing server-end management software for streaming data (not that they haven't already), why would they invite Office 365 customers in on the pre-apha process? Sansar isn't SL 2, and getting mad about it isn't going to change that. You personally weren't contacted to take part because you probably aren't the target market for the development.

 

Yes, I would like to a an SL that runs on a modern computer properly instead of being clumsy and unrefined. I would love a new SL whose uploading process better aligns with consumer and industry technologies instead of Leningrad heavily on the less professional and less standard Blender. I would love an SL that looks like it was made after the release of Toy Story 1. But that's not in the cards right now. So instead of chapping my ass over it, I let it go and moved on. If Sansar does something cool for me, great. If not, I won't be offended.

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Buttacwup Float

Buttacwup Float

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I am not sure we have any idea how small or large their sample size is to make an accurate assessment. We might guess, but I am not sure we really know. If they reached out to 50 people for signifigant inclusion I would think they were nuts. IMHO they don't need hundreds of people giving advice. 

You say that not making Sansar SL 2.0 is the roots of it's problems, but lets face it Sansar has ZERO problems as it doesn't exist yet. It may turn out to be so fantastic that we all move, or maybe it turns out to be so fantastic that LL reduces tier on land in SL, or maybe it flops, we have not clue an won't for a year or more.

I could not disagree more that Sansar should have been SL 2.0, because that would simply kill Second Life. I can't think of a single benefit to making another world with the sole goal of having it replace Second Life. What LL should be doing, and by many accounts are doing, is improving Second Life. I think the biggest limit LL has in updating SL is the opinons of the residents (how much could they do with the skeleton and avatar if they didnt need to maintain compatibility with system clothing for example...they cant though because it would cause an uproar due to broken content).

Does the SL user base have extensive knowledge? Age in Sl certainly doesn't grant knowledge. Time in world does not, how would LL make any sort of judgement other than to look at the people they know create and make large quanitities of the content in world.

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Callum Meriman

Callum Meriman

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Willow Dion wrote:

Why has Linden Lab chosen to insult its existing Second Life user base both by setting Project Sansar as a separate new product and allowing access to the developing future project by only those few it deems worthy?

Because, like HiFi and now Unity, it's not SL, and it never will be. The sooner people in SL stop calling it SL2 and holding it out as "the next best hope" the better.

We are not the target market and we will watch SL wither for another 10 years as a whole new group of people write games for the masses over in Sansar.

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mikka Luik

mikka Luik

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Callum Meriman wrote:

We are not the target market and we will watch SL wither for another 10 years as a whole new group of people write games for the masses over in Sansar.

First yep 'we' probably are not, as for the rest (both wither and do stuff there) why not plan on both as well as all sorts of other places :)

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Vivienne Schell

Vivienne Schell

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seanabrady wrote:

II often hear Sansar referred to as SL 2.0, and when I do I get the sense that the person making that reference will be very disappointed. Its a brand new world, made for a brand new world. New tools, new design.

Sansar - according to whatever Altberg announced so far - will not not even be a "WORLD", but some kind of assembly of disconnected or loosely connected standalone "Experiences" (while an "Experience" can be a "world" - or not.).

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Amethyst Jetaime

Amethyst Jetaime

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No one who was not chosen for Sansar's Alpha is being insulted.

While LL will certainly welcome SL users into Sansar, they are targeting other markets as well.  If they achieve the population they have stated they wanted in Sansar, SL users will be a small minority.

As far as I can tell from your profile and MP store, you don't have the skills they looked for when they chose people to be in the Alpha.  Not everyone in the Alpha is from SL either.  They wanted highly skilled content creators that use Maya.  Other than your pictures that you sell, I don't see that you are a content creator at all, let alone a highly skilled or professional content creator.

Perhaps you will be able to sign up for the Beta when it reaches that stage, if you have the skills they are looking for which at this point has not been made public.  Avatar age in and of itself is no indication that you could be of help though.  I've met many people as old as you and older that know very little about the backend of SL or how to create content.

You need to give up the thought that Sansar is SL2.  It has been stated over and over again by LL that it is NOT.  Google Sansar and watch the videos and read the written material about it.  Just the little bit of information that has  been released indicates that while it will be VR, it will be radically different from SL.

 

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Parhelion Palou

Parhelion Palou

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steph Arnott wrote:

What are these skills, as far as i can see, it commercial pros, usinig US$3000 plus commercial systems and software.

LL needed people to make 3D content, probably to LL's specifications, for LL to use to test their new graphics engine. This testing is still pre-alpha (as was confirmed not long ago by a Linden in these Forums). It's not a big deal to be involved at this point.

 

 

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Madelaine McMasters

Madelaine McMasters

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steph Arnott wrote:

why the reply? You made your bigoted comments clear.

BTW, if you want to switch accounts at least make the effort of trying to hide it.

If I understand this section of the thread correctly, you're making two accusations here, steph:

  1. The person in the chair operating the Parhelion avatar made clearly bigoted comments.
  2. That same person posted to this thread both as Parhelion and possibly as Amethyst, or perhaps some other avatar.

Could you explain how I've either misunderstood you, or point me to the evidence that led you to these conclusions?

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DartAgain

DartAgain

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I thought they were more insulting under Rod actually. While they acquired and dumped products and did a half baked job developing some of them, they didn't include SL users in any of it. Which might have been good because they did things like charge for a beta that went' nowhere. That was insulting.

But they are dated with their strategy of keeping their progress secret with Sansar. Game dev (which is what Sansar actually is, but using the term "experiences" so as to portray more than games) these days puts it out there because people that are into building games/experiences aren't fooled by screenshots and vague statements.

Recently released that's somewhat close to what Sansar is aiming for is Amazon Lumberyard. Yes, Amazon jumps into the fray. Lumberyard is still rough, but will be free. And how is Amazon handling this? The team put out Lumberyard in its rough state and is open about not having very clear plans. Their plan is to rely on early user feedback to grow Lumberyard into what it becomes.

Which when you think about it, was how Second life was built. SL wasn't originally designed to be a virtual world. It was an experiment for hardware. Only because they shifted focus (some used to joke every week) based on early adopters do we have Second Life.

Is Sansar SL 2.0? It can be. An "experience" in Sansar can be no different than a private region. Difference being land is bigger and whatever newer features Sansar is capable of. You've still got the same currency, user base, a marketplace, probably some form of destinations guide, etc.

And the smart thing to do would be to make it "sort" of SL with no mainland. Rather than to try to compete with game engines that catching up to being able to build virtual worlds and that do games/experiences far better already than Sansar will do. And we're already porting to more platforms than Sansar is likely to support.

Driven by the push for VR, I'm also expecting offerings coming from Facebook and Google for experiences development for tools, development, hosting.

By the way, merchants, your future is looking bright for content creation over the next couple of years.

LL still has gold with Sansar, I think even as a future SL, but as usual leading that horse to water is a painful exercise.

Edited: Fool that I am, kept calling Lumberyard, Lumberjack. Fixed.

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Amethyst Jetaime

Amethyst Jetaime

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steph Arnott wrote:

What are these skills, as far as i can see, it commercial pros, usinig US$3000 plus commercial systems and software.

For the Alpha you are absolutely correct. Content Creators invited were high level users of Maya, some are SL residents, and some professionals that are not SL residents.

When Beta begins they may specify other skills, such as scripting, animation, or maybe users of Blender, which I understand will be supported eventually.

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Amethyst Jetaime

Amethyst Jetaime

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

steph Arnott wrote:

why the reply? You made your bigoted comments clear.

BTW, if you want to switch accounts at least make the effort of trying to hide it.

If I understand this section of the thread correctly, you're making two accusations here, steph:
  1. The person in the chair operating the Parhelion avatar made clearly bigoted comments.
  2. That same person posted to this thread both as Parhelion and possibly as Amethyst, or perhaps some other avatar.

Could you explain how I've either misunderstood you, or point me to the evidence that led you to these conclusions?

LOL, I never use an alt to post on these forums.  I stand behind all my posts and have no reason to hide.  People can agree or disagree with me as they please. 

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Madelaine McMasters

Madelaine McMasters

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

LOL, I
never
use an alt to post on these forums.  I stand behind all my posts and have no reason to hide.  People can agree or disagree with me as they please. 

Unfortunately, I have an alt that insists on harassing me here.

Few things give me as much pleasure as disagreeing with people, and few people give me less pleasure than you.

;-).

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