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Do we own the air space as high as it gets if it is within our parcel?


Willow Danube
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I was scouring for space above my land to park a platform so I could use it for 'skydiving' (without parachute) when I'm bored or something...

So I rezzed a box..position it at the center of my parcel, sat on it and set the z position to every 500m. At 3000m my head bumped into a huge platform (megaprim) on what appears to belong to my next door neighbour who has about 3 times the size of my land.  Since I did not moved the x and y position, I assumed that I was still within my property line. I checked my prim counts and this one is not included in my prim allowance. I think I've read somewhere, you can only detect prims above certain meter.

To be honest, if air space above 1000m belongs to anyone who owns a parcel, I guess it doesn't really matter... but I was wondering if it is within my right to ask the owner to move his/her prims to his/her side of the land and with explanation of course.

I mean I only have 512sqm of land and besides wanting to jump from the sky I guess I don't need to build anything as high as 3000m, so they can build whatever else above me as long as it doesn't affect my wee 117 prims. Is there anything in Wiki that mentions the ownership of the sky above our parcel especially in Mainland?

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You own the airspace above your parcel.   No, they do not have the right to be in your airspace.  

Ask them to move their prim off your parcel.  You don't need to give any explanation, as they are encroaching and prim trespassing on your parcel space.  If they don't move their prim off your parcel space, the file an abuse report for prim encroachment.   They are being very rude.

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Thanks for the clarification, Celestiall.

I will IM the owner of the prim and ask the person to remove them. I'm not sure if they are intentionally rude or anything since it is not easy to know when you are above with no property lines as your guide.

I have never met my neighbour since I bought that parcel but I have noticed recently the neighbours surrounding me had removed their ban lines after I completed creating a beach hangout on my property. I guess they can't get into my parcel unless they remove their ban lines (I don't set any security to my parcel.. anyone can use the place for hanging out if they want).

I'm grateful because now I can go to a deeper water, which was on their side, so the floating animation on my AO can be activated. I would prefer to settle this in the most amicable manner for the benefits of all.

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The prim not counting in your 117 prims mean it the center of it is on their land. Wich in turn means you can not return it to them yourself. So, hopefully, they are good people and remove it.

Situations like this will be, if they were not so nice, easier when the still-in-development encroachment feature in the sim servers is finished and rolled out. Then you will have the ability to return prims that go over the borders into your land. (At least I think it is still in development and not rolled out yet.)

- Luc -

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maybe it would be helpful if you could see property lines in the sky not just the land if it were possible i'm sure there'd be less encroached prims and your neighbour wouldn't have built in your air space. any time i build in the sky or see someone elses prims i can't tell if it's in or encroaching my plot i'm sure others have the same problem

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I could be wrong, but I've interpreted anything past the height of banline effectiveness to be communal Linden airspace, as people piloting air vehicles are generally unable to see property lines at ground level and are usually just passing through at a relatively high rate of speed.

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Hi Willow...

You said you hit a megaprim platform on your property that did not figure into your prim count.  Someone answered that it must have the root prim on your neighbor's property which would indeed have to be the case.  I'm assuming since you bumped into it that the prim/platform was not phantom.

I had a similar experience awhile back that really had me puzzled.  My  home is 1000m in the sky.  I was experiencing a problem with friends trying to tp to my home not landing on the tp spot or even on my platform but, instead, freefalling down and usually landing on my neighbor's land.  In trying to troubleshoot this, I began at the ground level of my parcel, also a 512 sqm and also began right in the middle and flew up slowly to see if there was any explanation why friends using lm's, tp requests, you name it, couldn't land in my home.

At around the 200m level, I saw this huge blob right above my head.  I had no idea what it was or how it got there.  Same as you, no extra unaccounted for prims showed up in my prim count.  An inspect showed it belonged to my neighbor.  I was totally confused, however I was able to continue flying upwards and went right through the "blob."  One of my friends who was helping me troubleshoot the tp situation said that was a linked sim extender, which I'd never heard of. 

I flew back down where the blob was, got the name of the creator, and went to his store.  Just as my friend had said, the blob was part of a  linked set of sculptie prims that gives the parcel owner the appearance of mountains.  I then recalled a visit with this neighbor when she showed her new bunnies that she was breeding to me.  She lives at ground level but had created her bunny pens on a platform at...200m.  I also recalled thinking how beautiful the area around her platform was.  It looked like we were in snow-covered Alps.  I forgot to ask her how she made those.

I contacted the creator of this product, told him the the trouble I'd been having with tps and if my neighbor's "mountains" could be the cause.  He said the product wouldn't interfere with tps and the only problems it "might" cause would be increased lag.  While I was at the sales location, I checked out this product and on the information notecard the creator stated there was no refund for complaints from neighbors.

My tp issue was corrected (just a temporary SL "thing") and since I've never had lag in my home and I can fly through the "mountains" if I want to, I never mentioned it to my neighbor.  We have lived on the same sim and known each other close to three years.

I know this situation is different from yours due to the platform edging onto your property not being phantom so you can fly through it; however I just wanted to add my experience to this thread as others may encounter these sim extensions and be as confused as I was.

Personally, if I had your situation, I would first speak to your neighbors and courteously ask them to move their platform.  If they refuse and/or become rude, I would definitely submit an AR.  It might be "legal" but I personally don't feel it is "right" to use a technicality to abuse property rights.

On the old forums of 3 years ago, I used to see a good number of posts concerning neighbors having trees that were within a neighbor's land boundaries, but a good amount of the branches & leaves were over the adjacent parcel.  If I recall correctly, these cases were generally resolved by talking to the neighbor but there is always the possibility of rude people* so a few of these issues were AR'd.

*I used to own two parcels on my sim that were not adjacent and would  fly between them.  One day I slammed into a banline, feeling like a bird that hits glass windows.  I had my "View Banlines" turned off as no one in three years used them, at least in that area of the sim. I appreciate privacy and security but, just my personal opinion, don't like banlines.  Someone had recently purchased the parcel separating mine so I sent a very pleasant "Welcome to the neighborhood" type notecard, explained her parcel separated my two, which I realized wasn't her problem, but in the interest of being good neighbors, would she consider either using a security orb - which would give me time to fly over her parcel - or please add me to her white list, which is what those of us who have lived on this sim for a long time do with each other as a courtesy.  It was certainly her perogative to say no, case closed, and then I'd just fly around her land.  She did say no, but also informed me I had no right to even speak to her!!!  Okkkaaayyyy.  Fortunately she moved in about a month.  Which brings me to another issue that might eventually solve your problem: it is very common for people to buy and sell especially mainland fairly quickly. I don't know how long you've lived on your land or how long your neighbor has, but many times "problem neighbors/issues" resolve themselves by the neighbor moving.  Just a thought.

The short answer to your question is: you absolutely own all the vertical space of your parcel.  Good luck to you. :smileyhappy:




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Baloo Uriza wrote:

I could be wrong, but I've interpreted anything past the height of banline effectiveness to be communal Linden airspace, as people piloting air vehicles are generally unable to see property lines at ground level and are usually just passing through at a relatively high rate of speed.

 

No, the entire 4096 sqm of vertical parcel space belongs to the parcel's owner.

As far as air vehicles, there was quite a lively discussion on the old Resident Answers Forum begun by someone who enjoyed flying hot air balloons.  His complaint was encountering security orbs that tossed him out before he could maneuver away in time due to the slow moving rate of hot air balloons.  So, not all air traffic is moving at a high rate of speed. :smileywink:

The balloonist said he enjoyed being at about 100-300m high to view the landscape beneath.  At that height, not only was he going to encounter the occasional security orb, but a lot of structures.  When I placed my home in the air most recently, I had to go to 1,000 m before I wasn't next to some structure.

When that discussion was taking place, those in the thread said that from now on they wouldn't put anything in the air under 400m.  That was a nice gesture but only a tiny fraction of SL residents read the forums and even less that particular thread so it wasn't a solution unless the balloonist only flew over those people's parcels.  I use a security orb and, after that thread, I found one that allows me to set the warning time to as high as 60 seconds before giving the boot.  I figure anyone flying around can get out of a 512 sqm area within a minute.  I do agree the 10 secs warning is barely enough time to even read the warning.  I also began placed my home higher than 400m.  This was prior to the current 4096m ceiling. 

Basically it comes down to not being able to please everyone all the time. (This is not in reference to the OP as she has a bonafide encroachment complaint.)  Everything that falls under the LL "permissible" rules depends on people doing what they can to be better neighbors.

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^ Nice post, Czari.

I've also found that trying to be a good neighbor usually pays off. I welcome new neighbors & start a friendly dialog with them long before any issues come up. I let people pass through my land, & if I have problems with intruders in my house, I set my security orb only as far as my walls. If tree branches hang over my property line I don't care, as long as they don't pass into my house.

What to do about visual annoyance is another matter though. One can't politely tell a neighbor that what they think is a gorgeous castle or purple-flowered tree with particle emitters is a hideous eyesore to you. If one puts up an wall or tree border to hide it, doesn't that also show their taste is being called into question?

 

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^^Thank you. :smileyhappy: (Haven't figured out how  to do parts of quotes within a post yet.)

Re: Calling someone's build into question by putting up a screen, especially if said screen wasn't there when the person purchased their new parcel, could certainly be taken that way but, unless the new screen is awful looking on their side, I think most people on mainland know builds can change and most likely deal with it well.  It sounds like you'd be a wonderful, caring neighbor. :smileyhappy:

From living in the sky, I haven't really dealt with this tricky issue.  Occasionally I come down to ground level to see if any new builds are up and once or twice I've screamed (not really) and headed back up 1,000m - lol.  Sometimes the "ugly builds" fascinate me as in "Now what was the logic behind that?"  One example on my sim was someone who placed a white marble gazebo with a spiral staircase around it at "water (ground) level.  The topper was a pink grand piano inside the gazebo.  Ok, I can think of a lot of places this would really look pretty (especially if one's favorite piano color was pink...lol) but ummm....just sitting there on a water sim surrounded by tiki-type or Japanese style homes and nothing else around the gazebo?   Later, the addition of a small Japanese shrine and a couple of the good luck Neko cats appeared...underwater and under the gazebo.  Neither of the builds were ugly, just odd placements.

Only one time in three years on my sim have I seen an "ugly build" fight, that I know of.  Actually it was a "Banline Fight" prior to the ability to not view banlines.  Two neighboring residents who lived close to me had an ongoing feud due to one resident having banlines and the neighbor asking politely if she could take down the banlines or put her on the white list, etc.  Apparently the banline person said something to the effect of "Get lost" but the phrase that starts with an F.:smileywink:   So the other resident (who I knew slightly, thus knowing the background of this fight) put up a very high screen and on the neighbor's side drew banlines with the words "Now you can see what I do" on it in huge red letters.  She then sent several notecards over a period of time saying that all the neighbor had to do was take down her banlines or add her to white list or whatever and she would take her prim down.  It never happened and eventually both neighbors moved.  I think it's sad when a stalemate like that happens, especially when a verbal fight ensues. :smileysad:

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Willow Danube wrote:

Thanks Czari and everyone else who replied.

I have decided to just let it be for the moment... Come to think about it, I saved an extra prim so now I can use it to build a small box with the extended platform as my base and place some furnitures on it.. lol...

 

If you do build on top of the encroaching prim, let's hope it is not suddenly deleted. You'd literally be left hanging :)

- Luc -

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Baloo Uriza wrote:

I could be wrong, but I've interpreted anything past the height of banline effectiveness to be communal Linden airspace, as people piloting air vehicles are generally unable to see property lines at ground level and are usually just passing through at a relatively high rate of speed.

I agree for temporary transit purposes, especially as no-object-entry keeps out unmanned things.  This is permanent prim encroachment though.

When the root of the object and the prim-count stays on the neighbours parcel it can be possible to make a 'shared space' agreement with them - they get, say, 1000m - 2000m, you get 3000m - 4000m.  In that range you can extend into (but not place prims in) the other person's parcel area.  Not applicable anway in this case, since the OP wants to skydive through the height range.

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@Tobi... I have not seen it written anywhere if there is a minimum height to 'float' your builds. As Peter have stated, this is within the covenant of the parcel. I bought mine in an auction so I owned my own parcel... and I can build as high or as low. Whether it is right thing to do or not... I'm not sure myself. I generally do not like to be in an enclosed environment, and I definitely cannot stand being boxed... so as long as they don't block my tiny parcel with giant megaprims of walls ... I'd be happy.

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Aside from my house on the ground, I like to have a platform just above the clouds (~ 250 m). At this hight I can still see the land below, but the clouds hide it from most people using a lower view range. Lately I've enclosed my megaprim platform, so I have a building area on top & a private sky box garden below.

 

(Edit added 3-24-11)

p.s. I textured the bottom of my sky garden box to match the sky color as closely as I could. Seen through the clouds below, it's not very noticable.  At 250 m, I see water, buildings, trees & airships in my neighborhood, which is what I like. I don't like the fearureless "unobstructed view" of 1000 m.

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It's good practice to put your sky boxes/platforms/stuff above 1000m if you can, and at least 100m away from other sky features.  The reason for saying above 1000m is that it keeps the sky pleasantly clear for other residents in the region both today and in the future when graphics cards support longer draw distances with reasonable performance (i.e. it gives the folks on the ground a realistic and pleasant sky view).  More than 100m from other sky features gives people reasonable privacy and importantly is the range of shouting, so minimises disturbance for both you and them.  If you can't go above 1000m for some reason, try to make it at least 500m, or do something to make it look cool from below (e.g. there are some lovely sculpt floating islands which while they totally break the rules of reality, at least they look nicer than just a big square when viewed from below.

None of the above is really enforceable if it's contained within the owner's parcel limits, but it's good karma to try to build sky stuff in a way that doesn't upset people or give them a big lump of ugly right in their view.  Ignore those rules, and you deserve to get a big lump of ugly right in your view…

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While I do regularly enjoy flying and ballooning myself, I also have a skybox right below cloudcover that I wish to keep private.

So my solution? Rez a phantom hollow megaprim around it, though still within my own bounderies, and texture the outside with "banline tape". The non-flickering kind, and low resolution (128*128 I believe). So it loads pretty fast, is visible with any view setting over 30 meters (and to really enjoy ballooning, you'd want a view range of at least 150 meters), and gives plenty visible warning to anyone coming near it. There's still a 10 second security orb inside, which is set to boot a person home, but it doesn't extend outside the megaprim.

Result: fast airplanes can easily fly through in the rare occasion they don't spot it in time (though they risk crashing into the skybox then, but that's their problem for flying faster than their surroundings rez), while ballooners get plenty of visible cue to navigate around it. It might not look too awesome to my neighbours, but go 50 meters up or down, and it shouldn't bother.

 

And yes, you do own all the space above your land. Common practice, is to rez a prim at the corner of your land, and then simply change the z-position to your intended building height. When you go outside that perimeter, you're encrouching your neighbours. When your neighbours come inside, they're encrouching on you.

It's up to you how to handle such. But if it breaks your enjoyment, for example because you can't even skydive on your own land, then they HAVE to move out the prim, and if they don't, you CAN AR the object, in which case a Linden may eventually come and just remove it and anything else attached. And your neighbour won't like finding his skybox in his Lost & Found while logging in naked, but that'd be his problem for being stupid.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 


Czari Zenovka wrote:

 

No, the entire 4096 sqm of vertical parcel space belongs to the parcel's owner.

As far as air vehicles, there was quite a lively discussion on the old Resident Answers Forum begun by someone who enjoyed flying hot air balloons.  His complaint was encountering security orbs that tossed him out before he could maneuver away in time due to the slow moving rate of hot air balloons.  So, not all air traffic is moving at a high rate of speed. :smileywink:

The balloonist said he enjoyed being at about 100-300m high to view the landscape beneath.  At that height, not only was he going to encounter the occasional security orb, but a lot of structures.  When I placed my home in the air most recently, I had to go to 1,000 m before I wasn't next to some structure.

When that discussion was taking place, those in the thread said that from now on they wouldn't put anything in the air under 400m.  That was a nice gesture but only a tiny fraction of SL residents read the forums and even less that particular thread so it wasn't a solution unless the balloonist only flew over those people's parcels.



 

Honestly the space between ground and 500m might as well be avoided for lag reasons... down that low, you will still get a lot of 'render lag' from the objects on the ground. Its completely pointless to reze there unless you're rezzing right below, in, or above the cloud layer for 'effect'.

People do themselves a favor going above 1000m, and a further favor picking heights with nothing else visible in them.

Let alone being good neighbors - a concept many in SL are incapable of grasping, thus I mention the self interest reason first.

 

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