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Those cars on the mainland roads. Grrrrrrr.


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Marianne McCann wrote:

That would be in error. There is an automated water trolley in the center of both the east and west side that serves the very platforms you speak of. These do automatically lift the drawbridges on their route. Why, here's a picture of one of the trolleys doing just that:


Oh, well, I stand pleasantly corrected, then!  Though I think my point about the BC canals being a little more suited for random stumbling to be valid since the vehicles in question don't try to eggregiously violate gravity.

 

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Baloo Uriza wrote:

Oh, well, I stand pleasantly corrected, then!  Though I think my point about the BC canals being a little more suited for random stumbling to be valid since the vehicles in question don't try to eggregiously violate gravity.

 

Perhaps so! Though, to be honest, I view any vehicle that is "randomly stumbling" to be flawed. Vehicles don't (or should I say, "shouldn't") stumble.

 

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Baloo Uriza wrote in part:

This problem with automated vehicles is ultimately what the VRC used to convince LDPW to stop with the Linden automated trains on the SLRR.


 

Just in passing, I don't think the VRC* really had much to do with that.  As I understand the history, the Linden trains on the SLRR fell victim to Havoc 4, and were removed because the bleeping things kept flying off the tracks.  They could surely be replaced now if desired, but I very much doubt that LDPW would ever put their own automated trains on the SLRR again.

Others have already mentioned that the Bay City water trolleys are in operation;  I rode one yesterday.  It may be worth noting that both the Route 66 trolleys and water trolleys in Bay City operate by waypoint navigation, not by discovering routes by examining parcel properties as do AnnMarie's vehicles.  (The latter is a very much more difficult problem.)

Holocluck asserts that "If anyone should be making scheduled vehicles on Mainland, it's the moles or a special project in close cooperation with LDPW."  But I don't think the LDPW does that.  Do we think they officially blessed Cubey Terra's flights, or Qu Qi's ferries across ANWR and between the SLRR terminals? 

Maybe, but to be quite honest, I'd personally be more uncomfortable taking a prototype bus service to the Moles and asking for special permission than I would be just trying to be responsible doing it myself.  It would be one thing if they had resources to examine the effects on sims and the match with some vision for the Mainland user experience, etc., but I think that's asking way more of them than is reasonable.  And even if they could do all that, I wouldn't want to put them in the position of blessing any one resident's project; it just doesn't seem fair to ask for that.

 

*By way of disclaimer, I should say that I am most emphatically *not* speaking for the VRC in any of these discussions.

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Understood Qie.  No group has taken a position on this topic and no one should assume any has.

That's another distinction - these problem vehicles are not running on any specific path. They feel their way around.  I took  a test ride once to get a first hand of the experience before taking assorted action - which I'm sure was tallied for some illusory "satisfied avatar" list - and found the ride a bit nauseating with its lumbering here and there.

As for LDPW's designs on the SLRR, I thought they had originally planned to offer sporadic rail service on molemade trains, with enough leeway for rail fans to ride their own trains between scheduled runs.  Somewhere along the line it became all-residents and no SL presence. It disappointed me. Kinda glad I let go of the land by the tracks (although I miss being close to the TMA community)

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Just in passing, I don't think the VRC* really had much to do with that.  As I understand the history, the Linden trains on the SLRR fell victim to Havoc 4, and were removed because the bleeping things kept flying off the tracks.  They could surely be replaced now if desired, but I very much doubt that LDPW would ever put their own automated trains on the SLRR again.

 

That was a factor, and LDPW removed the trains for a while because of that.  However, the LDPW blog mentioned that the moles assigned to the SLRR were working on fixing the automated trains, that's when the VRC got involved in opposition.  Ultimately SLRR capitulated to being an exclusively ROW-maintenance division of the LDPW.  This worked to everyone's advantage on the railway:  SLRR now focuses their work with resident groups to add switches, crossings and spurs as needed to attach to privately-owned railway connections.

 


Qie Niangao wrote:

Others have already mentioned that the Bay City water trolleys are in operation;  I rode one yesterday.  It may be worth noting that both the Route 66 trolleys and water trolleys in Bay City operate by waypoint navigation, not by discovering routes by examining parcel properties as do AnnMarie's vehicles.  (The latter is a very much more difficult problem.)

 

 

 

Speaking of SL 66, I think that really counts as a Planning FAIL on LDPW's part, though not one that could have been readily anticipated.  The highway ends at Ahern Village and doesn't pick up again until Noyo due to sandboxes and Ahern itself (though a big roundabout around the outside edge of the Welcome Area and a sun-baked highway across the roughly five kilometer gap between Ahern and Noyo through the sandboxes would be pretty nifty...the waterways around Noyo would require some interesting and massive bridges, though.  On the other hand, the ability to drive an approximately 20 kilometer route across Sansara would be pretty epic.  Before they put in guard rails on the hairpin going westbound 66 into the Noyo Rez Area, if you got enough speed, it was possible to jump off the embankment on the outer side of the hairpin and into the sandboxes in a massive jump that makes The Dukes of Hazzard look like Matchbox cars, and just free-drive across the sandbox desert and around the outside of Ahern to get back to the highway.  The trip wasn't exactly possible eastbound, though.

SL 50 could use some consistent signage once it enters Shermerville...it splits into 50N and 50S, both running perpendicular to the 50 that runs into 66, without so much as a hint of signage.

 


Qie Niangao wrote:

Holocluck asserts that "If anyone should be making scheduled vehicles on Mainland, it's the moles or a special project in close cooperation with LDPW."  But I don't think the LDPW does that.  Do we think they officially blessed Cubey Terra's flights, or Qu Qi's ferries across ANWR and between the SLRR terminals? 

 

 

Just a point of clarification, the SLRR doesn't operate on the northern coast, just the Bay City Streetcar, and the Nova Albion Streetcar (which I understand there may be plans to connect the two systems and get the NASC running again).  The line that runs on the northern coast is the privately owned Great Second Life Railway.

 

 

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Well Qie, Abbotts Aerodrome is private property. He has every right to run his planes there. Beyond that, as mentioned, any plane over mainland is occupied by an avatar. The planes are temp and disappear. If you caught one flying over Rizal then it's 100% guaranteed there was a passenger.

Another big difference is while in flight, Cubey's planes are out of everybody's way and not dominating a protected route.

 

As for Oona Opinion's free cars, someone riding a car on an SL street is what the streets are for. A genuine avatar riding on protected land or sea or airspace is what it's for. Not for some unoccupied monstrosity to push people aside for the enjoyment of nobody.

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Holocluck:  Okay, I guess I misunderstood the plans for airship travel in Bay City.  I thought they were to be regularly scheduled flights that didn't depend on the existence of any passengers.  Sorry if that was confused.

But frankly, I'd favor that.  I love it that the Bay City trolleys and water trolleys go by, with or without passengers.  And although I'm acutely aware that not all rail enthusiasts share my view, I quite like the occasional passing of automated stock on the SLRR, even when empty.

Granted, the ones to which I refer are phantom so they don't really interfere with other rail traffic.  (It's not ideal for immersion to ride through other trains, but the SLRR tracks simply don't have enough turn-out capacity to do much about it, regardless of how sophisticated the switching and sensing, and IMHO the practice of moving one unit off the track onto blank right-of-way is not a heck of a lot more compelling than phantom trains simply passing through each other.)

Anyway, my point is that empty automated vehicles as environmental ornament is fine with me, in concept.  In fact, I like them.  We may have to agree to differ on this matter of aesthetics.

I understand that a rule of "no non-LDPW-approved unoccupied automated vehicles" creates a clear frontier between allowed and forbidden.  But unless LDPW has more capacity than I appreciate, that rule would forbid stuff that I rather like.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Anyway, my point is that empty automated vehicles as environmental ornament is fine with me, in concept.  In fact, I like them.  We may have to agree to differ on this matter of aesthetics.

I understand that a rule of "no non-LDPW-approved unoccupied automated vehicles" creates a clear frontier between allowed and forbidden.  But unless LDPW has more capacity than I appreciate, that rule would forbid stuff that I rather like.

 

I'm with you on that, Qie.  My main complaints with auto-vehicles are road vehicles on the SLRR, road vehicles blundering their way onto non-road areas, residents being pushed by auto-vehicles, and littering.  I own a SLRR region and am very happy with the random auto rail vehicles in general, they make the place more alive, same with auto road vehicles when they actually are on the roads, auto-boats on the water, or auto aircraft.

They key for whether an auto-vehicle operation is ok vs. not in my mind is whether it has any significant negative impact on residents.  If it frequently causes a litter issue, it's not ok (occasional littering has to be allowed because SL is imperfect, and a glitch or lag spike at the wrong moment could cause litter from a normally very reliable vehicle).  If it pushes residents around (either an AV standing there, or an AV in a vehicle), it's not ok.  If it's used as a commercial advert/begging on Linden land, it's not ok.  If it's totally out of theme with specific themed areas (i.e. road vehicles on the railway or water), that harms the immersion for others and is not ok.

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AnnMarie Otoole wrote:
*  Despite accusations, they doe NOT spam the public.  They do offer free cars to PASSENGERS and allow tipping the driver.
*  They do NOT spam menus unless you are a passenger



Yes they do. Not every time, but I've had a number of popups from them. I did not click them, ride them or anything else. All I was doing is standing near them.

If you read through the messages here, you'll see a number of us aren't saying we love them or we hate them. We're saying it was fine, but they're getting out of control. I know I'd rather work with you than put in an AR. But it doesn't come across as though you want to work with anyone to fix the problems. Just cutting the numbers in half and looking into why they message bystanders would be a good start.
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AnnMarie Otoole changed the original title of this thread with his first answer.

I don't like that kind of changes. Just my opinion, of course.

This post is only for recover the original title :)

BTW I hate the behavior of those cars, I think those cars are a big problem for Mainland and their residents (owners, visitors, travelers...)

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Granted, the ones to which I refer are phantom so they don't really interfere with other rail traffic.  (It's not ideal for immersion to ride through other trains, but the SLRR tracks simply don't have enough turn-out capacity to do much about it, regardless of how sophisticated the switching and sensing, and IMHO the practice of moving one unit off the track onto blank right-of-way is not a heck of a lot more compelling than phantom trains simply passing through each other.)

There's plenty of turnout capacity if everyone actually bothers with the blocking signals and switches.  The avatar-operated trains are consistently good about this...

 

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Qie Niangao wrote:

 

Baloo Uriza wrote in part:

This problem with automated vehicles is ultimately what the VRC used to convince LDPW to stop with the Linden automated trains on the SLRR.


 

Just in passing, I don't think the VRC* really had much to do with that.  As I understand the history, the Linden trains on the SLRR fell victim to Havoc 4, and were removed because the bleeping things kept flying off the tracks.  They could surely be replaced now if desired, but I very much doubt that LDPW would ever put their own automated trains on the SLRR again.

FWIW, I believe that was the SLRC (Commission)/SLRR Rail Group that was opposed to automated trains on the system, not the VRC. Alphabet soup makes things difficult!

 

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Baloo Uriza wrote:

Speaking of SL 66, I think that really counts as a Planning FAIL on LDPW's part, though not one that could have been readily anticipated.  The highway ends at Ahern Village and doesn't pick up again until Noyo due to sandboxes and Ahern itself (though a big roundabout around the outside edge of the Welcome Area and a sun-baked highway across the roughly five kilometer gap between Ahern and Noyo through the sandboxes would be pretty nifty...the waterways around Noyo would require some interesting and
massive
 bridges, though.  On the other hand, the ability to drive an approximately 20 kilometer route across Sansara would be pretty epic.  Before they put in guard rails on the hairpin going westbound 66 into the Noyo Rez Area, if you got enough speed, it was possible to jump off the embankment on the outer side of the hairpin and into the sandboxes in a massive jump that makes
The Dukes of Hazzard
look like Matchbox cars, and just free-drive across the sandbox desert and around the outside of Ahern to get back to the highway.  The trip wasn't exactly possible eastbound, though.

SL 50 could use some consistent signage once it enters Shermerville...it splits into 50N and 50S, both running perpendicular to the 50 that runs into 66, without so much as a hint of signage.

Just a point of clarification, the SLRR doesn't operate on the northern coast, just the Bay City Streetcar, and the Nova Albion Streetcar (which I understand there may be plans to connect the two systems and get the NASC running again).  The line that runs on the northern coast is the privately owned Great Second Life Railway.

 

 

I too would love to see road continue somehow past Nova Albion and Ahern, and making a run from Bay City to the far end of Sansara would be epic.  I agree on the Route 50 badging.

(I might suggest some of this discussion on the routes, etc. could make a good separate thread in the mainland board, aside from the discussion of the automated vehicles)

As far as SLRR on the Northern coast, yes there is the Bay City short line, from Inner Harbor (Bay City Station) to 

Manyiminya. It's not a long line, but it is there.

 

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Marianne McCann wrote:

 (I might suggest some of this discussion on the routes, etc. could make a good separate thread in the mainland board, aside from the discussion of the automated vehicles) 

 

Get the ball rolling and I'll be happy to chime in.

 


Marianne McCann wrote:

As far as SLRR on the Northern coast, yes there is the Bay City short line, from Inner Harbor (Bay City Station) to 
Manyiminya. It's not a long line, but it is there.

 

Like the Nova Albion Streetcar, the Bay City Streetcar runs on trackage that is mutually incompatible with the rest of the SLRR system, and both streetcar lines are mutually incompatible with each other.  Solving the Nova Albion problem has been tricky for the LDPW as the original Linden who designed it died in a traffic accident in Dallas back in 2007 as I understand it.

 

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Qie Niangao wrote:

This may be restating the obvious, but in case there's any confusion: the Bay City SLRR (running north from the staion) is a different system from the trolleys (which run east and west on route 66).

 

Unless I'm mistaken, that's never been more than a test track for the LDPW's latest ROW build parts.

 

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Baloo Uriza wrote:

 

Unless I'm mistaken, that's never been more than a test track for the LDPW's latest ROW build parts.

 

It was finished up and the "test" portions removed/replaced with finished pieces. There is additional rail portions for this spur planned in Owens Beach, as well as some (slow) rail work being done within the more urban parts of Daley Bay/Inner Harbor, including more work around the rail ferry dock. This system is, as you note, incompatible with the Bay City Trolley, and is presented separately as an SLRR short line at this time.

 

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My experience is that the old LDPW office hours were the place where a lot of the problems got aired, but there's no LDPW Official Position.

I was just a lowly user, but I miss those meetings. They were a large part of finding out what was happening.

It strikes me a little odd that this business seemed to start when they ended, as if we lost a set of connections and channels that allowed for the sort of feedback which moderated individual excesses.

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The roads are empty because a LOT of people gave up after being bullied off routes from these things.

 

The roads always seemed to be pretty empty. Crossing region boundaries has become a little more reliable, but I've travelled for miles without seeing anything on roads. Maybe that's why these stand out so much: even a few automated vehicles have been a big increase in traffic.

 

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Cinnamon Lohner wrote:

If you don't want the aggravation of living on the Mainland, move to the Estates.  Really quite simple and frankly not worth all the typing you just did which I scanned and then lost interest in.  All my property is mainland and on Linden roads and as stated I don't have a problem with these vehicles.  You have other options, exercise them.  Or live your Second Life as a miserable mainland owner.   Your world, Your choice

--Cinn

 

Mainland: it's only going to vanish when Linden Labs vanish.

Private Estate: the estate owners do seem to pay more attention to their customers.

I can see advantages both ways. Part of the problem with issues such as this is that we can think we have cause for an AR, but nothing seems to happen. And eventually people start finding their own solutions, which was part of what made RedZone possible.

Annoy enough people, with no apparent official reaction, and something nasty will start happening. I've seen these vehicles bounce off Linden Land at region boundaries, and I can imagine somebody using a sort of instant-action security orb to get rid of them. And then a legitimate manually operated vehicle has similar boundary-crossing problems, and *Wham*!

This could escalate.

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Here are the pertinent provisions of the ToS that would seem to apply in the present situation:

8.3(iv) Engage in malicious or disruptive conduct that impedes or interferes with other users' normal use of the Service

I think the vehicles are disruptive and they impede or interfere with other users' normal use. People normally use SL to simulate RL and when garbage trucks or big smoky tractors repeatedly appear in an area where they are inappropriate, i.e., on the ocean, on the SLRR or on a footpath, it is disruptive and intereferes with other users' normal use.

The ToS incorporates the Community Standards as well in Articles 4.3 and 14 of the ToS. The relevant portions of the Community Standarsd are as follows:

3. "Assault in Second Life means: shooting, pushing, or shoving another Resident in a Safe Area." 

6. Disturbing the Peace... "objects that intentionally slow server performance or inhibit another Resident's ability to enjoy Second Life are examples of Disturbing the Peace."

Regarding (3) I don't see how the tank shooting someone qualifies as self-defense merely because someone touched it. Objects are touchable and clickable and that is expected behavior in a safe area such as on the SLRR. Touching an object is not an attack justifying shooting of the person that touched the object.

Concerning (6),  the excessive number of vehicles are inhibiting other Residents' abilities to enjoy SL and are therefore disturbing the peace.

The most pertinent provision of all from the Community Standards is probably Global Attacks, which provides: "Objects, scripts, or actions which broadly interfere with or disrupt the Second Life community, the Second Life servers or other systems related to Second Life will not be tolerated in any form."

The vehicles are broadly interering with and disrupting the Second Life community by creating a nuisance throughout the entire Mainland, at least on public pathways. 

 

 

 

 

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You know... maybe it's just me, but complaints about the tank vehicle seem silly to me, and rather dilute the real issues here.  (The "self defense" defense is at least equally silly, but I take it to have been tongue-in-cheek.)  Yeah, the ToS talks about "shooting" and I suppose whatever the tank is doing is kinda like "shooting"... and god knows this is not exactly a good time to be showing tanks shooting at civilians (if only there could be such a time, someday)... but even to the most sensitive n00b, that must seem more a folly than a threat.

I also think there's a more serious and clear-cut violation: selling on Linden public land.  I don't know where this is forbidden in the ToS + policies, but setting up shop in an infoHub would not end well.  Personally, I really don't think the creator of these things is malicious in asking for a "tip for the driver."  Having all those rez areas costs tier, and there's non-trivial effort in scripting and operating the fleet, so I can see the rationale for wanting to let riders show their appreciation with L$s.  But it's just wrong to do it on Linden land.  This would not be the first SL business plan that turned out to be impractical.

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Qie Niangao wrote:

I also think there's a more serious and clear-cut violation: selling on Linden public land.  I don't know where this is forbidden in the ToS + policies, but setting up shop in an infoHub would not end well.  Personally, I really don't think the creator of these things is
malicious
in asking for a "tip for the driver."  Having all those rez areas costs tier, and there's non-trivial effort in scripting and operating the fleet, so I can see the rationale for wanting to let riders show their appreciation with L$s.  But it's just wrong to do it on Linden land.  This would not be the first SL business plan that turned out to be impractical.

Agreed, Qie. Really, I don't feel the creator is malicious. Well-intentioned, surely. Misguided, yes. 

 

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