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HenryCrawford

Second Life Marketplace Review System is PATHETIC!!!!!

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1 hour ago, Chrismaky said:

The entirety of the marketplace in general is pathetic. Its design (including its review system) is so outdated its not even funny. Nothing on that site has changed since 2004.

It was not around in 2004. There is a long marketplace history, starting with SL Exchange, a third-party marketplace.  It was bought by Linden Lab and re-named Xstreet. Xstreet was later migrated over to the marketplace, which at first used the same magic boxes as Xstreet though very different in many ways. Marketplace was integrated with SL as it currently is. Then a couple of years ago we got direct delivery,  a major development. There have been other incremental developments since inception.

I am bad with dates.

Edited by Pamela Galli
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7 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

It was not around in 2004. There is a long marketplace history, starting with SL Exchange, a third-party marketplace.  It was bought by Linden Lab and re-named Xstreet. Xstreet was later migrated over to the marketplace, which at first used the same magic boxes as Xstreet though very different in many ways. Marketplace was integrated with SL as it currently is. Then a couple of years ago we got direct delivery,  a major development. There have been other incremental developments since inception.

I am bad with dates.

You're probably right but what I want to know is why its web design look like its was made in 2004. Sansars marketplace looks nice and clean. You do realize the ONLY thing that got a major design facelift has been the forums, right? xD

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14 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

It was not around in 2004. There is a long marketplace history, starting with SL Exchange, a third-party marketplace.  It was bought by Linden Lab and re-named Xstreet. Xstreet was later migrated over to the marketplace, which at first used the same magic boxes as Xstreet though very different in many ways. Marketplace was integrated with SL as it currently is. Then a couple of years ago we got direct delivery,  a major development. There have been other incremental developments since inception.

I am bad with dates.

SL Exchange was renamed to XstreetSL when Linden Lab took a more strict control over the use of SL and Second Life trademarks.  

XstreetSL was then acquired by Linden Lab in 2009, along with the now defunct OnRez Marketplace.

OnRez was shut down.

XstreetSL was then migrated to the Second Life Marketplace, and XstreetSL was subsequently shut down.

Many of the issues that users have reported and continue to report, is because of the original SLX/XstreetSL system.

Linden Lab chose to create the Second Life Marketplace in a way that would bridge the old XstreetSL system. 

Had the SL Marketplace been a brand new, stand alone, system, as is the Sansar Marketplace, then many things could have, and would have, been done differently.

Linden Lab chose the least disruptive system/build available for the Second Life Marketplace.  Instead of forcing sellers to create all brand new listings for items they had had listed for years, those listings on XstreetSL were migrated to the new system, along with usage of the old Magic Box vendor delivery system.

Since the listings were migrated, the decision was also made to migrate the original reviews/ratings.  This meant that the Marketplace rating system had to accept those old, original ratings/reviews. 

At this point, there is only so much updating that can be done to the existing Second Life Marketplace because of the integration of the old XstreetSL system.  The only way to address some of the issues would be with an entire rewrite of the code.  This would mean 3+ years of new development, along with a loss of ALL of the current listings, sales history, ratings, etc. 

Sansar is brand new. A lot of the bells and whistles that users would like to see on the Second Life Marketplace have the potential to be written into the Sansar Marketplace from the very start because it is brand new code, while the Second Life Marketplace is limited because of its age and the code.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Dakota Linden said:

 

Had the SL Marketplace been a brand new, stand alone, system, as is the Sansar Marketplace, then many things could have, and would have, been done differently.

Linden Lab chose the least disruptive system/build available for the Second Life Marketplace.  Instead of forcing sellers to create all brand new listings for items they had had listed for years, those listings on XstreetSL were migrated to the new system, along with usage of the old Magic Box vendor delivery system.

Since the listings were migrated, the decision was also made to migrate the original reviews/ratings.  This meant that the Marketplace rating system had to accept those old, original ratings/reviews. 

True, the devs worked very hard to keep merchants as happy as possible, saving us a lot of work. They didn't have to do that, but they did. (Ty Brodsky and Grant)

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6 minutes ago, Chrismaky said:

I'm talking about the changing the sites design, not the code.

Yes, we know... pointless changes for the 'fashionable look' and to hell with the function... Old news on many websites,

Some buffoon suggests a 'stylish modern makeover' to management, they approve the plan and next thing you know some over paid under talented php web monkey has reworked the forum or webstore or support pages, or online documentation into some 'hella kewl contemporary web-art' that is literally unreadable by anyone who doesn't have a 30 inch monitor & 20/20 vision, and is over 30...
 

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7 hours ago, Dakota Linden said:

At this point, there is only so much updating that can be done to the existing Second Life Marketplace because of the integration of the old XstreetSL system.  The only way to address some of the issues would be with an entire rewrite of the code.  This would mean 3+ years of new development, along with a loss of ALL of the current listings, sales history, ratings, etc.

Missing a step in there. XStreet was written in PHP (I know, I've seen the code), which was later rewritten in Ruby by LL, based on the Spree shopping cart.

Edited by DartAgain

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3 hours ago, Chrismaky said:

I'm talking about the changing the sites design, not the code. 

Most people are more concerned with functionality than they are the outward appearance(s).

It could look like it was written in mud by a duck with a stick coming from its beak for all I care, as long as it functions properly. How the site, or pages "look" doesn't remotely matter to me..functionality does. Perhaps for some "looks" matter more, but from this merchant and customer's standpoint...looks don't mean jack. There are far more important things to worry about. 

I actually do agree that the mp needs an overhaul, as does the review system..but not in how it looks, rather how it functions both for customers as well as merchants.  You kinda sound like an instructor I had during one of my web design courses a couple of years ago. She was so concerned with how the pages actually looked, she completely ignored how they function(and graded based on that, which was piss poor I might add) If we didn't design our pages to look super fancy with all kinds of bells and whistles, but our sites functioned properly, we lost points on our assignments. Those whose sites functioned poorly but looked fabulous, got full credit. A bit assbackwards if you ask me.

(and on that note, those of us that did the assignments properly, ie, focused on functionality as those were the *requirements* did get our grades overturned by someone with a bit more brain matter, btw...and that instructor no longer teaches that course, lmao) 

 

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9 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

Most people are more concerned with functionality than they are the outward appearance(s).

It could look like it was written in mud by a duck with a stick coming from its beak for all I care, as long as it functions properly. How the site, or pages "look" doesn't remotely matter to me..functionality does. Perhaps for some "looks" matter more, but from this merchant and customer's standpoint...looks don't mean jack. There are far more important things to worry about. 

I actually do agree that the mp needs an overhaul, as does the review system..but not in how it looks, rather how it functions both for customers as well as merchants.  You kinda sound like an instructor I had during one of my web design courses a couple of years ago. She was so concerned with how the pages actually looked, she completely ignored how they function(and graded based on that, which was piss poor I might add) If we didn't design our pages to look super fancy with all kinds of bells and whistles, but our sites functioned properly, we lost points on our assignments. Those whose sites functioned poorly but looked fabulous, got full credit. A bit assbackwards if you ask me.

(and on that note, those of us that did the assignments properly, ie, focused on functionality as those were the *requirements* did get our grades overturned by someone with a bit more brain matter, btw...and that instructor no longer teaches that course, lmao) 

 

Your instructor was very wise. The design of a site is extremely important. Because first impressions visually matter A LOT. You obviously took a class so why do you not know this simple basic design fact? You really should have paid more attention. 

But that's not to say I don't agree with you as functionality is also important. But as someone else said It's almost impossible to fix it without wreckiing the whole thing.

Might as well make it look nice and dated to ease the pain of use, ya know? 

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12 hours ago, Klytyna said:

Yes, we know... pointless changes for the 'fashionable look' and to hell with the function... Old news on many websites,

Some buffoon suggests a 'stylish modern makeover' to management, they approve the plan and next thing you know some over paid under talented php web monkey has reworked the forum or webstore or support pages, or online documentation into some 'hella kewl contemporary web-art' that is literally unreadable by anyone who doesn't have a 30 inch monitor & 20/20 vision, and is over 30...
 

This is why I've always said that SL is more for the older generation. And that's fine. But it's gonna die with your generation if it's not updated. That's a fact.

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33 minutes ago, Chrismaky said:

=Your instructor was very wise. The design of a site is extremely important. Because first impressions visually matter A LOT. You obviously took a class so why do you not know this simple basic design fact? You really should have paid more attention. 

But that's not to say I don't agree with you as functionality is also important. But as someone else said It's almost impossible to fix it without wreckiing the whole thing.

Might as well make it look nice and dated to ease the pain of use, ya know? 

 For one thing, it was a required course for my programming degree(oddly, my design degree did not require this particular course, but that's neither here nor there), I didn't choose the course, lol. The second thing I need to point out is that this assignment's requirements were on its functionality NOT appearance, and we were instructed to place little to no emphasis on aesthetics(it was in fact meant to be relatively bland for good reason), but rather focus on specific functions within the pages. Considering my grade, once evaluated by an actual professor(who had to fix many grades for this course, and now teaches it full time) remained a solid straight A, I would say I did quite well, especially in the "paying attention" department, thanks for the concern though. Perhaps you don't understand some of the topics covered in web design courses, but I assure you they are often focused as much on functionality as they are design.

 I do, very much, know that a website's look matters, I'm not a nitwit. But if a website does not function properly, looking pretty, nice, whatever, will not fix this, nor make it a worthwhile site to visit(much less use).

Edited by Tari Landar
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19 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

 For one thing, it was a required course for my programming degree(oddly, my design degree did not require this particular course, but that's neither here nor there), I didn't choose the course, lol. The second thing I need to point out is that this assignment's requirements were on its functionality NOT appearance, and we were instructed to place little to no emphasis on aesthetics(it was in fact meant to be relatively bland for good reason), but rather focus on specific functions within the pages. Considering my grade, once evaluated by an actual professor(who had to fix many grades for this course, and now teaches it full time) remained a solid straight A, I would say I did quite well, especially in the "paying attention" department, thanks for the concern though. Perhaps you don't understand some of the topics covered in web design courses, but I assure you they are often focused as much on functionality as they are design.

 I do, very much, know that a website's look matters, I'm not a nitwit. But if a website does not function properly, looking pretty, nice, whatever, will not fix this, nor make it a worthwhile site to visit(much less use).

That's because design and function are supposed to flow together. That said, LL's choice back in the day was a very very stupid one. That's why we are where we are now with the marketplaces piss poor design and functionality. 

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Design, of course, is subjective.  Personally, I don't have any major complaints about the design of the Marketplace, nor with the functionality for the most part.  There are a few functional things that I think could be improved, but they are mostly more on the minor inconvenience end of the line for me.  Perhaps it's just that I do more online shopping in the SL Marketplace than other commercial shopping sites, but I do prefer the Marketplace design over the design of some of the other sites where I've shopped online.

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I am with @Pamela Galli on this one. The devs did what they could to make that transition as seamless as possible, and in that they succeeded. While it may have resulted in some limitations of form and function, the MP by and large does the job.

To LL's credit, the method of listing items today is far easier then it was in in the past. The site is generally very responsive, and I can't recall ever having an issue receiving an item that I purchased. I know it does occur, but I'd be surprised if it was commonplace.

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Design notwithstanding, the search function seems to be held together with duct tape and prayer. It can look any kind of way, but I'd like to find objects I'm looking for without having to know the name of a specific shop or shirt first.

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People also need to stop putting up 30 pages of the same thing in different colors and patterns. There's HUDs for that.

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8 hours ago, Chase01 said:

I am with @Pamela Galli on this one. The devs did what they could to make that transition as seamless as possible, and in that they succeeded. While it may have resulted in some limitations of form and function, the MP by and large does the job.

To LL's credit, the method of listing items today is far easier then it was in in the past. The site is generally very responsive, and I can't recall ever having an issue receiving an item that I purchased. I know it does occur, but I'd be surprised if it was commonplace.

There are definitely loads of things the mp does right, and LL for that matter. I personally take absolutely no issue with the design of it, or layout if you will, because it IS streamlined and not at all that different from many ecommerce sites(then again I have been working with ecommerce for 20+ years now, so, I am quite familiar with its development and changes over the last two plus decades). Functionally, it's far better than it has been. There are still issues, but what site doesn't have them?(there isn't one, ftr..all sites do). The way it was implemented went as smoothly as one could possibly do so, given the steps necessary to implement it. A lot of the things some folks want to see changed would have had to happen long before we got to this stage. In other words, would've had to happen long before mp became xstreet, much less mp. Mistakes were made along the way, LL did mitigate some of them, ignored others..and now we're at a point that the vast majority of changes people would like to see, would not be possible without a complete shut down and overhaul, which would take ages given LL's current capabilities and desires. That's something no one really wants. So we take the minor code changes here and there when they happen, accept that this is how things are, make our voices heard when we're asked what we'd like to see...but generally speaking, we accept the mp as it is because we know most of the things we want changed are a lot more technically involved than LL will be with regards to the mp at this time. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

There are definitely loads of things the mp does right, and LL for that matter. I personally take absolutely no issue with the design of it, or layout if you will, because it IS streamlined and not at all that different from many ecommerce sites(then again I have been working with ecommerce for 20+ years now, so, I am quite familiar with its development and changes over the last two plus decades). Functionally, it's far better than it has been. There are still issues, but what site doesn't have them?(there isn't one, ftr..all sites do). The way it was implemented went as smoothly as one could possibly do so, given the steps necessary to implement it. A lot of the things some folks want to see changed would have had to happen long before we got to this stage. In other words, would've had to happen long before mp became xstreet, much less mp. Mistakes were made along the way, LL did mitigate some of them, ignored others..and now we're at a point that the vast majority of changes people would like to see, would not be possible without a complete shut down and overhaul, which would take ages given LL's current capabilities and desires. That's something no one really wants. So we take the minor code changes here and there when they happen, accept that this is how things are, make our voices heard when we're asked what we'd like to see...but generally speaking, we accept the mp as it is because we know most of the things we want changed are a lot more technically involved than LL will be with regards to the mp at this time. 

 

The majority of e-commerce sites are designed for responsive web design, just to throw that out there. SL has yet to join the era.

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On 1.8.2017 at 6:38 PM, Dakota Linden said:

Many of the issues that users have reported and continue to report, is because of the original SLX/XstreetSL system.

Linden Lab chose to create the Second Life Marketplace in a way that would bridge the old XstreetSL system.

I wish Dakota's post had been posted years earlier. It's so much easier for everybody to accept the situation when Linden Lab aknowledges the problems rather than try to gloss things over.

But that's water under the bridge of course.

 

On 1.8.2017 at 6:38 PM, Dakota Linden said:

The only way to address some of the issues would be with an entire rewrite of the code.

It'll have to be done sooner or later you know. This can't go on forever and even if we ignore the problems the outdated system causes buyers and sellers, by now you probably have to spend more resources on managing an unmanageable system than it would take to develop a new one.

 

On 1.8.2017 at 6:38 PM, Dakota Linden said:

This would mean 3+ years of new development, along with a loss of ALL of the current listings, sales history, ratings, etc.

Oh no, it's not that bad. Sansar has showed how dangerous it is to underestimate the time it takes to develop a new product but 3+ years, that's going a bit too far the other way. ;)

Data can be transferred of course. It's a huge job and requires careful planning and execution but it's doable.

 

On 2.8.2017 at 2:19 AM, DartAgain said:

Missing a step in there. XStreet was written in PHP (I know, I've seen the code), which was later rewritten in Ruby by LL, based on the Spree shopping cart.

I think that was a neccessary step.

I don't know if Ruby was the right choice, especially since LL didn't seem to have any programmers famiiar with the language, but php really isn't up to a task like this. Personally I would have looked at WebDNA first. That may not be a favorite among programmers more used to code lines than markup languages though. Besides, I'm not sure how well it would work for a store as big as MP.

 

21 hours ago, Chrismaky said:

Your instructor was very wise. The design of a site is extremely important. Because first impressions visually matter A LOT.

...

But that's not to say I don't agree with you as functionality is also important.

Good design always means good functionality.

Great design is not form over function, it's form and function in perfect harmony.

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7 hours ago, Chrismaky said:

People also need to stop putting up 30 pages of the same thing in different colors and patterns. There's HUDs for that.

Incorrect. What if I only want a dress in one color? What if I don't need a fatpack?

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11 minutes ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

Incorrect. What if I only want a dress in one color? What if I don't need a fatpack?

Drop down menus. Minimize that stuff. There's no need for so many pages of the same thing. That's just annoying af.

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3 minutes ago, Chrismaky said:

Drop down menus. Minimize that stuff. There's no need for so many pages of the same thing. That's just annoying af.

Except that there apparently is a need for it, otherwise it would not be so prevalent now would it?

I do not know what Marketplace stores you have been frequenting but you would have to have quite a great number of color variations to cause someone to have to go through 30 pages of listings.

Further, if you're basing that rather hyperbolic number on the default 12 items per page setting you really have no grounds to complain. Unless you have a very good reason not to do so you really should be using the 96 item per page setting for any search or store front with more than 96 items listed.

Finally, the practice of listing individual color options for an item - if applicable - may well be annoying to you but that does not mean it is annoying to everyone.

Your insistence in this thread that tings be made to look more modern is - in my opinion - misguided. The new design for the forum seems to be your go to example for quite a great deal despite the simple fact that other parts of the web end for Second Life have had minor tweaks and facelifts here and there over the years. No, the Marketplace does not look like something out of 2004 and - in my own opinion - the present visual design for these forums is a travesty.

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50 minutes ago, Arkanus Andel said:

Except that there apparently is a need for it, otherwise it would not be so prevalent now would it?

I do not know what Marketplace stores you have been frequenting but you would have to have quite a great number of color variations to cause someone to have to go through 30 pages of listings.

Further, if you're basing that rather hyperbolic number on the default 12 items per page setting you really have no grounds to complain. Unless you have a very good reason not to do so you really should be using the 96 item per page setting for any search or store front with more than 96 items listed.

Finally, the practice of listing individual color options for an item - if applicable - may well be annoying to you but that does not mean it is annoying to everyone.

Your insistence in this thread that tings be made to look more modern is - in my opinion - misguided. The new design for the forum seems to be your go to example for quite a great deal despite the simple fact that other parts of the web end for Second Life have had minor tweaks and facelifts here and there over the years. No, the Marketplace does not look like something out of 2004 and - in my own opinion - the present visual design for these forums is a travesty.

It's general search. Some stores having 50+ pages of the same thing. Older stores with primmy crap that tag their clothes under EVERYTHING so it will show up in every category. It's annoying even at 96 items per page. 

And wtf is wrong with how this forum looks? I can actually navigate easier since it's device responsive. I'm actually on my phone right now and loving it. Your opinion is more of a travesty. 

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5 hours ago, ChinRey said:

I think that was a neccessary step.

I don't know if Ruby was the right choice, especially since LL didn't seem to have any programmers famiiar with the language, but php really isn't up to a task like this. Personally I would have looked at WebDNA first. That may not be a favorite among programmers more used to code lines than markup languages though. Besides, I'm not sure how well it would work for a store as big as MP.

Disclaimer that I wasn't bashing the marketplace on the whole, it is an improvement from XStreet.

But if you really want to start a geek holy war, bring it! (kidding)

I only mentioned the rewrite to Ruby to point out that if there was some cruft left over from XStreet, after an LL rewrite, 2 major DB migrations, and 2 major iterations of Direct Delivery, that XStreet magic box cruft should be long gone and not affecting the current marketplace any longer. Any cruft remaining should be of LL's own making.

But here's the thing. XStreet wasn't built on a framework, while the current marketplace in Ruby was. It's always harder to maintain code based on a framework (and Rails expertise isn't fun or as common as PHP). If they'd stuck with PHP, it would have been easier to alter, although they'd have had to do more coding themselves. AND PHP is certainly up to the task, it's seen major improvements and speed increases since that time. Heavier sites than the marketplace use PHP at least as a front end tier with ease.

Never used WebDNA, can't speak to it.

The thing I miss is that XStreet did better historical data on sales for the merchant. And charts, must have sales charts! And if you reported a significant well written bug report to Apotheus he would toss you a couple thousand L$ privately and get it fixed within a reasonable timeframe.

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21 hours ago, Chrismaky said:

It's general search. Some stores having 50+ pages of the same thing. Older stores with primmy crap that tag their clothes under EVERYTHING so it will show up in every category. It's annoying even at 96 items per page. 

And wtf is wrong with how this forum looks? I can actually navigate easier since it's device responsive. I'm actually on my phone right now and loving it. Your opinion is more of a travesty. 

Again I have no idea what stores you've been visiting nor what items you've been running a search for but I have yet to run into such a thing. No building, clothing item, avatar modification/part or complete avatar could contain enough variations for over 50 pages of 'the same thing' at 96 items a page.

Tagging an item with several terms also has little effect outside of making that item appear in searches that include those terms. It does not cause the items to show up more than once in the same search.

What is wrong with how the forum looks you ask? It is designed for mobile devices and requires anyone with sight issues to enlarge the page/zoom in to even begin to read it, all the while the interface elements are shifted around or removed and placed into one of those awful hamburger menus.

Edited by Arkanus Andel
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