Project Bento Feedback Thread

[DS Diavolo]

These steps (short version) work best for me:

1. Import the MakeHuman character (best height: 185cm) with the opensim-rig (26 bones) to blender

2. Use the Avastar Transfer-Tool, choose Extended Rig, Repair Rig

3. Unbind from armature, delete the skeleton

4. Alter the location of the meshes (eyes and so on too) slightly (0.015) and apply

5, Add new Rig, extended-only rig

3. Go to the Appearence-Tab, select 'skeleton' and shorten the neck length (and the hands too, but that is another project), best for me to 34, so that the face-bones are in place.

4. Set bind pose and bind to armature (bones).

5. Export with Avastar

Yes, I made animations too, but this is not that easy, because teeth and tongue have to be weighted manually.

 

[Cathy Foil]

I appreciate your enthusiasm and passion Mel I really do.  I am trying my best to take that into account and not be insulted.

I been actively involved with Bento for over a year now.  If you were to add up all the hours I spent working on Bento, for no pay mind you, it probably add up to several months worth of working full time 40 hours a week.  Matrice has probably worked several more months of working full time on Bento than I have.  Amazingly he is more up for making changes than I am.

While I am not as enthusiastic about making more changes I have already stated that I am not against them.

[Cathy Foil]

Matrice,
Wouldn't the simplest solution be to add a new child bone to the mFaceBone and have it translate up and down instead of the mFaceJaw bone?  This way the mFaceJaw bone can stay in one place.

I know adding a new bone at this point will be next to impossible but there has been quite a bit of passion and good arguments for needing to improve the jaw by several people.

Perhaps we can find a bone to repurpose of sacrifice one of the new attachment points seeing as they apparently cause as much lag as bones we rig to do.

[Mel Vanbeeck]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

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Hmmm, In my video, where I take a non human head, and make it work with a system made for human heads, I had little to no problems with those variations working almost perfectly with the animations I designed for them. Granted, I didn't show expressions, but at best I would need to make a few different versions of an expression to match everything fairly well. Which do you think is harder tho, to make a dog's head work with this system made for human heads, or a human's head with a system made for human heads? Which do you think is going to have more problems?

Never mind that it wasn't a human head, you were showing a model which has overrided all translation effects from sliders, which is the entire source of the problem. It was irrelevant to the discussion of making the sliders function as they were intended to function.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

Is compatibility across designers now possible with most of their parts? I also think you are making many more assumption than can possibly be assumed. As far as weights, I haven't looked at them or tested them very much because I'm mostly doing animals right now. That said, I have every bit of confidence that the Machinimatrix team has done a decent job, and ....... that despite this, I'll likely tweak them anyways, as I expect every artist that is decent at weighting would.

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Some, yes, but basically the weights of the example head should represent the best case scenario for the balance of head slider/animation control. Those are the weights that were used to configure exactly how the sliders would scale and translate, what path they would follow, etc. In other words, that is how it was configured when the designer had full control over every element of the design. After Bento is set in stone, though, those original parameters are not changeable. Animators don't even have access to bone scale. What I've shown is that what is supposed to be the best case scenario doesn't actually work properly — not even close. Yes, you can disable half of the features and get something that works on a smaller feature set, but that's not what one would normally want out of a finished product.

It is fine if it turns out that the facial sliders are just too complicated and they just need to be removed or substantially scaled back. If it gets to that point, that's another way to go. Releasing it with features that don't work, though, I should not need to explain that this is something usually avoided like the plague in the professional world. Think about Steve Jobs presenting the first Apple computer and it fails to say "Hello". That very nearly happened, but they scrambled at the last minute and managed to make it work the way they said it would.

[Pirschjaeger Fassbinder]

I tested some of my wing and tail meshes to see if they would resize when avatar height is changed, and it seems like they both remain the same size regardless of avatar height. I even created a new mesh and rigged it to the default wing positions. I don't know if this is supposed to be this way or not. I may have to create different sized tails and wings, which would be fine if I was just selling the wings. 

[Siddean Munro]

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Matrice Laville wrote:

To create Translation enabled animations (Avastar):

* Ensure that you animate the (green) control bones.

* To get translations to work properly you must unlock the Control bones in the tool shelf:

   Rigging pannel -> Config Section -> Bone Constraints -> Unlock Control Bone Loc

* And when you export you must enable the option "use translations"

 

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For anyone else having trouble with this, you have to go to the control bone groups panel and enable the group of bones that you want to move, as well as unlocking the control bone locations.



Detach your mesh beforehand and reattach it afterwards. Make sure your bones are reset before you reattach your mesh (select all, Alt R) If you select a bone and it doesn't move, select again (there are 2 bones, one can be moved, which moves the other one)

 

Also, (for Matrice) why do some of the bones go in the opposite directions to the control bones? I can work around this, but it's only some of them that seem to do it.



 

 

 

[Siddean Munro]

I've uploaded my first translation based animation, to some success - does anyone who knows more than I do know why this may be happening?



Some joint seems to be getting stuck in the wrong position after i play the anim. Nothing fixes it except logging out of SL. I've tried overriding with other animations, tried character tests and it just sticks there until I relog and the face goes back to it's neutral setting. 

 

[edit] This animation should only be touching the eyebrows but when I first activate it. something happens to the mouth which does not reset unless I log out of SL.



Could this be related to the thing that stops the sliders from working when you upload a mesh with joint positions enabled even though you haven't touched the affected joints? (ie: if I move the eyelid joints to a pivot in the centre of the eyeball, the chin and jaw sliders stop working even though I haven't touched them)

[Mel Vanbeeck]

Translation animations are not like normal animations where the effects vanish once the translation stops, since there is no background animation with the joint in its original position to draw the bone back home.

Unless Tapple Gao's JIRA is accepted which is requesting relative positioning for translation animations, the translation animations you are using will override any bone positioning from shape slider changes and leave the bones wherever they are when the animation stops. If you have exported the mesh without moving any of the sliders in Avastar, without using custom joint positions, and you are wearing the default shape, you can predict where the bone needs to go back to, but unless all three of those cases are true you won't be able to anticipate what the "home" position for the bone is, since that's a moving target. As it is, I think the only bones human head designers will be able to safely use translation animations on are the tongue bones for two reasons

1. shape sliders will not affect the tongue bones with translations (after the next set of changes are available).
2. the tongue is generally hidden when at rest, so any misalignments should be concealed.

Other than that, there is a compatibility problem between shape sliders and translation animations for any bones that are translated by shape sliders.

It's possible that the jaw will also be translation friendly, but I'll need to see the next iteration before I can say that for sure.

[Polymath Snuggler]

@Siddean ~ the solution to this is to play a constant loop of a priority 0  animation of the bones in their default positions.  Leave this animation playing, and play other animations overtop it.  Kind of hacky but it will get the bones to revert to their original positions.

Edit: To clarify~  you will need an animation with the default bone position specified as (at least one) keyframe for every bone in the actual animation ( .anim  ) file.  By default bones not moving at all makes that bone not moving creates zero keyframes for position information for that bone.

2nd Edit: I just realized this may be easier said than done to create with standard Avastar tools.  I'm no expert on that, perhaps someone else could offer some insight into how to do this with Avastar.   If it's not possible I can probably create a standardized file to pass around with my Max exporter~ but it's still got some bugs to work out...

[wherorangi]

over on Inara Pey blog is the report on the latest Bento inworld meeting. Here: https://modemworld.me/2016/06/25/project-bento-user-group-update-16-with-audio/

in the text was this comment from a person:

"All jaw related sliders do no longer translate the jaw except the jaw angle slider; the jaw bone has its default position now right below the faceRoot. The jaw angle slider still moves like crazy but I believe it is not an issue any longer. Actually, I propose to remove the jaw angle slider, because it only is needed for the jaw angle. I bet nobody will miss that slider"

 

i just want to put here that I will miss it, and I think quite a few others as well

Jaw Angle helps to soften or tighten our system head profile. I soften my face using this slider

[Whirly Fizzle]

Seconded.

I also use the jaw angle slider.

 

[Siddean Munro]

Removing the jaw angle slider is a silly idea. They're assuming everyone will use a mesh head. No, leave the sliders alone I say! 

[Catwa Clip]

Since bento is being created and released by LL. Costumers would expect something similar to mesh body results [animations/shape sliders working together]. for example sit animations can work for all kinds of mesh bodie's with all kinds of shapes. but smile animation would never have that result for mesh heads.

So basecally i will be able to sell a mesh head and say actually you can modify shape sliders they will work yay! BUT please use my shape if u want to use the animations!!

So the costumer would think wait i purchased a head that has active shape sliders and has animations but can never be used together! why would i purchase both if i will end up using one! so here is the trick. someone help me explain to them that when rigging a head that rigging can be used for both but both can not be used together! MUST buy both but MUST use one ONLY!! i can not explain it to my self so complicated to be explained.

I am expecting this FAQ: can u sell cheaper head without an active shape sliders because i can never use those sliders!

[Matrice Laville]

I proposed to remove the lad definitions for the bento bones from the slider. This affects only custom meshes. I am sorry that my remark on the meeting resulted in such a big misunderstanding.

But to make this clear: I am against removing the slider definitions. I believe this slider can help to customize the skeleton without need to define a joint position. Forget about the shape changes for a moment. Just look at the joint position changes:



 

The Jaw angle sliders moves the jaw pivot along the z axis. You can take advantage of this for your custom mesh. You can place the pivot along the z axis before you bind your mesh to the skeleton. This avoids to introduce a joint position offset. The downside of this approach is: You need to advise your customers that changing the jaw angle might result in unwanted distortions. But then its still the user who decides if they want those distortions.

The only other alternative that i can see here is to add another bone as a child of the Jaw that can be used to define the jaw angle.

Some have proposed to use the lower teeth bones for this purpose (weight the teeth to the jaw bone). But then we no longer have the ability to shift the mouth relative to the jaw and the chin (shift mouth slider):



 

So it has to be decided:

 

1. Is the jaw angle slider so helpful for shaping custom meshes that it rectifies the introduction of one more face bone ?
2. Is the slider so useless that it rectifies to remove its influence on the bento bones (but keep fully functional on system heads) ?
3. Is the current behavior of the slider acceptable as long as it is clear that its main purpose is to adjust the joint and not to adjust the shape ?

 

[wherorangi]

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Matrice Laville wrote:

I am sorry that my remark on the meeting resulted in such a big misunderstanding. 

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is not a big misunderstanding

is a big not explaining yourself before shooting stuff into the wind

[Matrice Laville]

I thought it was clear what i mean when i stated that. And since nobody complained i believe that it was either irrelevant, or overlooked, or accepted and fully understood. So i had no reason to add more info at that time.

You where at the meeting?
You could have asked back.
I would have answered right away and clarified.

[Mel Vanbeeck]

Anyone thinking Matrice's proposed change would have any effect on the default avatar's blend shape deformations just has a fundamental misunderstanding of what project Bento is. There's no fault on Matrice's part for failing to explain that.

If it comes to sacrificing the functionality of that slider vs. having it function as-is, there is no question that this slider needs to be disabled for Bento, though. The disruptive effect of making any mouth animations malfunction is far more of a problem than not being able to tighten or loosen your chin. These models will be created by your favorite designers, so theoretically the chin should already look pretty nice.

Yes, it is possible to leavea it as-is and then try to tell customers that in order for your mouth animations to look right they need to set the jaw angle to X setting, but realistically that will only get through to a certain percentage of customers, with the remaining (more than half) never realizing that the gasp animation looks so odd because they changed something they shouldn't have. There shouldn't be any slider which has the kind of impact that the jaw angle slider has on animations.

If some other bone can not be added or substituted, then 100% that slider needs to be disabled. Some businesses can get by with minimal time required for customer support. This would put that possibility completely out of the picture for a Bento head creator.

[Catwa Clip]

I though that the bento project is being created for mesh heads only. Why do i see some are talking about system heads sliders!

[wherorangi]

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Matrice Laville wrote:

I thought it was clear what i mean when i stated that. And since nobody complained i believe that it was either irrelevant, or overlooked, or accepted and fully understood. So i had no reason to add more info at that time.

You where at the meeting?

You could have asked back.

I would have answered right away and clarified.

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is that it was reported. and has now been disseminated to a wider audience other than the creatives involved. People who arent in the creative group as you are, go off what is actually said, not what was meant to be said

that it was reported as said at a LL-sponsored meet, gives what is said at these meets greater credence to the wider audience, even tho was said by you and not a Linden

so I came here to say what I did. Just in case a Linden also takes what was said literally, and never guessed what it was that you meant to say

thanks for your since explanation tho. I much appreciative of this (:

 

[wherorangi]

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Catwa Clip wrote:

I though that the bento project is being created for mesh heads only. Why do i see some are talking about system heads sliders!

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thats the thing. It isnt just about mesh heads

[Siddean Munro]

Agreed. In my testing, the jaw angle slider does pretty much nothing to my mesh. Most of the jaw is weighted to the chin bone, as this is the one that seems to controls jaw width, chin angle, double chin etc. Jaw angle does nothing but make the lower half of the face move a fraction of a millimetre. However I have the lower teeth completely weighted to the jawbone, which, with this slider movement, is a serious issue. Behold:

https://i.gyazo.com/e44405a8777ad071cdf688769b63fa55.gif

 https://gyazo.com/3b601b9f54b288828b552c483e18e544

I can't imagine a situation where I want my jaw to pop out of the bottom of my face like that, or where I want to walk around with my mouth hanging open. I think that disabling this specific slider for mesh heads wouldn't have a huge impact on face shape, since all the chin sliders still work (is that right Matrice?), and it would prevent many issues.

 

 

[Mel Vanbeeck]

You are mistaken in what sort of distinction is being made here. When it comes to heads, Bento is purely about replacement mesh heads. Just like when it comes to bodies, Bento is purely about replacement mesh bodies. There is nothing in project Bento that affects anything other than these types of third-party attachments. The default avatar mesh and its shape slider behaviors will not be affected in any way.

People discussing the feature set in the project Bento meetings would be wasting everyone's time if they stopped to explain the basics of project Bento before proceeding with describing each new revision. If somone is relaying the content of these meetings to a ley audience, then it's on them to properly explain any relevant context (though they may have covered this in a prior post on the same subject).

[Matrice Laville]

Recommendation: Weight the lower teeth to the mFaceTeethLower bone and not to the jaw bone!

If you decide to weight the teeth to the jaw bone and not to the lower teeth bone then your teeth will end up in odd places when you utilise the sliders. Its not only the jaw angle slider that is affected. The jaw angle slider is in focus just because its the only one which moves the jaw pivot along the z axis relative to the mFaceRoot.

Again: The most important task of the jaw angle slider in regards to Bento is that creators can shift the jaw bone angle along the z axis to match it with their head creation without need to introduce joint position offsets for this purpose. We can discuss if this is a helpful feature or not.

The pro/con list (edited):

Pro:

• Can be used to move the z offset of the jaw without need to define a joint position
  (Could become pointless if https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-20049 gets implemented).
  
• Can be used to make small adjustments to throat region (not very apparent though)

Con:

• When used, then users can unintentionally distort face animations
  (User need to be informed, could lead to customer support issues)

 

[Mel Vanbeeck]

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-20049 was accepted, so the pro you listed is not needed. We will be able to freely define the joint position that best suits our meshes without worry. This design choice will be completely meaningless if the jaw angle slider takes that joint and moves it to a completely different position, though.

It feels fairly odd to list the con as "when used wrong", since there's no way to really use it wrong. It is part of the rig whether you want it or not, and it is the end user who decides where to put their jaw angle slider. If they use it at all, things will go horribly wrong for them. So it's more like "when used, users will horribly distort face animations". And there is no pro.

[BabyGia]

Yes they will understand it . It is like in some bodies that you have to have the fat at 0 in order for the neck to fit, everybody got it, you just worry over nothing