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It's really no wonder LL has a habit of adding new features without consulting the userbase first. They introduced full html5 support on media prims a month or two ago and not a peep was said about it. Smoothest update I ever saw. I see that and think "man...we could have had new bones by now "

Reminds me a lot of why I left SL for five or 6 years :/

i think I can do just about everything I need with the new skeleton setup

 

 

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Yeah I've pretty much given up moaning about the mesh. I've decided on creating plastic deck chairs, rigging them to Bento and selling them. Plastic chairs don't have shoulder muscles to deform and breasts that move with the upper arm:-)

JIRA reminds me too much of programming days I'd rather forget. Half a dozen open issues sitting in your queue and being ignored because you're overworked, understaffed and don't have time to deal with them because you're busy dealing with the MDs priority requests to change the spelling of a word on a barely used menu. It needs the CEO to take note of and understand the issues not the poor little code monkeys who've been given a 1920s typewriter and are expected to spellcheck the Tempest. CEOs look at what the public says publicly on forums as they are always worried about company image.

I don't really have much of a problem with the bones of bento as such. It's a step in the right direction but I personally would like to see some more bone defs on places like the ribs so that breathing can be properly simulated instead of moving the entire upper torso which if auto rigging is used will also prevent the sides from deforming with upper arm movement. But to do that we'd also have to have abdominal defs to tie down stomach movement which could actually help with deformation at the hips when the legs bend. Things like that would help whether the mesh is an Ogre, a Fairy or to move the gills of a Three legged, Twelve Toed Chameleon Swamp Scragg from the planet Buttpucker (We might as well ignore the toes as SL does but that extra leg might be a problem to animate:)

The problem is of course how the bone defs are defined and presented as collision volumes to the Havok engine and how they are stored in the asset SQL database. Which AFAIK are enumerated 16 bit values that need headers changing and code recompiling at the server end. In other words actual work on the servers themselves by the lindens themselves as that code is not in the public domain like the viewer is. HTML5 on a media prim is a pure client modification and doesn't involve 200 pages of server change request documentation and 3 hour committee meetings with sysops reluctant to make any changes. So what we've been given is actually a massive advance in that respect as not many people knew about the more flexible NoSQL Document Databases back when the system was designed.

So that said onwards and upwards with the Plastic chairs.

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Well Gaia, there is a lot of frustration in the SL community with the way things are going, and you are receiving the frustration that is ment for the LLs. 

But from your side also, you are standing in front of them, explaining their position. Well, unless you are on the payroll for this job, please stand aside and let them explain themselves. I was exepacting LLs to come in and say a few things here, but nothing from their side yet.

Now regarding the whole system and the way you imagine it, with all these mesh characters going around, well, it seems like a lag hell for me. You see, there are so many mesh creations of low quality that are going around in SL, creating a lot of lag. Since the whole mesh body thing started I can't even go shoping, not to mention clubing. 

Besides this, it is really boring and time consuming just to make an outfit to go out socializing. You have so many mesh parts and huds to handdle, and it is going to get even more time consuming with the mesh heads and the animations for them. Imagine, mesh body and hud, mesh head and hud, mesh clothes and hud, mesh hair and hud, mesh eyes and hud, body animation hud, face animation hud, skin applier hud, makeup applier hud... LLs should have come in already since some time now, and put some order in this chaos. Which way I don't know, but for sure there was something that could have been done to administer all this before it became so chaotic as it is now. (for example, a system like omega, could have been introduced in the first place, not waiting for one system to dominate the market, I hope you understand what I mean)

And of cource, all the above mean lots of expenses. A friend of mine wanted to start in SL the other week, but when we calculated that she needed about 8000 lindens just to get an initial outfit, she dropped out without second thought calling me crazy for playing this game. Now, call me cheap if you want, but me also I find it sometimes quite expensive to keep up with it. Meanwhile, it is so much cheaper to create a nice avatar in RPG games, why such a difference?

Apart from this friend of mine that she dropped out just the first week, two friends of mine from rl that we started together have dropped out last year, as it became to expensive and boring for them. And I can't say that I ve met lots of newbies. SL is becoming more and more a lonely place for me.

Lets face it, Avatar2, is already here, and it came bit by bit. First hands and feet, then boobs, then body, now head. And we had to pay a lot for each bit. So LLs, the least they can do is to come in before it becomes even worse and try to administere the situation somehow. And since they are determined that they will not do anything with the standard avatar for combatibility issues (hudge mistake in my opinion), then they have to do something for the better combatibility and customization of the various parts of the mesh avatar. 

I know that SL is mainly a US thing, and it is in the culture of the US to trust markets for their self determination, but some kind of regulation and adminiistration is always required. Look what happened with the deregulation of the derivatives market and the bubble of the US mortgage market. Chaos in the whole western world. This is what SL reminds me of!

So I think it is really nessesary that LLs will step in and adress the following issues asap.

1. quality of the meshes being uploded regarding the lagg they create.

2. combatibility and customization of the mesh avatar, making it fast and easy

3. lower the cost of the mesh avatar 

4. introduce the mesh avatar to begginers

Again Gaia, I am writting all these as a responce to you, but I would love to receive some feedback from LLs also..

Sorry if some frustration was pointed at you while it shouldn't.

 

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Not to put any pressure on the Machinimatrix team, but do you have any idea when the Avastar version with the new collision bones will be available?

 

LL just updated the viewer, and I can't really do much until I have a working skeleton. Heck, there are jiras I still need to create, but I can't really give test content to test these things until I have a fully working avatar, as well as testing these new features.

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Right up front, MicheloudIgnatio, This is not aimed all at you. You were just a conviented post to reply to.

 

People, get a grip. This entire thread was created to discuss and give feedback for Project Bento.  Remember that?  New bones, possibilities for improved animations, all of the various mechanics and considerations to make that happen?

Now where in that was there anything about classic vs mesh avatars, clothing of any kind, the dog ate my laundry, or Oh My God I fell through my Mesh stairs.

Project Bento. Bones. Skeleton. Rigging as related to animations. Weighting as related to animations.

As much as I have disagreed with some of LL's actions in the past, in this case they are perfectly correct to ignore everything except issues regarding Bento in this thread.

Honestly if they deleted all posts regarding the mesh vs classic avatar and the mythical 'Avatar-2' they would be justified.

Baby steps people. Project Bento. Skeleton. If it's not directly about that, it needs to be somewhere else.

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ReneeThesium wrote:

 

Honestly if they deleted all posts regarding the mesh vs classic avatar and the mythical 'Avatar-2' they would be justified.

Baby steps people. Project Bento. Skeleton. If it's not directly about that, it needs to be somewhere else.

Although, for the most part, I agree with you, I still think talk about a new default avatar is warrented. What I don't like seeing is the negative speculation. If a creator is worried about something, then get in there and test it, and then you can talk about what you see. Negative speculation is just pointless.

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  • Lindens

There's a new build out for the Bento Project Viewer. You should get it automatically if you run a previous version of the project viewer. This build includes additions and a few changes to the face bones, and increases the hind limbs to 4 joints each instead of the previous 3. Along with the skeleton updates, there is a lot of work in progress on support for the sliders. For example, if you do edit shape on a suitably rigged mesh avatar, you can now tweak settings such as nose length or width, or eye spacing and tilt.

Along with the viewer update, we have also changed the bone definitions on the aditi simulators, so uploaded meshes and animations will now be updated against the same set of bones.

There are two mesh models available that can be used with the sliders - see http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Bento_Testing for current information on supported models.

This should put us at the end of significant skeleton changes. There might still be minor tweaks to support additional slider work, or to address reported bugs that may be related to the spine joints.

The reason we've been having this test period on aditi is to help make sure we have the right skeleton before we go live on the main grid. Please help us by making models that exercise the new joints! I'm not sure if there has been any content creator testing so far for the spine joints or the new hind limbs - we would encourage anyone interested in those areas to try them out and let us know how it goes.

We will have a Bento User Group meeting tomorrow at the usual time - please feel free to come by and ask questions, or show off your work!

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The new Bento project viewer (v5.0.0.313150) emits the following warnings about the new shape visual parameters:

2016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 12016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 22016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 42016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 102016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 112016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 142016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 152016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 182016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 202016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 242016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 252016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 272016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 352016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 1552016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 1852016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 5052016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 5062016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 5172016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 6292016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 6502016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 6532016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 6562016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 6592016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 6632016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 6652016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 7582016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 7642016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 7652016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 7962016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 7992016-03-31T07:32:03Z WARNING: createVisualParams: could not link driven params for wearable Henri's shape id: 1105

Note that the warning about visual param 1105 (a physics param, so it's not quite as important as the rest) exists in all viewers, but all the others are new, and do impact the newly introduced "sliders" parameters...

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Hi, Vir

I downloaded the new viewer and made a quick test. I found there is one important entry missing in the lad file for the new face bones (marked in red below):

 

  <param     id="655"     group="1"     name="Head Size"     label="Head Size"     wearable="shape"     edit_group="shape_head"     label_min="Small Head"     label_max="Big Head"     show_simple="true"     value_min="-.25"     value_max=".10">      <param_skeleton>		  




























<bone name="mSkull" scale="1 1 1" offset="0 0 0.1" />

 

 

Should you build a new viewer in the next few days then could you please add the red definitions as shown above? Then the new bones scale correct with the head size. Thanks.

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When I import female_2016_03_22.dea into Blender without the two amature options (fix leaf bones, find bone chains), the mesh avatar's right hand and bones aren't showing. The male_2016_03_22.dae has no such issue. With the two amature options checked, the female mesh seems to be imported correctly.

I'm new to Blener, is that normal or something isn't quite right in female_2016_03_22.dea? When import a colllad rig into Blender, do you need to enable the two amature options?



 

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There is indeed something wrong here. I suspect the Blender Collada importer has a flaw because actually all bones are there but depending on how you imported the skeleton they do not appear in pose mode.

Here is how i could import the skeleton:

 

  1. Restart Blender (Important)
  2. Import the Collada file with the options set:
    1. Fix Leaf Bones: enabled
    2. Find Bone Chains: enabled
    3. Minimum Chain Length: 0
  3. Now you should see the bones also in pose mode

You can read more about what these options mean in the release notes of Blender 2.73 (first chapter):

https://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Ref/Release_Notes/2.73/Addons

i hope that helps

cheers,
Gaia

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