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Pamela Galli

"Select" merchants

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Nothing in my post is a strawman argument~ not even close.  My point was~ and still is prepare for unfairness in open markets.  It always happens.

Anyhow ~ I'm off to go do something productive~ I've got nothing more of value to contribute to this conversation.

 

You all have fun arguing with the obvious trolly purple cookiemonster.

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ChinRey wrote:


Jacob Cagney wrote:

"then along comes LL and slaps us in the face with FREE advertising of "select" competitors - who you gotta blow to get a gig like that lol"


Oh, I overlooked that one. Yes, that was thoughtless.

 

In case there are still any misundestandings here:
  1. At least one of the six participants has clearly indicated they didn't know about the sale in advance.
  2. One of the participants only made a barely half-hearted attempt to do something with the sale. It's clearly nto something they asked for but rather something that dropped onto their head and they couldn't decline.
  3. None of the six participating stores show any sign of having prepared for the sale in advance. Quite the contrary, their sale displays show every signs of being rush jobs.

In other words: the six stores that participated in LL's publicity stunt, had not asked for it and did not know about it in advance. At least one of them doesn't even seem to have wanted it very much.

I am sure anyone selected could have easily said "no thank you" and it is very possible that some did, and we just haven't heard about it.

It also kinda shows that Linden Lab didn't set out in advance to have some grand promotion.  It might have been done quickly if they were watching metrics and saw that the holiday slump for marketplace sales was already in full swing.

Again, all of the chatter about the promotion, other than it happened, is speculation.We do not know when they made the decision to have the promotion and we do not know what the criteria that was used to choose those sellers who ended up getting promoted.

Personally, it doesn't really matter to me at all.  The promotion has had no negative impact on me, personally, so I have no issue with the specifics surrounding it.

 

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There are two very distinct reasons why "Giant Up-Updates" are sent out:

1. Someone pulled the trigger too soon, or set a hard date and was not willing to flex it .. or in some fashion established exterior and unrelated deadlines, or

2. We missed a critical thing that should have been caught, wasn't (for whatever reason) and now HAS to be rolled out or really bigger badder things will happen.

We've been through both. I personally have been responsible for both.

I try like crazy to NEVER employ #1 as it really messes with customer confidence to turn out a known buggy product. Then when you can't defend the decision in any valid manner .. you look like a real doofus. I prefer not to be doofus in any form of appearance.

I have fallen victim to #2 for many reasons, none of which really matter to this discussion. Suffice to say I work hard to avoid #2 too.

The cutover from XStreet to Marketplace was without a doubt the result of exterior meddling in the schedule. The fact that the entire XStreet structure was up and running for some time afterward, added to the many MANY valid objections and bug reports posted here and in JIRA about SLM, lead to the only reasonable conclusion: It didn't go so well.

Here's the bottom line for me Jacob: When they spring something on us (like the recent email promotion for only a few select Merchants) .. it turns out wrong. When my experience and understanding lead to me to realize there are speedbumps ahead, I will do my best to call them out and help suggest a course around them. If you choose to see it as me slamming or bad-mouthing people .. that's your view.

But I dang sure won't sit idly by, letting known problems go unaddressed .. especially not when those problems impact me, a project in which I'm involved or invested .. and when options exist that would completely avoid the obstacles.

In short, I'd rather think first .. then act with a bit of an idea what I'm doing. I find it preferable to always RE-acting to a situation that didn't really need to BE a "situation" in the first place.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:


Jacob Cagney wrote:

1. What do you mean by 'adjustment'? 

2. How do you know it didn't help the sellers who were promoted in the ad and email? 

1. Adjustment means any changes in operation, pricing, performance, formatting or external activities that influence the behavior and dynamics of the Marketplace. Sending out email promotions is one such example. Changing the number and presentation format of the Enhancement Ads shown atop each page would be another example.

2. Taken from the implications of your first post. You intimated that those included in the promotion email had probably (possibly?) suffered some from being included. If not .. cool beans. If so ..

This is what I am not getting.  There hasn't been a change in the Marketplace that affects the behavior and dynamics of the system.

Sending out email promotions by private companies is done ALL the time. I get emails from Amazon all the time telling me about some app, item, book, movie, whatever, that is available for sale on the website.

Should we be complaining to Amazon that their email promotions are unfair because not every seller was included?

The comments I made about the included sellers suffering was in reply to the possibility that those sellers would be or might be treated badly because of the comments regarding favoritism in the selection process.

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Jacob Cagney wrote:

It also kinda shows that Linden Lab didn't set out in advance to have some grand promotion.  It might have been done quickly if they were watching metrics and saw that the holiday slump for marketplace sales was already in full swing. 

How in blue blazes does picking six select Merchants for a one-time email promotion add anything of measurable value to the Marketplace metrics? If THAT was their goal .. OMG we need a REALLY long talk with their thinkers and planners.

(Sorry .. but that one just doesn't even pass the sniff test .. from 10 feet away)

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ChinRey wrote:


Jacob Cagney wrote:

So let me ask you, in what way did Linden Lab offend you with this promotion?


I'm not offended at all, I'm worried. This was clearly a very poor decision by the company that is in charge of Second Life's and Sansar's future. They should have known better.

 

Jacob Cagney wrote:

Since you really cannot speak for anyone other than yourself,


No, I actually can speak for others than myself here. Any business who learns about this incident or even hears rumours about it, will loose a little bit of confidence in Linden Lab and be a little bit more reluctant to enter any kind of busniness partnership with them.

Why are you worried? This is what I am trying to understand.  What exactly is the issue with a promotion to try to generate traffic for the Marketplace?

Please provide a list of all of the people that you are speaking on behalf of, I would like to contact them directly and ask them for their opinion regarding why they have lost confidence in Linden Lab over a promotion designed to generate traffic to a web site that Linden Lab owns.

 

 

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Jacob Cagney wrote:


Darrius Gothly wrote:


Jacob Cagney wrote:

1. What do you mean by 'adjustment'? 

2. How do you know it didn't help the sellers who were promoted in the ad and email? 

1. Adjustment means any changes in operation, pricing, performance, formatting or external activities that influence the behavior and dynamics of the Marketplace. Sending out email promotions is one such example. Changing the number and presentation format of the Enhancement Ads shown atop each page would be another example.

2. Taken from the implications of your first post. You intimated that those included in the promotion email had probably (possibly?) suffered some from being included. If not .. cool beans. If so ..

This is what I am not getting.  There hasn't been a change in the Marketplace that affects the behavior and dynamics of the system.

Sending out email promotions by private companies is done ALL the time. I get emails from Amazon all the time telling me about some app, item, book, movie, whatever, that is available for sale on the website.

Should we be complaining to Amazon that their email promotions are unfair because not every seller was included?

The comments I made about the included sellers suffering was in reply to the possibility that those sellers would be or might be treated badly because of the comments regarding favoritism in the selection process.

Well .. if you did complain to Amazon that their promotion was unfair .. they would likely reply with a link to the promotional offer you received beforehand, complete with pricing, placement and distribution details. The fact that you ignored or didn't see it .. that's on you.

This? Weren't the same thing.

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Darrius Gothly wrote:


Jacob Cagney wrote:


Darrius Gothly wrote:

(replying to myself here because I prefer offering solutions, not just gripes)

The Linden Lab imprimatur on a marketing campaign has immense power and value. Finding your name included in an email that came from a Linden Lab account is a mark of status and accomplishment that many Merchants both deserve and can afford.

Having access to that level of marketing power would be a sure-fire way for someone to break out of the minor leagues and really gain a toehold in with the Big Names.

So wouldn't it make sense to offer a Linden Lab "Recommended" marketing campaign that is
open to all
, with a
price commensurate with the value
offered?

First of all, it has already been established that there was no "price" involved.  No one had to pay to be a part of the Promotion.  So how would you price the value of the promotion?

Second, as outlined in my previous reply in this thread, do you seriously want content promotion to be "open to all" including those who allegedly sell copybotted or copyrighted content?

Third, if Linden Lab is trying to generate interest in the Marketplace, don't you think that the email campaign should highlight some of the best and brightest sellers/creators instead of the botton of the barrel stuff? (not saying anyone specifically is bottom of the barrel, just pointing out the folly of the claims that any promotion should be "open to all").

Fourth, alluding to a "Linden Lab Recommended" campaign, based on the vocal outrage in this thread, I am sure that any tagging of items as "Linden Lab Recommended" will result in just as much dirt kicking and crying about how it "isn't fair" because someone's items weren't picked.

I think you again misunderstand me.

First of all, the "Price" is open to valuation the same as any advertising campaign. How did LL set the prices for Enhancements? No clue here .. but obviously they were able to arrive at some sort of value. And apparently people are willing to pay it. So they didn't go THAT wrong. I'll trust in them to work their magic again and set a reasonable price for an ad campaign that has the impact and value of a Linden Lab approved email promotion.

Second, absolutely!! Anyone selling illegal, stolen or just plain wrong content VERY MUCH SHOULD make themselves widely known and visible to Linden Lab. That way they can quickly and decisively stomp them flat. Done!

Third, Market Dynamics. Those with the highest quality, best selling, most profitable products will by the nature of their success also have the resources to pay top dollar for quality marketing. If someone is willing to spend real money in quantity sums to advertise junk? It's their money, their decision, and their loss. And they most likely won't make that mistake twice. The stuff that is shown in the promotional materials? The first few folks that look at it .. maybe even buy it .. will quickly rank it so poorly that no one on the entire Grid will fall into the sandtrap. (Did I mention Market Dynamics yet?)

Fourth, the vocal outrage is precisely because the opportunity wasn't available to all. If the campaign WERE open to all, the most vocal griping would be about it being too expensive. To which the majority of us would respond "poor baby". I seriously doubt there would be outcries of foul play if it was something everyone could attain .. only if they could afford.

1. Listing Enhancements prices were already pretty much set when Linden Lab took over.  You would have to talk to Apotheus to find out what metrics he used in deciding the original prices.

2. So you honestly believe that someone selling copybotted content should be freely allowed to participate in a Linden Lab sponsored promotion of their products? And 2 seconds after the emails hit users in-boxes, people would be threatening to sue Linden Lab for partnering with content stealers.

3. Again, no one paid for the promotion. Why do you keep harping on "paying for promotion" when NO ONE PAID!?  If Linden Lab went to the 6 sellers and said "Pay us 500,000 lindens and we will email every user advertising your products" then yeah, I could see the outrage, but they didn't.  This was not, in any way, shape, or form, a paid promotion. Regardless of whether the selected merchants got something of value for it, they didn't pay for it.

4. I am beginning to see the issue. You are upset because everyone wasn't given the opportunity to pay into the promotion that wasn't paid for with money.

We do not know what criteria Linden Lab used, so please tell me how you know for a fact that every seller didn't have the opportunity?

There are 2 things that this thread keeps coming back to:

1. The promotion wasn't an Open Call promotion

2. Not everyone was included in the selected group

So my question is, so what? Other than outraged user perception, the promotion has had ZERO impact on anyone other than the selected group.

No one can show that they lost sales because of the promotion. Hell, we haven't even heard from the selected group saying that their sales increased because of the promotion. As far as we know, there was ZERO value, of any kind, in the promotion.

No one can show that they lost customers because of the promotion.

No one can show that they were barred or hindered from having a sale on their items for the holidays because of the promotion.

No one can show that they were barred or hindered from having their own promotions.

The bottom line is that everyone complaining about the promotion ends up, at the core, offended or upset because they themselves were not included. 

That is just petty.

 

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ChinRey wrote:


Jacob Cagney wrote:

Except, as has already been established, no one "purchased" anything.

Oh yes. Every merchant who has items listed on MP purchases a distribution service from Linden Lab and are entitled by law to the same level of service provided of course that they're dealings are on proprotionally equal terms. In that regard you can not reagrd this sale isolated from the overall service or lack thereoff LL provides to their b2b cusotmers through the Marketplace.

First of all, no one purchases a distribution service. Items that are sold for more than 10 lindens have a 5% commission paid by the seller to pay for the upkeep of the system.

This is not a "distribution service".  Linden Lab doesn't charge to pass inventory from one person to another, or sellers in world would be paying to send other people items.

If you want to try to claim that the 5% commission is a "paid distribution service fee" then where is your outrage that users who sell everything for less than 10 lindens, or who give away free items don't have to pay this service fee while everyone else does?

 

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ChinRey wrote:


Jacob Cagney wrote:

This is what I do not understand.

So because you were offended by the promotion, (for what, not being included?), you are going to stop trying to grow and promote your SL business?

No, as I've already said, I'm not offended at all.

Jacob Cagney wrote:

Isn't that the proverbial, shooting yourself in the foot? Throwing the baby out with the bathwater? Cutting off your nose to spite your face? Taking your toys and going home?


No, it's called cutting your losses. Linden Lab does not seem to be capable of handling the Marketplace in a satisfactory way so I'm not willing to invest time and money in that market.

It's pure business. If you want any success at all, you have to weigh investment (in time and money), earning potential and risk towards each other. This incident and the reactions afterwards have seriously reduced the estimated earning potential and increased the risk level.

 

Edit: Forgot to mention the lack of response from Linden Lab, that's probably the biggest factor increasing the risk level for anybody who wants to deal with them.

Cutting your losses? What losses?

It costs ZERO money to list items on the Marketplace. 

So you are saying that you refuse to participate in something that is freely available because of some slight that you feel?

Personally, I do not expect anyone from Linden Lab to say something officially about the promotion.  The Terms of Service gives them the right to have promotions like this without or without notice to the sellers of the content they are promoting.

 

 

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polysail wrote:

Nothing in my post is a strawman argument~ not even close.  My point was~ and still is prepare for unfairness in open markets.  It always happens.

Anyhow ~ I'm off to go do something productive~ I've got nothing more of value to contribute to this conversation.

 

You all have fun arguing with the obvious trolly purple cookiemonster.

 An "open market" is one that provides free access to everyone. 

How is having a promotion unfair to the open market?

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Jacob Cagney wrote
Cutting your losses? What losses?

It costs ZERO money to list items on the Marketplace.

 

Time is money.

 


Jacob Cagney wrote:


ChinRey wrote:


Jacob Cagney wrote:

So you are saying that you refuse to participate in something that is freely available because of some slight that you feel?

No, I'm saying that this entire Marketplace thing is beginning to look so shady I'm not really interested.

 

Edit: And those are my final words in this particular discussion. I have better things to spend my time on. Those who don't understand by now never will.

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Jacob Cagney wrote:


DartAgain wrote:

Well, no point in making points that others have made about your post, they've covered some of it pretty well.

My take on it is that unless LL changes course in the way they do business, in 5 years you won't be here for me to tell you that i told you so.


Sorry, but that really isn't saying much.  If you go back to the old SLExchange archived forums, and old SL Archived forums from 5-7 years ago, the same thing was being said then as you are saying here.

And yet Second Life is still around.

Oh sure, it's not a new prediction. I myself however, do not suffer from premature extrapolation.

Your argument seems to be that we don't have the right to feel the way that we do, which is strange to me. Nevertheless as I said we decline. So some complainer(s), somewhere is spot on in describing why that decline is happening. If not us and these many varied arguments in this thread then who is rightly identifying the reasons for the decline?

 

 

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

There are two very distinct reasons why "Giant Up-Updates" are sent out:

1. Someone pulled the trigger too soon, or set a hard date and was not willing to flex it .. or in some fashion established exterior and unrelated deadlines, or

2. We missed a critical thing that should have been caught, wasn't (for whatever reason) and now HAS to be rolled out or really bigger badder things will happen.

We've been through both. I personally have been responsible for both.

I try like crazy to NEVER employ #1 as it really messes with customer confidence to turn out a known buggy product. Then when you can't defend the decision in any valid manner .. you look like a real doofus. I prefer not to be doofus in any form of appearance.

I have fallen victim to #2 for many reasons, none of which really matter to this discussion. Suffice to say I work hard to avoid #2 too.

The cutover from XStreet to Marketplace was without a doubt the result of exterior meddling in the schedule. The fact that the entire XStreet structure was up and running for some time afterward, added to the many MANY valid objections and bug reports posted here and in JIRA about SLM, lead to the only reasonable conclusion: It didn't go so well.

Here's the bottom line for me Jacob: When they spring something on us (like the recent email promotion for only a few select Merchants) .. it turns out wrong. When my experience and understanding lead to me to realize there are speedbumps ahead, I will do my best to call them out and help suggest a course around them. If you choose to see it as me slamming or bad-mouthing people .. that's your view.

But I dang sure won't sit idly by, letting known problems go unaddressed .. especially not when those problems impact me, a project in which I'm involved or invested .. and when options exist that would completely avoid the obstacles.

In short, I'd rather think first .. then act with a bit of an idea what I'm doing. I find it preferable to always RE-acting to a situation that didn't really need to BE a "situation" in the first place.

I agree with you that the cutover from Xstreet probably was because of "exterior meddling" but chances are, those exterior issues were outside of the control of Linden Lab.

But in all honesty, wasn't it better to have both sites running side by side for a while to allow for the core bugs to be addressed on the new system before the old system was shut off, instead of just shutting off the old system in favor of the new system before the core functionality of the new system was ready?

How did the email promotion turn out wrong?

How were you personally affected by the email promotion?

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Darrius Gothly wrote:


Jacob Cagney wrote:

It also kinda shows that Linden Lab didn't set out in advance to have some grand promotion.  It might have been done quickly if they were watching metrics and saw that the holiday slump for marketplace sales was already in full swing. 

How in blue blazes does picking six select Merchants for a one-time email promotion add anything of measurable value to the Marketplace metrics? If THAT was their goal .. OMG we need a REALLY long talk with their thinkers and planners.

(Sorry .. but that one just doesn't even pass the sniff test .. from 10 feet away)

Maybe their intention wasn't to generate sales, but generate traffic?

Just like Amazon or Ebay or any other company sending out an email to their registered users.  I would venture to guess that the whole purpose of the emails is to generate interest in the web site.  Regardless of what is actually promoted in the email itself.

Example:

I got emails from a Star Trek web site advertising sales on some of their products.  One of which is a set of BBQ Grill tools.

By your standards, if the email sent to me did not cause me to buy the set of grill tools, then the email was of no measurable value.

However, even though I didn't buy the grill tools, I took a look around at the other stuff they have on their web site. 

So the email didn't generate a sale, but it DID generate traffic to the web site.

So the email DID have a measurable value, in page counts.

Sure, the Linden Lab email promotion had no direct value to you, but it didn't cost you anything, and you didn't lose anything either. 

So if the email had no value to you, cost you nothing, and lost you nothing, why are you upset?

 

 

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DartAgain wrote:


Jacob Cagney wrote:


DartAgain wrote:

Well, no point in making points that others have made about your post, they've covered some of it pretty well.

My take on it is that unless LL changes course in the way they do business, in 5 years you won't be here for me to tell you that i told you so.


Sorry, but that really isn't saying much.  If you go back to the old SLExchange archived forums, and old SL Archived forums from 5-7 years ago, the same thing was being said then as you are saying here.

And yet Second Life is still around.

Oh sure, it's not a new prediction. I myself however, do not suffer from premature extrapolation.

Your argument seems to be that we don't have the right to feel the way that we do, which is strange to me. Nevertheless as I said we decline. So some complainer(s), somewhere is spot on in describing why that decline is happening. If not us and these many varied arguments in this thread then who is rightly identifying the reasons for the decline?

 

 

Never said people do not have the right to feel the way they do.  What I AM saying is that I do not understand why people feel the way they do over the email promotion.

That is the underlying thing I am trying to understand. Why do people feel the way they do about the promotion?

I just don't get it.

No one paid to be in the promotion.

No one paid to see the promotion banner.

No one paid to get the promotion email.

No one lost sales because of the email promotion.

No information has been released that indicates that anyone even actually sold items because of the email.

All indications seem to be that Linden Lab used the email, and selected the sellers, in order to try to generate traffic to, and hopefully sales through, the Marketplace.

I just plain do not understand why the company trying to generate traffic to the web site is seen as some as a bad thing, and gotten them all upset about it.

This is what I am trying to understand.

 

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Traffic to the web site means nothing. Page hits mean nothing. Extra revenue to LL for running a promotion from the sales of those products on sale means something only to LL and the selected merchants, no one else.

Customer spending is finite, you can squeeze it a little but you can only increase it so much. And when you do, someone is going to miss out on sales. Usually smaller merchants. Smaller merchants are the first to leave having no consistent profit to keep them here.

Aside from LL making more commission off these sales, what other positive effect does it have? None. So why not stay out of the market manipulation and let a generic "shop for the holidays" graphic take over and let the free market run its own course. A simpler approach that didn't manipulate would have a boost without favoritism.

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Okay .. duh on me. I finally see the reason for our disconnect.

You are measuring things on the "how long are my arms" scale.

Those of us objecting (not upset mind you .. just objecting .. strenuously) to the email promotion are measuring things in the "how big is the world" scale.

When you have stepped back and looked at things from our scale .. come on back and I'll help get your nerves calmed down again.

.. tip 'o the hat ...

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DartAgain wrote:

Traffic to the web site means nothing. Page hits mean nothing. Extra revenue to LL for running a promition from the sales of those products on sale means something only to LL and the selected merchants, no one else.

Customer spending is finite, you can squeeze it a little but you can only increase it so much. And when you do, someone is going to miss out on sales. Usually smaller merchants. Smaller merchants are the first to leave having no consistent profit to keep them here.

Aside from LL making more commission off these sales, what other positive effect does it have? None. So why not stay out of the market manipulation and let a generic "shop for the holidays" graphic take over and let the free market run its own course. A simpler approach that didn't manipulate would have a boost without favoritism.

So my understanding of what you wrote it this:

You do not care how many people see the items on the web site.

You do not care if anyone sells items on the marketplace, unless it is you who is doing the selling.

The email had no value to you, personally.

The email potentially has the chance to reduce sales to some sellers, by potentially increasing sales to other sellers. (something that already exists, as you so freely pointed out, by the finite number of customers/spending dollars)

You think Linden Lab should not advertise the Marketplace, or its sellers, because you personally think it is manipulating the system when they try to generate interest in the web site.

Gotcha

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

Okay .. duh on me. I finally see the reason for our disconnect.

You are measuring things on the "how long are my arms" scale.

Those of us objecting (not upset mind you .. just objecting .. strenuously) to the email promotion are measuring things in the "how big is the world" scale.

When you have stepped back and looked at things from our scale .. come on back and I'll help get your nerves calmed down again.

.. tip 'o the hat ...

Help me to understand what your view of the email promotion is, and I might understand better why you objecting.

From my view, anything that tries to generate interest in the Marketplace, that potentially translates into sales for the users is a good thing. Especially when it didn't cost the users any money.

 

 

 

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This one particularly needs restating .. more because I want there to be no misunderstanding despite your best efforts to keep mixing it round sideways ...


Jacob Cagney wrote:

2. So you honestly believe that someone selling copybotted content should be freely allowed to participate in a Linden Lab sponsored promotion of their products? And 2 seconds after the emails hit users in-boxes, people would be threatening to sue Linden Lab for partnering with content stealers. 

No. As I have said very plainly before and will say again: I want those thieves and miscreants that are doing improper things with the Marketplace to make themselves plainly evident to Linden Lab. I fully expect that any crook dumb enough to send LL complete and absolute proof of their misdeeds will be rewarded for their efforts with banning, account removal and possible legal action.

I trust LL will not let blatant theft pass under their noses without taking action. I did NOT say applying for and offering to pay for space in a promotion guaranteed acceptance. If you read that into what I said .. you need to read again.

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Umm .. what were you doing when they made the cutover? My memory is that one day there was XStreet, the next there was SLM. There was no "overlap" .. where BOTH systems were operational.

Am I just suffering a particularly severe recollection of events? Cuz if so .. and it's totally possible .. would someone from outside this convo tell me so please?

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Jacob...

 

Although not one of them because I know better, there are many merchants who PAY for listing enhancements.

 

Then along comes LL and super boosts, for FREE, the competitors of these merchants who PAY for advertising.

 

If in your world, this is a fair scheme by what is supposed to be just the platform operator, then that's a world where I probably need a special passport to visit. A very special passport indeed!

 

THAT Jacob, is why this was I'll conceived and unfair to the Merchants who paid to advertise, only to have potential customers directed towards their competitors.

 

Surprised that this isn't pretty obvious really.

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Xstreet remained operational alongside SLM but only for certain functions, such as configuration of ANS settings and also old transaction reporting.

 

As far as I recall though, it did not operate in parallel as a delivery mechanism or for purchases via website.

 

Maybe the confusion is around magic box vs direct delivery which did run in parallel for objects with copy permission?

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