Marketplace Beta Search - New Information

[JacquelineGottier]

I have been researching and testing your new search system on the marketplace website. I have also been questioning other designers about it. The conclusion is that the sales have dropped for everybody, leaving me to believe that it is VERY faulty. Your new search engine does not allow products to stay up high among other listings for longer periods of time causing them to drop immediately, or rendering them impossible to promote.

One of the designers I interviewed told me that before the engine updates he was making around 10k daily. Now he only makes 1k, while having fully detailed listings, including names, tags, features and descriptions. While I attempt searching "dress" on marketplace, only lesser brands of very poor quality pop up, despite having NO details in their descriptions, names, features, etc.

And one more thing. Dakota Linden wrote to me than people have to put now very well-matched tags in the descriptions and features. So if you're looking just a dress, you should to find just the dresses? Am I right? So please, tell me, why i'm searching a "dress", I see a lot of stuffs like shirts, pants, shoes!!?? This is very unfair. 

Your new Search Engine works really badly. Hundreds of people are writing to you than they didn't earn any money now and you nothing to do with it.

[Grumpity Linden]

Hi! 

First, we understand and appreciate the frustration merchants have faced when changes to search impact their sales.   We had tried to offset some of these frustrations by having a long beta period that allowed merchants to test search results for their products before the changes became permanent, and we took a lot of feedback and bug reports during this time and made changes based on the feedback.  We carefully monitor the overal and daily marketplace sales volume and assure you that it has remained steady and upbeat since the Search changes deployed.  However, we also appreciate that it's cold comfort to those merchants whose sales have been negatively affected.  

Here are a few pointers for making sure that your items can be found by relevant searches:

* Make sure you pick a clear, concise item name. Using a number designation like BD-802 will not help find your item if the item is Boys Denim Jeans.

* One thing merchants forget to fill out is the Features List.  This can reinforce the keywords and item names in Marketplace Search.

* The most important change is the new conversions algorithm.  This new algorithm means that over time the Marketplace Search will better learn what items are being purchased based on search.

* Make sure that you use only appropriate keywords.
Using inappropriate keywords on your listing will cause your items to sink in relevance because your item will be shown in search returns, but never purchased, or purchased far less than other items that were searched, and purchased, using the same keywords.

With all that said, there are still a few open bugs with Marketplace Search - for example, the overly plentiful fuzzy search results.   We're working on getting those under control.  Thank you for your continued patience as we work through these. 

[ChinRey]

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Grumpity Linden wrote:

* The most important change is the new conversions algorithm.  This new algorithm means that over time the Marketplace Search will better learn what items are being purchased based on search.

---

Are you saying the learning feature is based on sales from each specific keyword???

If I understand you right (I may not of course) that is actually a Fatal mistake with a capital F. Such a function will only work for the most popular keywords since you need quite a lot of sales before you have enough data. But even worse: it will only change the listing order of the original top 60-or-so. Any listing that starts off lower than that isn't likely to ever make a sale at all.

[Iren Tinkel]

For me marketplace and secondlife websites are extremely slow. While i wait for loading page i forget what i am searching for. Terrible.

My income fell down 50% since august 2016 and 75% comparing september 2015. Nice job, LL.

[Pamela Galli]

---

Grumpity Linden wrote:

Hi! 

First, we understand and appreciate the frustration merchants have faced when changes to search impact their sales.   We had tried to offset some of these frustrations by having a long beta period that allowed merchants to test search results for their products before the changes became permanent, and we took a lot of feedback and bug reports during this time and made changes based on the feedback.  We carefully monitor the overal and daily marketplace sales volume and assure you that it has remained steady and upbeat since the Search changes deployed.  However, we also appreciate that it's cold comfort to those merchants whose sales have been negatively affected.  

Here are a few pointers for making sure that your items can be found by relevant searches:

* Make sure you pick a clear, concise item name. Using a number designation like BD-802 will not help find your item if the item is Boys Denim Jeans.

 

* One thing merchants forget to fill out is the Features List.  This can reinforce the keywords and item names in Marketplace Search.

 

* The most important change is the new conversions algorithm.  This new algorithm means that over time the Marketplace Search will better learn what items are being purchased based on search.

* Make sure that you use only appropriate keywords.

Using inappropriate keywords on your listing will cause your items to sink in relevance because your item will be shown in search returns, but never purchased, or purchased far less than other items that were searched, and purchased, using the same keywords.

With all that said, there are still a few open bugs with Marketplace Search - for example, the overly plentiful fuzzy search results.   We're working on getting those under control.  Thank you for your continued patience as we work through these. 

---

Thanks, I will invest the many hours I need to update. I did not know that Features was even included in search. 

[Iren Tinkel]

Yeah, really, great advice to check keywords and fill features for people who put tons of efforts and money to move their products - customer service, paying adverts, updating, introducing and whatever for many years and now got their products burried under floor just because keywords and features. Really?

[Pamela Galli]

I am not sure, but I think before, Features did not count in search.

[Arwen Serpente]

FYI, Pamela, features have always counted. Titles, features and keywords. Descriptions do not.

[Pamela Galli]

Thanks Arwen!

[ChinRey]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I am not sure, but I think before, Features did not count in search.

---

As Arwen said, it always has. And it's of course nice they've kept that opening. Especially for the keyword spammers of course. It seemed like this new search left them completely out but all they have to do is move their spam from the keyword field to the features fields and they're back to business as usual. LL cares for everybody in SL!

[Grumpity Linden]

ChinRey, you know the old saying about how if there's two ways to interpret my words and one of them makes you mad, I meant the other one?  

So - of course not! What we mean is that sales rank is one of the factors that affect future search rank, but not on a per-keyword basis. 

[Grumpity Linden]

Iren, are you using Internet Explorer?  If so, please try a different browser (Chrome or Firefox would be best).  If not, please file a jira with your system info.  

(Whirly's comment above points to the known issue with IE).

And please do try to follow some of the tips on the forums for cleaning up keywords & other listing improvements.  If you need assistance, please file a support ticket and Dakota should be able to help you out!

Thank you!

 

[ChinRey]

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Grumpity Linden wrote:

ChinRey, you know the old saying about how if there's two ways to interpret my words and one of them makes you mad, I meant the other one?  

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Glad to hear that

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Grumpity Linden wrote:

ChinRey, you know the old saying about how if there's two ways to interpret my words and one of them makes you mad, I meant the other one?  

---

That brings up another question: when is that future? Here are two pictures I posted fairly early in the discussion showing problems with the new search. They're jsut as relevant today after almost two months:

Top search results for keyword "house":



 

Autofill suggestions for keyword "Door":



 

Results and suggestins like that aren't very helpful, I don't have to tell you that.

 

Speaking of time, here's something I wrote when we had the first Big Argument about the new search:

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ChinRey wrote:

Now, this project went off to a bad start, and it certainly wasn't the right one to start with anyway, But now that it seems to be on track, the best thing to do is to finish it and let all the other issues wait.'

Don't let it stop there though. There are so many problems with MP that should have been fixed years ago and one isolated upgrade isn't going to make that much difference to the big picture. You'll have to keep on delivering. And it's going to be really tough. Many merchants have been banging their heads against the wall for so long now they simply can't believe there's finally a hope for a breakthrough.

---

 (https://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Marketplace-Beta-Search-New-Information/m-p/2981533#M54477)

That was almost a year ago and the work is still not finished! I can't imagine that anybody expected it to take that long! And as I said back then, the search algorithm is only one of many problems with MP and it wasn't even one of the biggest. I'm very fond of the saying that it doesn't matter how fast you move as long as you're moving in the right direction, but at this speed we'll be halfway through the century before we have a presentable Marketplace.

[Pamela Galli]

 Those search results  are pathetic. The last time they (e.g. Brodsky and Grant) developed a new search algorithm they had to tweak it to keep the first pages from being just a catalog of one Linden items. INstitutional memory is not strong at Linden Lab.

My sales are now more small individual items than entire room sets,  the opposite of what it has been.

 

ETA Also seeing more sales of older pre mesh things rather newer things.

[Chic Aeon]

I have to revisit this discussion also .

 

For awhile it seemed like the update search  wasn't affecting me at all. Then something changed and I had very few sales. Then things got close to normal and then back to almost no sales at all for a few days.

 

This is NOT my norm .

Things are better now and I am selling surrounds again (they dropped to page four and then only a kit -- normally they were number two or three in the list).

 

BUT as has been said in this thread. Finding what you want is even trickier than before with more C**P items in the mix on the first page you see. Certainly not a good "aren't we a wonderful platform" material for new folks to see that don't know those items are left over from 2005.

 

MOSTLY I have been selling the same very niche products that are a both low cost and that were fairly good historial sellers for MANY MANY YEARS (yes I have updated and improved them with new versions, but still the database thinks they go back a very long time - hence sales record).

Tunnel (fairly new but definitely an unusual product), camping cot, camera equipment with poses, barbed wire fence, flowing stream (not all that great I admit LOL).  The last day or so I sold some surrounds.

 

What saddens me in an overall way is that the NEW and BETTER products of everyone are moving to the end of the line. I have much better items for sale that no one apparently ever sees unless they search MY store after seeing an item in world.

 

This is so not good on any level. And sales of $1 items gets The Lab nothing so not good for them either.  DEMOTE THAT GUY OR THAT TEAM that worked on this !!!   LOL

 

I have three revenue steams so a messed up Marketplace is not the end of the world. I know some folks whose income has dropped dramatically (like 75%). Doesn't give them a lot of reason to stay.

 

Thank the goddess for EVENTS! For me anyway.

 

[Pamela Galli]

Yes, older things seem to be getting a boost, I added that to my post. 

At this point, if I was LL my top priority would be to stop the MP looking like Freebie Island. Amazon doesn't show me the cheapest things in a category, but moderate price good quality stuff. 

I commend you for doing events. I just can't make myself.

[Chic Aeon]

Actually I love the events. I have -- in some manner -- been doing them for years, just no regularly. I like to watch the items come in and see the setups happen. I am apparently a commercial voyeur

 

Also of note, all the items that are CURRENTLY selling regularly are $150 for the most part. A couple at $100. The surrounds are more of course but they don't sell as often as those other items I mentioned. 

 

It is all very strange. Hopefully it will work itself out.

[Chic Aeon]

Out of curiosity I did that same search Wednesday 8 PM SL time and got a very similar page (those items were in the mix up top). The only item over $100 was a (two of the same thing)  heart in the sand item (hence not a house so how the hell did it get in there).

 

From a broad perspective -- not just as a seller -- this is very discouraging.

 

[Pamela Galli]

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Chic Aeon wrote:

Actually I love the events. I have -- in some manner -- been doing them for years, just no regularly. I like to watch the items come in and see the setups happen. I am apparently a commercial voyeur

 

Also of note, all the items that are CURRENTLY selling regularly are $150 for the most part. A couple at $100. The surrounds are more of course but they don't sell as often as those other items I mentioned. 

 

It is all very strange. Hopefully it will work itself out.

---

Well generally one Linden items will indeed have more sales of individual copies -- but not so many will bring in as much MONEY as better quality, more expensive items. My prefernce, as seller and buyer, is to see things that are of sufficient quality to warrant something beyond rock bottom prices. (Yes, some good quality things are free, but that is OT .)

 

[Deltango Vale]

So I realized I need some new pajamas. Off to Marketplace I go.

Apparel -> Women's->Women's Intimates->Lounge and Sleepwear. Yikes, 415 pages of results!

Okay, let me get rid of the mesh results (I hate mesh). What? no tick-boxes for mesh / non-mesh? Damn.

Then I try the search box at the top. I type "pajamas" and go to the drop-down list, expecting to see a menu structure that will lead to Lounge and Sleepwear, but all I get is Apparel. Holy crap, 1218 pages! My shopping trip comes to a screeching halt.

The system is so crude as to be non-functional.

A deeper category structure would be helpful, but I'm not sure merchants could use it properly. The number of merchants who don't know the difference between sale and rental of land, for example, is astonishing. Asking them to put their products into an even more sophisticated category structure is probably too demanding.

A better approach might be tick-boxes in conjunction with a word search. I'd type 'pajamas' into search then filter the results by various criteria tick-boxes (mod, trans, copy, mesh, layer, prim, flexi, etc.)

[bifurlover3]

I contend that the boolean search does not work as intended.  I search for "women and mesh and skin NOT male" and I the only result I get are 8 body appliers of a male applier.  What the heck???? I specifically said NOT male and all I get is male.  What is the problem with the search engine?

[Cindy Evanier]

5 minutes ago, bifurlover3 said:

I contend that the boolean search does not work as intended.  I search for "women and mesh and skin NOT male" and I the only result I get are 8 body appliers of a male applier.  What the heck???? I specifically said NOT male and all I get is male.  What is the problem with the search engine?

I just tried your search "women and mesh and skin NOT male"  and dont see the things you show here in the first page of 96 but if you remove the word "male" you see those images

[LittleMe Jewell]

41 minutes ago, bifurlover3 said:

I contend that the boolean search does not work as intended.  I search for "women and mesh and skin NOT male" and I the only result I get are 8 body appliers of a male applier.  What the heck???? I specifically said NOT male and all I get is male.  What is the problem with the search engine?

 

Put your boolean words in UPPER CASE:   "women AND mesh AND skin NOT male"

HOWEVER, you are correct in that the Search does not "fully" work as it should.  Even if it did, people spam the keywords so bad that it still would give you all sorts of stuff that you do not want.

[Pamela Galli]

LL has a long-standing preference for preserving spammed keywords, as shown by their refusal to cut the size of the keyword field.

[Paul Hexem]

13 hours ago, Pamela Galli said:

LL has a long-standing preference for preserving spammed keywords, as shown by their refusal to cut the size of the keyword field.

Gotta get their 10%