Guest Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I totally agree Froukje , as a creator to creator, this is a mess and will make an even bigger mess if it goes live in its current state. It took me years to build the Akaesha brand with products that outlast the test of time. Our flagship best seller product and a household SL name today is no where in sight in the new search . In the current marketplace it is front page in any relevant search and it has been that way for years. We take visibility quite seriously and we work hard for it. Only to be replaced by something unrated and hardly relevant uploaded a month ago. If only keywords optimizations are factored in then eventually everyone will have the exact same keywords because everyone's keywords are public information and easily visible by data mining. Is that what we are going towards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teagan Parnas Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 If this is how the MP is going to be then i give up listing on there, its already hard enough to be noticed because of so much old junk, or people who cheat the system. One of my items has been the top selling under Celebrations, but with this beta its no where to be seen, unless you change the filter to Best Selling, which i'm not sure people do ever change. I have never understood how relevance was worked out, now i'm even more confused... Searching Teddy bear..relevance..Celebrations, and the results,......does seem to favour certain sellers, and of course the name of the store. Maybe i will change my store name too, Teddy bears,birthday,Christmas,Free, Flowers,Halloween, Independence,July, decorations gift Store. I agree with many here that if LL want to make a better working MP, they need first get rid of some of the junk...either people pay a small fee each month to list or have to register each month to show they are still active, one click of a prim inworld to show you are acually logging in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyPetunias Audion Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Sorry I did not reply to a specific post. But it was mentioned I think on page three about charging a dollar per item.. I do not think that will fix the isseus....tossing money at things never fixes things.. And it woudl keep smaller creators like me from putting stuff in the marketplace.. where there is more traffic than you get in world... So I would have to give up my inworld land and store just to pay for my market place listtings.. That would not make it very much fun or very productive and the little creators as my self will just stop. I think some things are creator created problems.. Like I put in Maitreya since that I the mesh body I have... and I will accept Omega appliers as well....for the search results.. but I get results where the creators themselves. use Maitreya for their key terms.....and their items does not work with the body or does not have the applies. They are just looking for Lindens.. I believe.. and tossing one linden per item will not fix it...Maybe giving a smaller keyword space could cut down on some of it.. but it will always be those out there who will spam and abuse ... and there is no 100% fool proof way to fix it. That would be the only issue I have is from creators themselves, not nessasarily the marketplace itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polymath Snuggler Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I'm just going to assume this behavior is unintended behavior. As such I submitted a bug JIRA on the topic. We'll see how it goes. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-10688 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 LadyPetunias Audion wrote: tossing money at things never fixes things. Are you sure? We could do a test: toss some money at me and I'll tell you if it fixed anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 polysail wrote: I'm just going to assume this behavior is unintended behavior. As such I submitted a bug JIRA on the topic. We'll see how it goes. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-10688 Added a comment to the JIRA. You may not be completely happy with it but hopefully not too unhappy either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Teagan Parnas wrote: I have never understood how relevance was worked out, now i'm even more confused... The old system is easy to figure out. I've already posted a link to an explanation earlier in the thread but just in case, here it is again: https://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Marketplace-Review-Questions/m-p/2969942#M54007 I haven't had time to study the new one in detail but so far it seems even easier to figure out and manipulate. It's clearly heavily based on keyword placement and possibly keyword frequency and that really is a recipe for disaster. The early websearch engines used to do their rankings that way and it's why it was so easy for two small upstarts named Google and Fast to overrun them and take over the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Reading and thinking through everything written here so far, this is my impression: "We have also made changes for search to scale better as more content and categories are added to the Marketplace" Nobody's commented on that yet and it's very positive of course. "We’ve made infrastructure changes to improve the relevance of search results" No, you haven't, quite the contrary. My first test seemed positive there but on closer examination it doesn't seem to perform any better than the old one overall and considerably worse much of the time. Right now I think the best solution is to rename the new search engine from "Marketplace Search Beta" to "Marketplace Search Alpha". Because that is what it is, really. A great idea but hardly more than a proof of concept at this stage. I was going to write a lot more here but quite honestly, right now I have this feeling of apathy and resignation. Am I the only one who just can't shake off the feeling that nothing good's gonna come out of this anyway? And that nobody at LL will ever take into consideration - or even read - the comments we've written here? I used to have the same feeling about the Moles but they really got their act together and proved me wrong and I was really happy about that. I'd be just as happy if the MP team did the same, so please LL, surprise me! I know you can do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 ChinRey wrote: I was going to write a lot more here but quite honestly, right now I have this feeling of apathy and resignation. Am I the only one who just can't shake off the feeling that nothing good's gonna come out of this anyway? And that nobody at LL will ever take into consideration - or even read - the comments we've written here? ---------------------- Are you kidding, why do you think I sound so bitter about all this? We have been through this exact same "here's our new crap innovation" thing with them so many times, where out of the blue they decide to destroy my business. Only now everyone is so tired of trying to fend them off we all feel that apathy and resignation. Except I have a family to support, so I can't give up, I have to keep begging for mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dil Spitz Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 It would be nice if MP could remember my last used settings. So for me its 'Newest First' Offer a smoother way for the shop-owner to referencing a demo-version. Goal must be that we (customers) find the demo easy and the shopowners are encouraged more easily to link them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Pamela Galli wrote: ChinRey wrote: I was going to write a lot more here but quite honestly, right now I have this feeling of apathy and resignation. Am I the only one who just can't shake off the feeling that nothing good's gonna come out of this anyway? And that nobody at LL will ever take into consideration - or even read - the comments we've written here? ---------------------- Are you kidding, why do you think I sound so bitter about all this? We have been through this exact same "here's our new crap innovation" thing with them so many times, where out of the blue they decide to destroy my business. Only now everyone is so tired of trying to fend them off we all feel that apathy and resignation. Except I have a family to support, so I can't give up, I have to keep begging for mercy. Poor Grumpy Linden if he is the one who is stuck having to read all this. The apathy shows in how few have posted here. All the many times Commerce Team has asked what they can do to improve things and none of them ever happen. Even the simplest thing like getting the search under the ITEMS TAB to only list items and not Merchants and stores. Only Linden Lab knows what the ratio of sales to page views is but I'll guess it's abysmal. I've probably abandoned Market Place searches over 95% of the time with out buying because how bad it is. eta: maybe we could cross our fingers and hope that this current "upgrade" is being done so they can fix the other problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I suspect it is not only apathy but that few read the blogs or forums. (Because the forums are so horribly broken among other things.) I posted the links in the inworld commerce group, maybe word will get out. I cant think that people will be happy with what their storefronts look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yanik Lytton Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Won't even open for me. Is that a good start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I just noticed another peculiarity with the new search function. I did a search for Coniston - a name I use for some of my own buildings - on the old and new MP. The old one came up with my 13 houses plus two nice pictures of the RL Coniston. The new one came up with the same results (sorted in a way that clearly showed the significance of keyword placement) but also four hits that didn't seem to have any connection to the search word whatsoever. I checked the source code for the listings, I checked the sellers' stores and I couldn't find that word or anything resembling it anywhere. So, 15 matching results and four non-matching, that's a failure rate of almost 25%. JIRA at: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-10694 Pamela Galli wrote: Are you kidding, why do you think I sound so bitter about all this? No, I wasn't kidding but it was a rhetorical question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Ceriano Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 First, thank you for working on the MP issues and for asking a feedback. I'd not want to be in your shoes at this moment :smileywink: I have always questioned the wisdom of the relevance sorting, so the first thing I did is sorting my shop by relevance and was very surprised. It sounds to be exactly the opposite of what one should expect : the Beta gives as results, on the first page, what I sell the less. As I use the relevance to delete or improve the dunce caps of my store, the good news is I won't have to scroll down and hit the last page number. Then I seeked the general MP with different keywords that are important for my business and, indeed as some said before, I was suggested old creepy things mostly. This is not good for customers because (well) I guess they seek for favorited items (an assumption of mines). Unless you got a sudden tendency to egalitarism, back from the Burning Man with new opinions about birds, clear water and life. Right I tease you but there is a real mess on that point ; sincerely wish you all the best in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DartAgain Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 My favorite highlights thus far: Grumpity: "This may seem counterintuitive, but Beta Search will be slow at first because it's not getting enough traffic." Translation: We'll get it off my laptop when it goes live. Some Martian said: "A search for MARTIAN items also gives us everything made by Loretta Martian, Samantha62 Martian, Arletta Martian, etc, etc. If I wanted to find these Merchants I'd search under rhe Merchants tab. Merchants are NOT an item." This one speaks for itself, and all Martians I think. Hunnihope deduced: "A pair of Blue Boots shouldnt come up in searches for Pink Fluffy pillow, but thats the reality we get." This is so much deeper than it appears at first glance. Athena asked: "Why LL aren't you just addressing the specific things that people have asked for?" This one only hurts when I laugh. Pam swore: "And stop $#@%ing with my business, LL." Indeed. I'm guessing the privilege will cost somewhere between 25%-40% in Sansar. Nethya of the bulging vein and a mere 36 posts said: "Whoever comes up with these revolutionary marketplace 'ideas' is a moron," You get used to it after a while. Personally I blame it on a lack of good management and substance abuse in the workplace. Sassy enquired: "What business problem are you trying to solve here?" This gets points for getting to the heart of the matter with a bone saw. ChinRey used a more blunt object: "Or to put it another way: will suggestions, ideas and other feedback posted in this thread be considered at all or are we just wasting our time arguing here?" It goes like this, please test ideas we already decided upon and we'll skim your answers for the lowest hanging fruit that are the latest bugs we introduced. Silly Chin. Spica whispered: "Is L.L. deliberately trying to further bork the SLM to force peeps to migrate over to Sansar where that marketplace will work much better? Is that the plan? Hmmmmmm!?" Just because it's been far too long since we had a conspiracy theory. polysail resigned to: "I'm just going to assume this behavior is unintended behavior." For the mental health tip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Perrie Juran wrote: Pamela Galli wrote: ChinRey wrote: I was going to write a lot more here but quite honestly, right now I have this feeling of apathy and resignation. Am I the only one who just can't shake off the feeling that nothing good's gonna come out of this anyway? And that nobody at LL will ever take into consideration - or even read - the comments we've written here? ---------------------- Are you kidding, why do you think I sound so bitter about all this? We have been through this exact same "here's our new crap innovation" thing with them so many times, where out of the blue they decide to destroy my business. Only now everyone is so tired of trying to fend them off we all feel that apathy and resignation. Except I have a family to support, so I can't give up, I have to keep begging for mercy. Poor Grumpy Linden if he is the one who is stuck having to read all this. The apathy shows in how few have posted here. All the many times Commerce Team has asked what they can do to improve things and none of them ever happen. Even the simplest thing like getting the search under the ITEMS TAB to only list items and not Merchants and stores. Only Linden Lab knows what the ratio of sales to page views is but I'll guess it's abysmal. I've probably abandoned Market Place searches over 95% of the time with out buying because how bad it is. eta: maybe we could cross our fingers and hope that this current "upgrade" is being done so they can fix the other problems. Ebbe is the one who needs to read it. The marketplace is huge, and it and merchants are treated like something of minor importance to SL. Oh how I miss Xstreet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Pamela Galli wrote: Perrie Juran wrote: Pamela Galli wrote: ChinRey wrote: I was going to write a lot more here but quite honestly, right now I have this feeling of apathy and resignation. Am I the only one who just can't shake off the feeling that nothing good's gonna come out of this anyway? And that nobody at LL will ever take into consideration - or even read - the comments we've written here? ---------------------- Are you kidding, why do you think I sound so bitter about all this? We have been through this exact same "here's our new crap innovation" thing with them so many times, where out of the blue they decide to destroy my business. Only now everyone is so tired of trying to fend them off we all feel that apathy and resignation. Except I have a family to support, so I can't give up, I have to keep begging for mercy. Poor Grumpy Linden if he is the one who is stuck having to read all this. The apathy shows in how few have posted here. All the many times Commerce Team has asked what they can do to improve things and none of them ever happen. Even the simplest thing like getting the search under the ITEMS TAB to only list items and not Merchants and stores. Only Linden Lab knows what the ratio of sales to page views is but I'll guess it's abysmal. I've probably abandoned Market Place searches over 95% of the time with out buying because how bad it is. eta: maybe we could cross our fingers and hope that this current "upgrade" is being done so they can fix the other problems. Ebbe is the one who needs to read it. The marketplace is huge, and it and merchants are treated like something of minor importance to SL. Oh how I miss Xstreet. /me points to the LAB CHAT THREAD. The first guest for that is none other than Ebbe and today is the last day to submit your questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Perrie Juran wrote: /me points to the LAB CHAT THREAD. The first guest for that is none other than Ebbe and today is the last day to submit your questions. Worth a try at least: https://community.secondlife.com/t5/Upcoming-Events-and-Activities/Introducing-Lab-Chat-A-New-Q-amp-A-Show-in-Second-Life/m-p/2978745#M15002 Edit: I don't have much hope though. Ebbe and Oz have managed to turn almost the entire rest of Linden Lab in a far more positive direction but MP remains stuck. They have to know about the problems by now and they must have tried to do something about it already so there must be some reason why they can't do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Metropolitan Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 All right, I'll bite. I just tried a quick search on the beta. "red lipstick appliers" without the quotes around it. My brown lipsticks demo show up high in the results. The word "red" is nowhere in the description, features, title, or keywords. "Red" does not appear in ANY part of this product entry. BUT the product DID use the red lipstick product as a starting point using auto-fill. Same results in non-beta, though different placement in the results. Edit: I just visited my store homepage with "Relevance" selected in the dropdown... which is the default and I'm sure everyone is going to be using. What the... it's just random. And some of the listings on page one THEN appear again on page two, it seems to change constantly. ?!?! If there's rhyme or reason to the listing order here, I sure don't see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I dont think LL asked us a feedback only to NOT read them as some comments are implying. I do know these comments will be read. Please do understand that these changes arent "live" yet and there is room for improvement. In the light to ease up the negativity I would suggest tackling simpler problems rather than taking shortcut solutions to a bigger problem as it seems in the current beta. Start with these Eliminate creator names and store names from search. If we want them searched we can put them in title or keywords. Have a keywords section for merchant stores like youtube allows you to add a small number of keywords to your channel. For example if a store is called "Tony's Pottery house" Tony can add description to the store as (mesh pottery, sculpture etc.) Keep tracking valuable data such as total units sold, price per unit sold, average monthly sales per item Keep tracking user ratings but make it easier for users to leave feedback and not only this encourage users to leave feedback. If you bought anything on other ecom sites you know you are reminded to leave feedback. It only helps overall market. Right now it is so deeply buried that it is not intuitive at all. The more people review items the less the chances of fraudulent or impartial reviews to dominate. Take automated measures to prevent manipulation such as ip masking, click farming, proxying, fraudulent reviews. I know this cannot be perfectly achieved but something is better than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Alaska Metropolitan wrote: My brown lipsticks demo show up high in the results. The word "red" is nowhere in the description, features, title, or keywords. "Red" does not appear in ANY part of this product entry. BUT the product DID use the red lipstick product as a starting point using auto-fill. Yes, that's only to be expected. They didn't even think about the avatar-name-as-searchword issue so why would they remember to correct the auto fill bug? It's a particularly nasty bug btw. Perfectly honest and innocent merchants have had their items delisted because of it. Alaska Metropolitan wrote: Edit: I just visited my store homepage with "Relevance" selected in thedropdown... which is the default and I'm sure everyone is going to be using. What the... it's just random. OK, I guess we've got the new algorithm sorted out now. It's keyword placement. Probably only keyword placement, definitely not keyword density (let's be thankful for small mercies) and not anything not directly keyword related. With no keywords, the listing order is semi-random. Alaska Metropolitan wrote: And some of the listings on page one THEN appear again on page two Oh, they forgot to store listing order between search results pages. For a web programmer that is approximately the same level of blunder as it would be for a mathematician to add two plus two and get five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Cytherion Revnik wrote: I dont think LL asked us a feedback only to NOT read them as some comments are implying. I didn't imply that, I asked. Still no answer but it's to early to say anything yet. Cytherion Revnik wrote: I do know these comments will be read. Please do understand that these changes arent "live" yet and there is room for improvement. In the light to ease up the negativity Yes but some of the issues we've discussed here are so fundamental they should have been sorted out long before the beta stage. There's simply no point in asking for external feedback for a product as unfinished as this. Everything will have to be redone from scratch anyway. What LL could have done if they wanted to, was to open a general discussion how MP search should work. That could have been rather productive although I wouldn't envy the poor people who'd have to shift through all the responses. I can't imagine that this new search will ever be made public and if it is, it will only last a week or two at most before LL is forced to withdraw it. And the developers should have realised this. "Beta testing" something as unfinished as this is just a waste of time. I don't know if this is a true story, probably not, but I've been told that when the new mesh newcomer avatars were introduced last year, there were problems with some of them sinking into the ground. The reason turned out to be that the developers had forgotten to check the elevation height for the avis. Now, as I said, I'm not sure if I believe that story, it's simply too much. But when it comes to the new Market Search Beta, it is actually that level of neglect we're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 Not sure if it's important but I may have spotted a minor bug in the new MP Search: An open search no keyword, all ratings, all categories produces 3797275 listings with the old search engine but only 3543427 with the new. Seems about 200 000 listings didn't make it through the transition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arwen Serpente Posted November 13, 2015 Share Posted November 13, 2015 I can confirm that for my own store, ChinRey. My store has 588 items listed, but new search only show 584, so somehow 4 went MIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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